Big Papi, Say It Ain't So

[Jedieb]

Wow, this is just as big as A-Rod being outed earlier this year. And if you remember, Big Papi had some harsh things to say this February about PED users. I "hate" Papi in a sports sense because of all the pain he's inflicted on the Yanks, but I've always respected the hell out of him. Manny never really surprised me, but this one does. The equivalent for me is if Jeter got busted one day.

One thing is for sure, Big Papi is going to have to eat some media crow the way A-Rod did. And I also think that this second instance of Manny being Manny the user has seriously hurt his HOF chances. I thought this year test and 50 game ban would cost him first round induction, but now you've got TWO positive tests and people are going to just fill in the years between with steroid use. And they're going to do the same thing with Ortiz. His entire BoSox career and power explosion is going to be attributed to PED's. He was always going to be borderline HOF, but there's no way now.

One of the sadder aspects of this continuing saga is that it makes Canseco look more and more credible in regards to 'roids. One thing that came out of his mouth that struck me as newsworthy is that he believes there's a current MEMBER of the HOR that was a user. If you think about it, we shouldn't be surprised. Bodybuilders like Arnold were juicing up in the 70's so there may be some power hitters from that era that used as well. I have a couple of names in my head and one of them breaks my heart.

And Court, I'm sorry about Big Papi. I can guess how this might make you feel.

[Nathanial K'cansce]

So, I don't know about anyone else, but I am frankly fed up with these onesy-twosy leaks from the so called private anon. report. If you are going to leak names, leak the entire frucking list and be done with it.

Also, it was in 2003. When some of the drugs that were being tested for weren't illegal in MLB at that time. They might be now, but not then. To bust someone now for something done back then, if it wasn't on the "no-no" list is fucked up, drug or not. If, indeed, whatever Big Papi tested positive for was "legal" back then, but not now, screen him this year with a more intensive random drug screening. And be done with it. If he fails then, then bam, administer punishment. If not, oh well. If he tested positive for something that was illegal back then, then yes, sucks to be him.

(Manny's fucked anyway, so I have no comment on him.)

Ortiz is in trouble though, if only for what he said at the beginning of the year vs what he told the reporters today. I think he knows what he took, and I think he knows he screwed up.

Also, I heard that the list is known by a select few number of people, including the MLB office. If that is true, why haven't they done anything or brought anything up before all these leaks? I dunno, the media is fucking this over and putting in stories that are detracting from what is out there right now, mainly some interesting wild card races and some tight divisional play.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I honestly think at least 2/3 of the current MLB players have been on steroids. Who knows Canseco could be right and it could be closer to 90%.

[Charley]

I can't say I'm surprised, but my feelings are definitely hurt by this :(

[CMJ]

It's a sad time to be sure. But I do want to know exactly what he tested posivie for. The only soon to be HOF's at this point that would shock me would be Griffey and Maddux. That's about it.

[Figrin D'an]

MLB's handling of the entire steroids issue has been and continues to be an embarrassment. It makes me glad that I am no longer a serious fan.

[CMJ]

Here's a revelation, half of these guys who have tested positive come from Puerto Rico or the Dominican; poor as dirt and will do anything the scouts or the organizations that sign them ask of them. These kids trust these people to get them to the big leagues, and these people will do anything to help them make it because of the chance of financial gain. I rarely, if ever, hear anyone bring this up, but it is something that has crossed my mind.

[Lykaios]

Oh, boy...where to even begin...

You know what really upsets me? It's not even the fact that these guys cheated, cheating has always been part of the game (Shoeless Joe Jackson and the Black Sox Scandal, anyone? No? How about spitballs from pitchers trying to gain an edge on hitters? Or how about the famous greenies in the 60’s? ) and it will always be (tighter as drug policy in MLB may be today, there are still guys cheating today and not necessarily by taking banned substances but today there are still runners in second stealing signs and trying to tip of the batter).
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So yeah, cheating has always been, is and will continue to be part of the game, so it’s not the fact that these guys cheated that really upsets me (now with this, I’m not saying that cheating is ok cause it’s part of the game, am just saying that due to the competitive nature of the game and players playing to win, there will always be some sort of cheating).
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No, what really upsets me is that this list with 103 names (100 undisclosed names, now) is supposed to be a court-sealed document and yet names keep pouring out. Now the last time I checked it was unlawful to leak information from court-sealed docs, yet nobody is doing a damn thing about it. Now, don’t get me wrong I’m all for freedom of speech and people can make their case that such documents are a contradiction of the First Amendment, etc, but my main gripe here and the bottom line is that their disclosure is unlawful and you can’t right a wrong by wronging two rights.
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Am I surprised that lots of players used steroids? No. Am I disappointed? Abso-fuckin-lutely. But players come and go, fans come and go and yet the game (through recessions, player strikes, etc.) endures.
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Why am I not surprised? Really? Babe’s single-season HR record stood atop of the books, unreachable for 34 years and when Maris finally surpassed the Bambino it took him seven more games (in 1927 the regular season was only 155 games against 162 games in 1961 and Maris broke the record on the last day of the regular season).
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Then suddenly 37 years later we have two herculean guys with forearms the size of oak trees hitting balls out of ballparks like they’re swinging at golf balls off the tee? Really? And then one of them goes on to hit 3 straight seasons of 60+ homers? To top it all off, fast forward to 2001 and here comes a once-scrawny-looking kid and breaks the record AGAIN? All in a 5 year span when the record had been unbreakable for 37 years and 34 years before that?
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Please, we didn’t need Canseco to tell us players were juicing, we just needed to open our eyes.

I remember turning to my dad and my friends back in 98 and asking them: “What the hell are these guys taking?” Now, we now.

Bronson Arroyo said it best today, if it was on the counter, players would take it and back then most things weren’t even regulated by the FDA unless it was killing people, so steroids or no steroids, I think it’s safe to say that the majority of the players in The Show had taken some sort of performance enhancers.
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Do they belong in the Hall of Fame? That’s a very good question. They did re-write the record books and even though drugs are illegal, MLB had no drug policy back then. I don’t think an asterisk is the solution either but a footnote on the record books defining the steroid era would certainly be nice, after all no eras in baseball are the same and those footnotes are all over the book (lower mounds, longer seasons, longer playoffs, etc.).
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I’m just happy that the single-season record for homers still belongs to a Yankee, after all BigMac, Sammy and Bonds all were National Leaguers, no one in the Jr. Circuit has hit more homeruns than Maris! Go Roger!

[Jedieb]

Girardi had a very good band-aid analogy about the list of 103, rip it off quick and get it done with. It'll hurt less. The problem is, this test was suppose to be confidential and the samples were suppose to be destroyed after the test. There are so many things that are screwed up about that 03 test that it's hard to know where to begin.

First, these guys KNEW they were going to be tested. They were told MONTHS ahead of time that a test was coming and if a percentage of players came up positive that mandatory testing would be the result. A-Rod, Manny, Big Papi, and 100 other players all said; "So what?" That's takes some balls. (Bonds came up negative at first but the Feds retested him later and found a masking agent in his sample.)


No, what really upsets me is that this list with 103 names (100 undisclosed names, now) is supposed to be a court-sealed document and yet names keep pouring out. Now the last time I checked it was unlawful to leak information from court-sealed docs, yet nobody is doing a damn thing about it. Now, don’t get me wrong I’m all for freedom of speech and people can make their case that such documents are a contradiction of the First Amendment, etc, but my main gripe here and the bottom line is that their disclosure is unlawful and you can’t right a wrong by wronging two rights.

I totally agree, but I don't fault the reporters going after the story that much. They're doing their job, but the lawyers or whoever has leaked these names have definitely broken the law. But realistically, eventually ALL the names are going to be found out. Too many people have seen the list for the rest of the list to get buried forever. I wish more guys would do what Arroyo has done and come forward. Although even he is kind of full of it. EVERY player who tested positive KNEW their name was on that list. Even Big Papi which makes his "blindsided" comments from Thursday look even worse.

This is from S.I.

David Ortiz said Thursday that he was "blindsided" by the news that he and Manny Ramirez, whose booming bats led the Red Sox to their historic 2004 World Series title, had tested positive for performance-enhancing drugs in 2003. But both players, along with more than 100 others who tested positive, were notified years ago by the players union that they were on a list of players seized by federal authorities along with the test results, according to a landmark report on doping in the sport and testimony by the union chief. The notifications came after federal investigators seized more than 100 names of ballplayers in an April 2004 raid of the two firms that handled the testing of more than 1,400 samples. After the raid, the commissioner's office and the Major League Baseball Players Association agreed the union would inform those on the list that the government believed they had tested positive.

So they all know, but they all play their word games. I know that some people think there's no big deal about using PED's, but if that's true then why aren't these guys lining up to admit what they did? Whether you like him or not, has anyone been more upfront about exactly what they did than A-Rod? Yes, his admission was littered with dubious claims and he tried to play himself as young and naive. I'd guess he coped to about half of what he did, maybe a bit more. The sad part is that's more than any other of these guys has. (I'm not counting Canseco because he's a head case and will do or say anything for a dollar, even occasionally tell the truth.)

Who knows what the actual number of 'clean' players of this era has been, but they've got to be pretty pissed. If guys like Maddox and Rivera really did things the right way then their accomplishments are even more extraordinary.

The Red Sox are coming to New York next weekend. You can bet that the Bronx will be greeting Big Papi with some serious "steroids" jeers. It'll be payback for all the grief that A-Rod has gotten this year. I can't really blame them, but can any stadium make that cheer anymore? They can't, and that's what Big Papi's positive test has finally done I think. It's finally stripped away the idea that there's been a totally clean team to win the WS during this era. EVERY team had some guys on their roster who used. It is what it is.

The HOF voting is going to be pretty interesting these next few years. What's happened to Big Mac is what's really stunning to me. Remember, he never really got busted for anything. He embarrased himself in front of Congress, and that's been more than enough to get a guy with monster numbers out of the HOF. And he's not even CLOSE to gettting in. The first year he was eligible he was only getting around 25% of the vote and his numbers have actually gone DOWN in the following years. The HOF voters are harder on these guys than the general public.

Good News
I was really happy to see Jim Rice get inducted into the HOF. I thought that he and Gossage should have been inducted YEARS ago. My earliest memories of watching baseball games involve my grandfather and I watching the Yankees and Dodgers in the WS. In the late 70's I was introduced the one of the best rivalries in sports; Yanks v. Sox. And whenever Jim Rice came to the plate my reaction was always the same; "Oh shit...." The guy was a stud and put up great numbers for YEARS. But because he didn't kiss the media's ass enough he didn't get in until his last year of eligibility. That's bullshit. Congrats Rice, ya bastaaad!

[Jedi Master Carr]

Good News
I was really happy to see Jim Rice get inducted into the HOF. I thought that he and Gossage should have been inducted YEARS ago. My earliest memories of watching baseball games involve my grandfather and I watching the Yankees and Dodgers in the WS. In the late 70's I was introduced the one of the best rivalries in sports; Yanks v. Sox. And whenever Jim Rice came to the plate my reaction was always the same; "Oh shit...." The guy was a stud and put up great numbers for YEARS. But because he didn't kiss the media's ass enough he didn't get in until his last year of eligibility. That's bullshit. Congrats Rice, ya bastaaad! I think Dawson is going to get in next because he is in a similar situation as Rice hit those HR before steroids became an issue.
The situation is a mess I have given up caring about it to tell you the truth because so many people took it that who knows any more. It is comparable to the NFL of the 70s when most reports I read have argued most of the Steelers were on steroids. It is funny the NFL doesn't get as scrutinized when it is probably still going on today.
I take one issue with this you said Lykaios

You know what really upsets me? It's not even the fact that these guys cheated, cheating has always been part of the game (Shoeless Joe Jackson and the Black Sox Scandal, anyone? No? How about spitballs from pitchers trying to gain an edge on hitters? Or how about the famous greenies in the 60’s? ) and it will always be (tighter as drug policy in MLB may be today, there are still guys cheating today and not necessarily by taking banned substances but today there are still runners in second stealing signs and trying to tip of the batter).

You can't compare the steroid issues with the Black Sox scandal because that wasn't cheating that was throwing the WS. Those guys were trying to make money to rig a game. To me gambling (like the Black Sox and Pete Rose) in sports is a greater sin than steroids.

[Ryan Pode]

How come nobody has used the obvious "Roidsox" yet? That's what upsets me the most.

[Lykaios]

Well, to throw a game on purpose and not give your all is a way of cheating. They cheated the fans and they cheated the game itself.

I agree that throwing the WS seems bigger in the grand scheme of things but like many things there are several degrees of cheating I think.


I totally agree, but I don't fault the reporters going after the story that much.
I may not blame reporters but I do blame the media, the reason why they're not releasing all the names at the same time is so that they can sell more.

When ARod's announcement came up, there was a spike in magazine and newspapers sales, now that the RoidSox (there you go Ryan :D) report has surfaced, there's been again a spike in sales, next time they announce a big game, there'll be another spike. This people aren't after the truth, they're after sales and hits on their websites.
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[jjwr]

Its safe to say that no team/player is safe from the mid 90's to the mid 00's, every team had players who were juicing and they all benefited from it.

At this point the public just wants all the names out so its over and done with but it won't change anything. Players were given advance warning of that list so some most likely stopped and showed up negative when the testing was done so even with the list out you will find a lot of players skating under the radar when they were juicing like everyone else.