California = Fail

[Dasquian Belargic]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8068019.stm


California's Supreme Court has upheld a ban on same-sex marriage - the latest twist in a long-running saga.

The judges rejected a challenge from gay-rights activists to overturn the result of a 2008 referendum which restricted marriage to heterosexuals.

Prior to the vote, same-sex marriages were legal for six months, during which 18,000 couples were married.

The judges said their ruling was not retroactive - meaning those couples will remain legally married.

:whaa

Sort it out, Schwarzenegger.

[Trudy Bennett]

...Remember what I said earlier about California sucking at times? Yeah. Not our finest moment. :\

[Dasquian Belargic]

Don't worry.. I know you are not made of fail, Trudy :hug

Something crazy from that article, btw: "The campaign over November's vote cost more than $80m (£51m) - the most expensive ballot measure on a social issue in US history."

Way to use funds wisely! :D:thumbup

[Trudy Bennett]

I'm still just insanely baffled as to how it went through in the first place

I blame the "OMFG THEY WILL TEACH SAME-SEX MARRIAGE IN SCHOOLS TO YOUR CHILDREN!!!" ads.

[Dasquian Belargic]

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[Trudy Bennett]

Yeah, it was pretty much like that. :P

[CMJ]

Remember the Supreme Court of California are the ones that made it legal in the first place.

All the court decided in this case was that the amendment in question was not a fundamental revision of the constitution, and therefore the process of the amendment stands.

That process is completely screwed up - Californians have way too much control with all these damn ballot measures we vote on, but that's not the question presented to this court, nor is it their role to decide it.

[Dasquian Belargic]

It just seems mad that those 18,000 marriages will still be considered legit, but no other marriages can be made. How can they justify that? :huh

[CMJ]

Because the way Prop 8 was worded said nothing about marriages already performed, so it made no sense to the Justices for it to be taken ex post facto. They in fact took the Amendment VERY much word for word.

Oftentimes Judges interpret laws on an expansive basis, but the fact judged this amendment so narrowly implies it's not what they felt was right, but what they felt they had to do.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Remember the Supreme Court of California are the ones that made it legal in the first place.

All the court decided in this case was that the amendment in question was not a fundamental revision of the constitution, and therefore the process of the amendment stands.

That process is completely screwed up - Californians have way too much control with all these damn ballot measures we vote on, but that's not the question presented to this court, nor is it their role to decide it.

Yeah California is a mess right now. The citizens have way too much power and shouldn't be allowed to decide all of these ballot measures. Of course this goes beyond gay marriage and shows why the state is on the verge of Bankruptcy and massive layoffs. This case shows why our Founding fathers didn't want true democracy for the U.S.

[Darth Turbogeek]

Yeah California is a mess right now. The citizens have way too much power and shouldn't be allowed to decide all of these ballot measures. Of course this goes beyond gay marriage and shows why the state is on the verge of Bankruptcy and massive layoffs. This case shows why our Founding fathers didn't want true democracy for the U.S.


IF you read the consistution and understand it,.... actually what is on in Califorina is exactly what was intended. It was never a document to fit with modern times and modern problems - it was writeen 200 years ago for what the writers saw and wanted. And one of those things they wanted was a system where the Government couldnt have too much power and the States have quite a deal of sovergin rights.

The entire republic system of the USA is completely screwed up, chaotic and bewidering and needs a huge toilet flush - but that's exactly the way it is supposed to be.

That's not to say that's a bad thing mind - The founders were not Christian or Democratic or Monarchists - they were anarcists. It was ALWAYS supposed to be chaotic and it has worked pretty well in reality.

As for gay marrage - marrage is a political and religious insitution historically. Of course it's not going to be accepted - frankly the whole LGBT community pushed this issue too soon and too hard. There is a majority of the community who will never accept it - and not just religious either. The alternative of civil union, where ALL the rights of a political or religious marrage are granted is I would have thought to have been an acceptible (for now) compromise.

And frankly - who the ever living fuck wants to be married? Are you fucking well insane???? Why the blazes do you want to invest this kind of stupid on yourselves? Marriage is an insane institution - fucking just go away, hook up and dont worry about vows and crap. You should not require a dumb vow to actualyl have a loving and committed relationship, hell, that's why in straight relationships, defacto is growing at a big rate. And franky that's a good thing. The whole bullshit about marriage is pathetic - and a crazy invention for religious and politcial purposes. Oh gee, you mean I have to be married to my partner to be allowed in church because we share the same bed??? FUCK OFF!!! It's not like right now under US or Aussie law, Jess has the same rights as the ex-wife had. So why do we need a bit of paper? Is that really goign to make a committment difference - or is committment more than that?

The only reason I can see for a marriage with no legal difference to a defacto is respectability. Fuck that, I dont give a toss what peple think of my domestic arrangements.

So frankly, LGBT - make sure the legal equality in civil unions is there, then leave marriage for the fuckign crazies.

[CMJ]

Well actually Mark, the California State Constitution is way more screwed up than most. The way we govern by ballot measures is really insane. It is one of the reasons the state can't ever figure out anything - so much of the budget is automatically decided by the CONSITUTION. The USA for example has what...28 Amendments. So it almost never gets altered - it's actually a pretty amazing document in that way. The CA Constitution has over 400 Amendments. But that's the way it was set up here 150 years ago or whatever - so easy to change and let the people decide that way.

[Rutabaga]

Well actually Mark, the California State Constitution is way more screwed up than most. The way we govern by ballot measures is really insane. It is one of the reasons the state can't ever figure out anything - so much of the budget is automatically decided by the CONSITUTION. The USA for example has what...28 Amendments. So it almost never gets altered - it's actually a pretty amazing document in that way. The CA Constitution has over 400 Amendments. But that's the way it was set up here 150 years ago or whatever - so easy to change and let the people decide that way.

I agree completely. It's like I heard someone describe it this morning: "tyranny by majority." Even Bill Maher on his show last Friday refused to take potshots at The Governator because he said the state is ungovernable because it's legislation by ballot amendment. All you need is special interest groups and enough money, and voila! The constitution is amended.

The other thing that was screwed up about Proposition h8te is that I think it was horribly worded and presented...I have no doubts that people voted yes on the proposition because they believed a yes vote meant they were in favor of gay marriage.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Whoever said that 'the citizens have way too much power' is not thinking straight. I mean, isn't that the point of voting and all that? Why not go live in a dictatorship if you don't want the everyday citizens of the country all having a voice?

You may not agree with the vote, but that doesn't mean that we all shouldn't have a voice, right? Or is it only the people who agree with the way we think who matter?

[Morgan Evanar]

Whoever said that 'the citizens have way too much power' is not thinking straight. I mean, isn't that the point of voting and all that? Why not go live in a dictatorship if you don't want the everyday citizens of the country all having a voice?

You may not agree with the vote, but that doesn't mean that we all shouldn't have a voice, right? Or is it only the people who agree with the way we think who matter?When limited people can fundamentally destroy the foundation of government without a real revolution of some sort yeah the system in California is pretty broken. There is a reason why most states don't operate like California. It doesn't work.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

That may be true, but the whole point of our government is that the power is with the people. That was my only point.

[Charley]

Somehow California manages to do a superb job at pissing off everybody, no matter what their political spectrum may be. It's a great place to visit and enjoy, but I don't think I'd want to live there. In that respect, it's about on par with Turkey and a few 2nd world countries I guess.

[CMJ]

That may be true, but the whole point of our government is that the power is with the people. That was my only point.

Yes and no. The government is a Republic, not a Democracy - so while the power rests with the collective, our representatives do the heavy lifting. California tries to be more of a Democracy than a Republic. THAT'S why the people have too much power. We have initiatives to raise taxes, to change the way lottery money is distributed, to put restrictions on what ranchers can do with their livestock.

That's why we ELECT PEOPLE....but regular voters decide all that garbage. So YES the "people" wield far too much power here.

I mean do you wanna vote on irrigation re-routing, or do you want your elected representative to?

[Dasquian Belargic]

That may be true, but the whole point of our government is that the power is with the people. That was my only point.

The vote was 52.3% to 47.7% - it's hardly an overwhelming majority, so suggesting like this was the will of 'the people' and that only a tiny, radical minority objected is hardly fair.


And frankly - who the ever living fuck wants to be married?

Lots of people, clearly? I know you are jaded against marriage but at least you have the option to get married if you want to.

[Captain Untouchable]

The thing that bugs me about these issues; why is it anyone else's business?

The only reason for opposing homosexual marriages is as a direct result of social homophobia. It doesn't harm anyone. Doesn't affect anyone. It doesn't matter whether or not you think people should want to do it; no one has a good reason for not wanting it to happen, beyond the "Gay love is a sin" mentality.

Seriously; have we not learned as a species that trying to force our beliefs onto others is generally a bad thing?

[Khendon Sevon]

Okay, I skimmed through the thread...

That being said, I'm going to go ahead and say it:

The United States is a limited-dictatorship.

You may move on.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

The vote was 52.3% to 47.7% - it's hardly an overwhelming majority, so suggesting like this was the will of 'the people' and that only a tiny, radical minority objected is hardly fair.


I don't believe I was suggesting that.

[Dasquian Belargic]

Your words: "Why not go live in a dictatorship if you don't want the everyday citizens of the country all having a voice?"

Why should just over half of the citizens of California have the right to decide how all of the citizens of California must live? The people who voted against Prop 8 are everyday citizens too - and as you can see from the responses in this thread, you don't have to be homosexual to see the fundamental flaws in Prop 8.

What if just over 51% your state decided that you could not have any more children, or that you couldn't practice your chosen religion? Would you happily accept that because "Oh well, the small majority must be right!"


Seriously; have we not learned as a species that trying to force our beliefs onto others is generally a bad thing?

Sadly it seems not :(

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Inversely why would just under half of the citizens of a state be able to decide how everyone should live? It isn't a perfect system, there isn't a government that is, that I'm aware of, but its the one we/they have.

My comments had/have nothing to do with Prop 8 or California, I was only saying that we vote to have a voice and the power is supposed to be with the people. It is also aggravating when you vote representatives into power and they don't do what the people they are representing want. I think the people should have a little more say in what's going on, not less.

I'm not making any sort of homophobic or anti-homosexual statement (and I'm sorry if you think I am), I was only responding to one specific comment about our government. And now I'm done. :)

[CMJ]

If more states, or God forbid the USA as a whole, were run like California is, we'd be screwed. We vote on people to look at these sorts of issues. The average citizen doesn't really look at all the stuff we get to vote on and then we're bombarded with junk on TV and mailings.

This point isn't about gay marriage either. I don't really care honestly one way or the other. But since moving to this state in 2001, I've become more and more aghast at the CA system.

[Charley]

One word, Uhaul

[CMJ]

One word, Uhaul:lol

Haven't given up on the dream quite yet, so I'm sticking around.

[Charley]

Hurry up before tectonics happen and you fall into Arizona Bay.

[Emelie Shadowstar]

:lol You know...every time I get the gumption to think about ways to get out of this state we have a day like today where it's in the mid 80s, sunny, and a slight breeze ...and I suddenly find myself complacent again.

[Charley]

Iowa may not have your weather or your high-falootin' movie stars but they have a low cost of living, lax gun laws, their queers can marry, and they also have James T. Kirk.

If you dislike corn or pork you may be in trouble though.

[CMJ]

Weather's hard to beat here. About 300 days a years it's 70-80 degrees. We basically have a year round spring.

[Morgan Evanar]

Weather's hard to beat here. About 300 days a years it's 70-80 degrees. We basically have a year round spring.Soon enough it will be Arizona Bay and it won't matter. :wings

[Lady Vader]

Meh. I'm happy here. I won't be going anywhere. :)

(That's not to say there aren't some things I'd like to see quartered and burned, but those items don't outweigh the items making me stay... so, I have no reason to leave.)

[Shadow Storm]

Seriously; have we not learned as a species that trying to force our beliefs onto others is generally a bad thing?
Nope.
Personally, it's times like this I like to fall back on the examples set on the other animals of this planet.
Of course, that doesn't speak too much in favor of gay marriage.

Weather's hard to beat here. About 300 days a years it's 70-80 degrees. We basically have a year round spring.
Hey! Here too! How about that?
And unlike the earthquakes, you'll generally have a one week in advance warning of an approaching hurricane.

You know...every time I get the gumption to think about ways to get out of this state we have a day like today where it's in the mid 80s, sunny, and a slight breeze ...and I suddenly find myself complacent again.
Sounds like the weather we had today.

If more states, or God forbid the USA as a whole, were run like California is, we'd be screwed.
Heh heh. God save the Florida system, where if you feel as if your life is in danger from the stupidness of one or more politicans, you can just blow them away, scot free of prosecution. (exaggeration of course).
And sorry for the whole post in italics, but since I copied the first set of quotations, I can't seem to turn them off.

[Emelie Shadowstar]

Bah... *doesn't mind the earthquakes* :p Yes, I'm fully aware how scary/dangerous the larger ones can be...but it's not like we get them every year. And I've gotta say, after spending some time with family in Florida in August... I'll take my dry heat over that misery any day. lol

Okay silliness about the weather and all aside...yeah, some of the things they let us vote on here in California is a rather large "...what the hell do I know about that?" in my book. Sadly felt that way during this last little special election ballot thing we just had. People around here can barely manage their own personal budgets and we're all supposed to give our 2-cents on how an entire state should do it? Granted it wasn't a ton of areas to be affected, but still. While I appreciate the fact we do get to have a bit of a say on it...it just seems like insanity to expect actual "good" to come of it. But that probably stems from my overall cynical view of the majority of people here... :\

[CMJ]

[ Hey! Here too! How about that?

And unlike the earthquakes, you'll generally have a one week in advance warning of an approaching hurricane.

Oddly enough I work with 2 ladies from Florida, both of whom much prefer the climate out here. They make FL out to be WAY hotter than it is here.

I know Texas sure was. And colder. I could deal with the heat back home, but don't miss those winters. :)

As far as hurricanes vs earthquakes go....hard to say(being from TX originally, I know a bit about those too - tho I'm more from the tornado alley part of the state). The really bad ones in both are somewhat rare, but when they both whole regions can be affected.

[Morgan Evanar]

Florida does not have good weather year round. Sometimes we get 6 months, but often a lot less.

[stevenvdb]

Well, 82 percent of Americans or thereabouts supported the Iraqi invasion mainly out of fear and prejudice, so that should tell you something. Many of them won't ever admit it. It's so much of an issue that Obama, instead of doing the right thing and bringing our folks home is keeping them in harms way, rather than committing political suicide by broaching the subject.


Don't want to upset the "Good Americans"


And oh yeah, those of us who asked the right questions and recognized the propoganda are still considered the 'freaks'.

I don't really blame them, but if we are going to get out of this quagmire we are going to have to come to terms with this.