Graphics vs Gameplay

[Peter McCoy]

After reading a few comments in the Gamespot forums about the Red Faction: Guerrilla demo, I started to ponder. A lot of the posters were saying how bad the demo looked in terms of graphics, and some of them were over-exaggerating by saying it looked worse than some PS2 games. And then there were the one's defending it, saying that while the graphics were average for current possibilities, the gameplay was really great.

I gave my opinion on the demo in the thread I started about it: it's a lot of fun but short so roll on the full version! And the graphics are, IMHO, great but not brilliant. But what was most fun was of course the gameplay.

And so I pose it to you, the good gaming fans of these fine forums: what do you look for in a game? Is it the gorgeous eye-popping visuals a-la Crysis and Killzone 2, or perhaps the engrossing gameplay of something like the original Civilisation?

[Dasquian Belargic]

Gameplay, definitely. I love a game with a good story :)

I can't run the majority of eye-poppingly gorgeous games on my laptop anyway :lol I would much rather have a game that has.. stylish graphics, than hyper-realistic graphics. Something that has a really distinctive visual style - BioShock for instance. That has great graphics, but what makes the graphics appealing to me is that they are unique, whereas it seems that with Halo and its ilk everything looks beautifully rendered but very samey.

..I hope that makes sense :uhoh

[Mandy with an I]

I think it really depends on the game. I mean, I can play old-skool games with my siblings and have a great time. The graphics are shit, but I think it's the fun of playing it with them that's important. Even the games that we all play together now, I don't think anyone cares if the graphics are amazing in like, Rock Band or Guitar Hero.

I do like Oblivion because it's shiny though. ^_^;

[Crusader]

^^ I agree with you that art direction is the keyword here. In the end the presentation is more important than the horse power and the polycount. Some games have timeless artwork and they will always be remembered for that: Alice, Monkey Island, Loom, Crusader, Final Fantasy 7 and MGS1.
Oh and btw Halo has got some of the best art direction of this generation, their designs and handpainted skymaps are awesome.
But in the end it all comes down to gameplay and especially to game mechanics. I always love games where you have those: "You didn't just do that moments!!?"
I mean stuff like in Dead Rising where you can paint zombies with gigantic lipsticks, or Riddick where you can give enemies a brain piercing with a screw driver...oh and I have to point out one of my love and hate games here...Postal 2: I tried to beat postal without killing any inocents so I really tried hard to stick to the list :) and I did all the waiting in line and stuff like that...this is what makes this game so brilliant you can really play it like the good guy in the wrong place and this freedom does not really feel forced.
So I vote for gameplay because graphics will become outdated one day or another but the memories of having done cool stuff will remain.

[Peter McCoy]

I of course voted for gameplay.

I've previously mentioned the two Star Wars games - Empire at War and Rebellion/Supremacy - as a prime example of this. I think Empire at War is a great-looking game. The site of all those different ships on-screen duking it out, trading red and green laser fire, explosions rocking both fleets, fighters swarming around each other, your reinforcements emerging from hyperspace just as you lose a ship - it's all very pleasing to watch as the battle unfolds.

But with Supremacy, which some say had bad graphics even for its time, what you lose in looks you gain in gameplay and longevity. The fleet battle graphics are shoddy and pixellated, the sound effects are scarce. But was is great is just how many ships you can have in your fleet. Depending on the current galactic situation, there is a limit to the amount of mantenance points you can have, and thus the number of ships you can have. But with the RebEd program, you can edit the stats of everything in the game. I used to give every ship a maintenance cost of 1 so that I could build more units per duo of a refinery and a mine (which gives 50 maintenance points). But I've never tested just how many units I can have in a single battle. I'd think there isn't a limit apart from what your processor could handle (which I'd think would be quite high given the age of the game now). The largest battle I can recall was my fleet of around 20 Super Star Destroyers and around 90 or si ISD II's against some 150 assorted rebel capital ships. My fleet had TIE fighters to maximum capacity too, so there was quite a lot in the battle. The sheer scale of it was enough to make me giddy. It easily rivalled the action at Endor (but not as visually stunning of course).

And then there's the galactic portion of the game, where you manage your empire (or rebellion). In Empire at War, I beluieve the options are very limited. You can build ships and troops for ground and space combat. Then there's the construction of production facilities - barracks, vehicle factories, base shields, ground-defense turrets, space defense turrets and a Death Star Shield as well. And you have some characters who can participate in combat as well as an agent who can do missions in the galactic view: Boba Fett can assassinate other characters for the Empire, and Han and Chewie can steal credits for the Rebels.

But in Supremacy, there's a lot more that requires your attention. The most demanding of your management duties is resource production. Each planet (of which there are 200 across 20 sectors on the highest setting) can have a certain number of mines. Those mines produce raw materials for your refineries, which turn them into processes materials. These are then used to construct everything in the game, including more mines and refineries. Each planet can have a certain number of structures on it (or orbiting it, in the case of shipyards). And as mentioned before, for every due of mine and refinery (which don't have to be on the same planet) you get 50 maintenance points. Think of this as your 'food' in the likes of Warcraft 3. It's essentially the population limit. But even structures (excluding the mines and refineries) have a maintenance cost. So you really do need to take stock of your situation regularly, so you know what you can do and what you need to plan for.

Then there's your characters. There's a large number available for recruitment. And each one has various attributes. Darth Vader has very high combat skills, making him a great assassin once you've located a rebel character, while Ackbar has strong leadership qualities making him great for use as a fleet Admiral, which boosts the effectiveness of the fleet he's attatched to. Other characters have high espionage skills, making them great for spying and sabotage.

Sabotage is a favourite tactic of mine, and I always make use of it before any large offensive. What you can do is (as the Rebels in this example) send Han, Chewie, Luke, Lando etc to an enemy-controlled planet on an espionage mission. And you can even assign some of them as decoys so that the chance of success for the primary agent is higher. Once you click to start the mission, the characters disappear and report back once it's done. You don't play the mission in a real-time strategy way. It's automatically done within a few in-game days. Assuming they don't fail due to security forces on the planet, you'll be able to view the planetary structures and defenses (both troops as well as turrets and shields). The next step is to lighten or completely eliminate those defenses through sabotage. You can target structures and troop units. Again, decoys are effective. And once the defenses are gone, the fleet can move in with little to no opposition. You can also bombard the planet but you run the risk of popular support shifting against you.

The choices are quite varied, as accross the 200 planets there are many possible military targets to choose from in the mid-to-late parts of a game. I once discovered 5 planets in the same system with about 9/10 shipyards on each, and they were churning out ISD's like there was no tomorrow. And as my scouts reported how well-defended it was, I had a problem. Luckily, I managed to find a very lightly-defended sector full of mines and refineries. It looks like the player was in the process of fortifying them, but was concentrating on those shipyard's production lines for now. So I just sent as many characters as I could on sabotage missions. After about 20 in-game days all the mines and refineries in the sector were rubble, and the 5 shipyards were incapable of producing that very threatening fleet I spied earlier.

Well after that hasty review, I hope you'll agree that in this particular case gameplay beats graphics hands down.

[Peter McCoy]

I do like Oblivion because it's shiny though. ^_^;

But the great thing about Oblivion (and Fallout 3 for that matter) is just how huge the world is, and the amount of stuff you can do. And you can do it however the hell you like. I'd still play 'em if they didn't look as good too. I still enjoy the original Grand Theft Auto. I love the ambient city sounds in that game. The way you can hear distant traffic when you're down an alley or by the docks. Classic.

[Droo]

Gameplay gameplay gameplay. While I appreciate games that look gorgeous, the impact of sexy graphics is fleeting compared to a memorable story and immersive gamplay. Just like how I feel special effects should not sell films, neither should graphics, and quite frankly, what is the point in owning a pretty game that you don't want to play?

[Peter McCoy]

...and quite frankly, what is the point in owning a pretty game that you don't want to play?

Quoted for great truth. I'd like to mention Crysis in reference to this statement. I've had it for about 2 months now and after getting over the OHMYGODTHEWATER/TREES/WHATEVER I haven't returned to it.

But I did re-install Diablo 2 yesterday around 4pm and as I type this from my computer in work it's 8:57am and I've had 3 hours sleep thanks to it :)

Gameplay gameplay, gameplay indeed, Droo! :)

[Khendon Sevon]

So, I've had the privilege of working with some amazing graphics programmers as well as taken several graphics programming courses.

For me, gameplay is crucial. I can't stand a game that looks great and doesn't play well.

That being said, the primary argument for graphics, physics, and other technologies that make the world around you act more realistic is pretty straightforward: immersion.

The moment you see shadow acne, LOD or culling pop, or out of sync voice acting you're pulled from the world the game designers intended. Any flaw or glitch will kick you right out.

Additionally, the more you can interact with the world, the closer it is to true (true not necessarily meaning real-life, as with Blizzard's games where they're very stylized), the more immersion that occurs.

That being said, great graphics won't help a horrible game be wonderful; but, they will make a mediocre game (I hate WoW's gameplay) enjoyable (I love running around and being in the environment of WoW. When I was in early beta I would just run around looking at all of the lovely artistry).

The best games are where design, style, and technology are married in such a way as to create a masterpiece.

Prime examples would be Gears of War, Dawn of War, Half-Life, Oblivion, etc.

[Morgan Evanar]

Thief 1 and 2 are still the best stealth games ever made and aside from being uglier than your mom are two of the best games ever coded.

[Dasquian Belargic]

I used to play MUDs (text-based games) so I guess I have fairly low standards graphics-wise. Thief is awesomesauce though. I think the sound/lighting combo really shines (lol) in that series, above any other.

[Tear]

Thief 1 and 2 are still the best stealth games ever made and aside from being uglier than your mom are two of the best games ever coded.

news (http://kotaku.com/5248907/thief-4-its-official)for you thief fans

[Dasquian Belargic]

I heard about that, but I'm with-holding any excitement for now.. until more details, especially about the plot/setting, are revealed.

[Shadow Storm]

I'm more of an RTS fan, but what I do play in the way of FPS or MMORPGs, has more to do with gameplay than graphics. I'm highly addicted to WoW and CS:S, both of which have mediocre to shoddy graphics, even though my computer can support far better.

RTS games usually have shoddy gameplay if graphics are good, and vice-versa. Some notable exceptions, which makes these games my favorite of the RTS-genre, are Starcraft: Brood War, which has decent graphics and good gameplay for it's era, American Conquest, which has decent graphics and great gameplay, and AoE III, which has good graphics and great gameplay.

[Crusader]

The best games are where design, style, and technology are married in such a way as to create a masterpiece.

Prime examples would be Gears of War, Dawn of War, Half-Life, Oblivion, etc.
How is your marriage coming along? I need a good fix for the hole that BF1942 and DC has left in my life :D

[Peter McCoy]

I agree with what you say, Khendon, about immersion. I still adore playing Half-Life 2. The coastal highway sections are just so amazing. The scenes you encounter along Highway 57 are just pure golden. A rickety, abandoned and wrecked house on a cliff edge - that section in particular oozes atmosphere in a game that has so much in it already.

And I have to pick up on Morg's mention of the Thief games. I remember playing the demo for Thief - it was the first level, the Bafford Manor I think, where you have to steal the scepter. I played that demo to death, exploring the dark, cold hallways well into the wee hours.

And since I'm talking about the Dark engine I have to mention System Shock 2. Seriously, anybody who says they go for gameplay over graphics has to play this game. It's still my all-time favourite. Three different 'classes' mean you have three distinct styles of play and therefore the desire to play it three times, with a different approach each time. And on a ship stranded 67 trillion miles from Earth with 6 very distinct decks to explore, as well as a sister ship piggy-backing it's way through the cosmos! You really do get a feel for the layout of the ship quite quickly.

Fun fact: I watched Superhero Movie tonight. Aside from being quite funny, I heard a scream at one point, and it was the same scream right from the beginning of System Shock 2 where you see a member of the crew run past on the other side of a window. I was thrilled to bits and my girlfriend had no idea why. Bless :)

The use of sound in SS2 is fantastic. The techno-babble of the cybog assassins, the groans and pleas of euthanasia from the hybrids, the high-pitched chirps and screams of chimps somewhere down the hallway. And those damned midwives! God, I hope I have a nightmare based on this tonight now that it's on my mind. I love bieng scared by this game, it's magic! I remember one time when a chimp caught me by surprise. I actually ran half-way across the deck to the bulkhead and stayed there for a good five minutes before budging again. Awesome.

And the style of the game is great. I love the cyberpunk approach with it's greens and purples and reds and blues. The glow and hum of a relatively out of the way room is quite comforting on board the Von Braun.

Oh god, I just had an idea - a game along the lines of Left 4 Dead, but set in SS2 on the Von Braun! Kill me now, I'm off to Heaven! If only. I can dream I suppose (more like have nightmares ftw).

Oh and for superb RTS gameplay, as well as Starcraft (including Brood Wars for the extra units) and the Warcraft series, I have to mention Total Annihilation. I always play that game with the 'Battle 2' music track on repeat. Land, sea and air units on absolutely huge maps - as well as the immense long-range cannons that can shoot half-way across some of them.

[Khendon Sevon]

The best games are where design, style, and technology are married in such a way as to create a masterpiece.

Prime examples would be Gears of War, Dawn of War, Half-Life, Oblivion, etc.
How is your marriage coming along? I need a good fix for the hole that BF1942 and DC has left in my life :D

Haha, Kaos Studios next projects will hopefully fill your life with joy and awesomeness ;) I say that, of course, having no clue what they are since I haven't started work yet; but, I know the guys working on it, and they're insanely talented and driven.

[Crusader]

I still haven't checked out Frontlines but at least in DC I had the feeling that they had really nailed vehicular combat in FPS games. Unfortunatly BF2 didn't do that.
So I hope that KAOS next game might one day show EA and Dice how it is done. I have great confidence in you guys.