2008 Presidential Race Part Two

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

Continuing the discussion since the last thread accidentally went over the post limit.

Carry on :)

[Jedieb]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I LIKE John McCain, I always have. Any criticisms of his I've ever had have been mostly policy ones. I particularly haven't liked how far right he's had to go these last few years to get his party's nomination. We'd would have all been better off if he'd been the Republican candidate 8 years ago. He can sell Iraq all he wants now, but I don't believe that war happens without Bush and Cheney behind the desk.

VP Sweeps
I think there's a 75% chance McCain puts a woman on the ticket. I'm telling you, he's going to go after Hillary supporters hard. If he can find a woman with strong conservative credentials he can shore up two demographics at once. I don't think Rice has much of a chance because she's got a lot baggage, but she would hit 3 demos right off the bat. I'm wondering who's going to pull the trigger first, Obama or McCain?

[CMJ]

Kay Bailey Hutchison - she was an incredibly popular Senator in Texas(I'm sure she still is). I've heard she's planning on running for Governor, but I think she'd make a great running mate.

[Locksmith]

I'd love to see McCain pick Schwarzenegger, but it probably won't happen. Arnold has been a phenomenal governor here in California, and really pulled this state out of all kinds of hell the previous governor had gotten it into, as well as had amazing economic and environmental programs. Also, it's nice to see him really focus on his job instead of going after it for fame. He's already got all the money and fame he'd ever need, so he can't be bought.

That's my two cents.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I don't think he can because he wasn't born in the U.S.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Arnold isn't a natural born citizen, so he can't serve as president, so he can't serve as VP because should anything happen to McCain, he'd be up. They'd have to re-write the constitution for him.

[Sanis Prent]

That, and the GOP is probably going to need a milquetoast leaning-right veep because most of the party considers McCain to be almost too progressive. They are really going to be burning the candle at both ends to try and reach to moderates without having the base simply refuse to get out and vote.

[Jedieb]

I thought Arnie's approval ratings in Kalifornia were in the dumpster?

The big concession speech is tomorrow. Maybe the situation will change in a month, but right now her chances at VP really look like they're in the toilet.

[CMJ]

I thought Arnie's approval ratings in Kalifornia were in the dumpster?

He got off to a rough start, but since about the 2 year mark he's been very popular.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Hillary did a very good job conceding and telling her supporters to back Obama. She seemed very sincere and I think this will help bring unity to the Party.

[Cat X]

That, and the GOP is probably going to need a milquetoast leaning-right veep because most of the party considers McCain to be almost too progressive. They are really going to be burning the candle at both ends to try and reach to moderates without having the base simply refuse to get out and vote.

The election will not be won by trying to pander to a decreasing minority. It will be won by taking the ever expanding middle to left (which you did observe correctly), which is a mirror of what happened in Australia a year ago. If he picks a right winger to appeal to a group who frankly will never consider voting Democrat (and desipte what you would think, the right will most likely just grit their teeth and vote McCain anyway) then he's conceded the election and will lose big. He should pick a VP who will help win the center.

However, I suspect McCain will have a lot more problems than just trying to win the centre. For example, his economic advisor is Carly Fiorina and she's been mooted as possible VP.

If that name didnt just scare the hell out of you, talk to a HP employee and learn why she's the last person you want on a campaign.

With advisors like this, who needs enemies?

He's got his own pastor problems as well as a record of trouble with lobbists. The McSame meme is going to stick - He's too close to a President who is pretty much written off as the worst ever. Every time someone fills up a tank of fuel, they are going to think about fuel prices and blame the Republicans (in the main, the exact place blame should be placed). Unemployment is going up. The only reason why the USA isnt officially in recession is a quibbling over terminology. Consumer confidence is low and spending is way down. There's a hugely unpopular war that everyone who has a clue realises was opened under false pretense.

I feel sorry for him actually. The McCain of 2000 was a good guy and he really didnt deserve to be handed a dud hand like this. The McCain of 2008 is much different because he's had to pander to the right wing but I think he's still the good guy of 2000, just hamstrung by a party with a lot of problems and forced to pander to a support base who probably should be ignored, with a platform that's pretty much been a failure. He really needs to change things fast but I cant see how he can escape the issues he is presented with.

If he wins, it will be by the smallest of margins. I cant see how he's going to win comfortably. Which is a pity because if he had won in 2000, I'm not sure we would be seeing this insane mess he's got now. I think things would be a lot different.

Certainly wouldnt have paid $1.75 a litre for fuel tonight. On the other hand, USA holidays are looking incredibly cheap.

[Zem Vymes]

You might have the PNAC guys, paleocons, big business, etc vote for him irregardless but if he leans away from the base, I don't think they'll be able to really squeeze much cooperation out of the religious right, who have been somewhat of cuckold spouses to the party for a while. I think they're fairly likely to be no-shows if they get too alienated.

[Cat X]

Maybe this could become a bit of an election issue

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/6/12/102835/929/358/534586


In a 5-4 decision today written by Justice Kennedy (http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2008/06/06-1195.pdf), the Supreme Court has ruled that foreign nationals detained at Guantánamo Bay retain the constitutional privilege of habeas corpus, and that such rights were not validly stripped by Congress in passing the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005, as the procedures in provided did not constitute an adequate and effective substitute for habeas corpus and were therefore unconstitutional.

I do very much hope that frankly criminal jail and circumvention of any convention is slammed down on hard. I'll be interested to see what McCain and Obama have to say on this.

[Atreyu]

TIME.com has had some interesting articles regarding potential VP choices for both candidates. Probably the most interesting comment I read was that if Obama were to choose a female VP that doesn't have the surname Clinton, hardcore female Clinton supporters with leave en masse (I was thinking that a female VP might placate them, but now I'm not so sure).

How to Pick a Veep
http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1813762,00.html

Obama's Military Veep Options
http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1813929,00.html

(there was another article that actually looked through potential VP candidates with their pros and cons, but I can't seem to find it now. :\)

[Cat X]

As I keep saying, he doesnt need to worry about fake Democrats and angry cat ladies. Real democrats will fall in and are already doing so in a big hurry. It's a pity Time has fallen for that false premise.

What he'll do is do exactly what he usually does - do exactly what he feels is right, not what others want. The mere fact he has Caroline Kennedy involved with VP vetting says a lot.

Frankly McCain's the one who has bigger problems. And this says it all

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/6/14/213149/670/890/536096

Compare and contrast to McCain. Even as just a photo Op, it really highlights Obama's message and makes the Republicans look pretty bad. And I note Obama's campaign is also urging donations to the Red Cross and other relief agencies as well as co-ordinating help.

Some of the states that are affected have the cahnce to swing to Obama in Novemeber. It's things like this that will get remebered.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I still feel the economy will doom MCcain. 99% of the time when the economy is bad the incumbent party gets the blame.

[Cat X]

I still feel the economy will doom MCcain. 99% of the time when the economy is bad the incumbent party gets the blame.

Yes true but the problem the Repubs have got is that it's not the only reason not to vote for them. You could include five or six headlining issues (iraq, McCain, quality of downstream candidates, corruption, the Bush factor, the "We want change" factor, GOTV.... ) and come up with quite valid reasons.

It's pretty sure the Republicans are going to be murdered in downstream elections like Senate and Congress - the Democrats will increase majorities there. What i get the sense of is that the USA will be a lot like Australia was last year - the electors were waiting bats in hand to give the incumbents a belting. And absolutly nothing was going to change that (tax cuts, the economy goign well, generally good news for the Govt....), even as far out as 9 months we saw polling pointing to it. The electorate had made it's mind up a year in advance.

Is the USA already decided? Signs to me say yes.The other thing that is not good for McCain is.... why should anyone vote for him? That question seems to be coming up and it's appropriate. As the front of a party who's pretty much screwed up everythign in the last eight years, why should they get another chance?

[Yog]

Awesome Obama video ^_^

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q969q8fs1Vc

[Jedi Master Carr]

Obama has opened up a 15 point lead in the latest Newsweek poll. He also leads big states like Florida, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Michigan. Still, I would get too overconfident as Dukakis had a 20 point lead on Bush Sr back in 88.

[Atreyu]

An excellent article discussing the issues relating to vetting a Veep:

http://www.nationaljournal.com/njmagazine/cs_20080621_9379.php

[CMJ]

Brilliant.

http://aka.zero.jibjab.com/client/zero/ClientZero_EmbedViewer.swf?content_url=http://aka.zero.jibjab.com/files/production/tentpole_config.xml&service=sendables.jibjab.com

[Yog]

Brilliant.

http://aka.zero.jibjab.com/client/zero/ClientZero_EmbedViewer.swf?content_url=http://aka.zero.jibjab.com/files/production/tentpole_config.xml&service=sendables.jibjab.com

Masterpiece :D

[Yog]

Obama raised $52M in June:
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/07/17/obama/index.html

Most impressive!

[Figrin D'an]

Obama lost major points with me when he actually voted yes for the FISA Amendments Act. McCain abstained from the vote (meaning he likely wasn't there for it; he probably would have voted yes). I'm not sure if Obama is trying to use things like this to play more towards the center of the political spectrum and woo conservative voters, but this seems just a horrible move by him, since even a good section of conservatives hate this act.

I consider myself to be in the undecided category of voters, but was leaning towards Obama. This, however, is close to unforgivable IMO. I really would like to hear his reasoning for voting yes on granting the telecoms immunity. Special interests at work here? I hope not, but I'm not going to be naive enough to think it isn't possible.

[Sanis Prent]

Yeah, that was one hell of a sell-out :(

[Cat X]

He in fact did not vote for immunity. The actual votes beforehand showed what he really thought - he voted for EVERY amendment get rid of immunity, there were three bills to do that, each was defeated, he voted for each of them.

His position was pretty clear - he would vote for the bill but he wanted immunity gone and would vote for any bill that amended the legislation to do that.

Unfortunantly, the real reason why he voted yes in the end is so the retards in the media and the Republicans who love to cry TERRORRRRR OMG would be able to use this as a big stick to whack him with over National Security - his real weak point. Now he said there were parts of the bill that he thinks are actually good (Have a look on his website, not hard to find) and he did try to remove what he thought was bad.

But in the end, you have a problem if you are in his position. Vote No and hand every moron with a 527 an issue to beat him with, or deny the Republicans the wedge issue and keep the campaign on track but risk alienating a small group of voters who in the end will not vote Republican anyway and will realize Obama is a superior choice on a whole range of issues from the economy to abortion.

So in the end, he did vote for the bill as it stood. But he did voted three times to deny immunity. And frankly, there a hell of a lot more that people should be looking at with McCain than one issue Obama pretty much had a foul hand to use and probably had no choice but to do.

[Yog]

I do not like the FISA Act any more than you guys do. Yeah, it was disappointing he did not keep a hard stance on the issue. It is clear to me Obama did not want the bill, yet he voted yes on it. This is one peculiarity of politics I don't understand. Maybe it was some sort of tactical positioning for the general election in the fall. Or maybe it was more of a legislation maneuvering to get the most edible result that was possible at the time. Or maybe it was both. I don't know. What I do know hoewever, if you are concerned about government's invasion of privacy, you don't want to vote McCain over Obama..

I DON'T think it was a case of special interests / lobbying though.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I don't think it will hurt him because only liberals hate the bill. Everyone else is okay with it. It isn't like liberals are going to vote for MCCain now and there are too many important issues for them to decide to stay home. I think they will hold their noses and hope he changes it when he is president. I am okay with the bill if it doesn't have immunity attached. That is the part I don't like.

[Yog]

I don't think it will hurt him because only liberals hate the bill. Everyone else is okay with it.
You forget the libertarians, the green voters, and the independent voters. The danger is when you alienate these groups so much, they vote Nader or stay home instead of voting.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Well Bob Barr is the libertarian candidate and he is way too conservative for any liberal. The Green Party is a joke right now putting that moron as their candidate. She be lucky to get 50 thousand votes. There is Nader but he is still too hated by liberals because of 2000.

[Figrin D'an]

I don't think it will hurt him because only liberals hate the bill.


This is hardly the case. There are plenty of people across the spectrum who hate the idea of not only giving the telecoms immunity for their surveillance shenanigans, but also for the fact that this act essentially removes judicial oversite from the entire process, and any accountability that the telecoms, the CIA, the NSA or White House had in all of this disappears. Conservatives who are not part of the repugnant pile of feces called the Republican Party don't support this at all, because it's about protecting a bloated government with too much power.





He in fact did not vote for immunity. The actual votes beforehand showed what he really thought - he voted for EVERY amendment get rid of immunity, there were three bills to do that, each was defeated, he voted for each of them.

His position was pretty clear - he would vote for the bill but he wanted immunity gone and would vote for any bill that amended the legislation to do that.

Unfortunantly, the real reason why he voted yes in the end is so the retards in the media and the Republicans who love to cry TERRORRRRR OMG would be able to use this as a big stick to whack him with over National Security - his real weak point. Now he said there were parts of the bill that he thinks are actually good (Have a look on his website, not hard to find) and he did try to remove what he thought was bad.

But in the end, you have a problem if you are in his position. Vote No and hand every moron with a 527 an issue to beat him with, or deny the Republicans the wedge issue and keep the campaign on track but risk alienating a small group of voters who in the end will not vote Republican anyway and will realize Obama is a superior choice on a whole range of issues from the economy to abortion.

So in the end, he did vote for the bill as it stood. But he did voted three times to deny immunity.


Sorry, that explanation doesn't cut it. Not with me, not with many others who are upset that he wouldn't vote against this. Yes, he voted for amendments to the bill to remove the immunity clause. That doesn't change the simple fact that he voted "Yes" this time around, despite that the two biggest and hotly contested parts of the FISA Amendment Act were immunity and effective removal of judicial oversight. He signed a bill that will allow the Bush Administration off the hook on this entire surveillance mess. If he did indeed do this as a way to boost his national security cred, or keep the GOP from using this issue in upcoming campaign propaganda against him, it's a ridiculous tactical mistake on his part. He's going to alienate more people through this than he will gain from the the small pool who actually think this act was a good idea.





And frankly, there a hell of a lot more that people should be looking at with McCain than one issue Obama pretty much had a foul hand to use and probably had no choice but to do


Thanks for attempting to twist this away from focusing on Obama's decision on this specific matter and trying to give him a pass on this by saying his opponent is far worse on issues that weren't part of the discussion. I'm sure Obama can find a place for you in his campaign; you're good at trying to deflect every criticism of him.

[Jedi Master Carr]

You can't just blame Obama though when just about the entire democrat congress voted for it. I think like 11 senators voted against it. And less than 100 members of the house voted against it.

[Pierce Tondry]

You can't just blame Obama though when just about the entire democrat congress voted for it. I think like 11 senators voted against it. And less than 100 members of the house voted against it.

I don't think he's blaming Obama for anything. I think he's criticizing Obama for choosing to support the bill.


There are plenty of people across the spectrum who hate the idea of not only giving the telecoms immunity for their surveillance shenanigans, but also for the fact that this act essentially removes judicial oversite from the entire process, and any accountability that the telecoms, the CIA, the NSA or White House had in all of this disappears.

This is why I'm not thrilled. Accountability is important and judicial oversight is critical. :\

[Jaime Tomahawk]

Thanks for attempting to twist this away from focusing on Obama's decision on this specific matter and trying to give him a pass on this by saying his opponent is far worse on issues that weren't part of the discussion. I'm sure Obama can find a place for you in his campaign; you're good at trying to deflect every criticism of him.


Tough luck for you then. You might be worried what is in the face of it one small issue. Millions others have got the problem the entire country is going broke and going backwards at quite a rate of knots.

So who's going to fix that? McCain? He hardly knows what economics is.

[Vipul Chandrashekar]

Having the excuse that "the other guy is worse" is still terrible impetus for signing off on some really awful stuff. There are better ways for Obama to play to the center without coming off as compromising in a situation where he really shouldn't. The FISA bill is completely disgusting, and for somebody who is running on a ticket of hope and change, this really does kind of hurt the spirit of his campaign, even if he is still obviously the better candidate. Like it was said, some of his spirited supporters may end up just staying home if this sort of offense continues.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I doubt they will stay home, besides so far this has been the only issue that has bothered them. I doubt we see anything else like this from here to November.

[Firebird1]

Meanwhile Obama is in Iraq. He was just in Afghanistan, any thoughts on how this will help out his image on Foreign Issues to the US?

[Jedieb]

FISA
He should have voted against it. I don't agree with his support of the legislation, but it's not a deal breaker for me. It's also another example of the old adage; In primaries you run to the left/right, in the general election you run towards the center.

Obama's Foreign Tour
McCain and his surrogates goaded him into this trip, now they're privately regretting it. He's doing quite well and he's getting some incredible receptions. He's looking at a huge crowd tomorrow in Germany. Anyone think McCain would get that kind of reception? But what's really going to make this trip stand out is Maliki's Der Speigel interview and his apparent endorsement of Obama's troop withdrawal time line. It's a kick in the gut to McCain. In fact, even the White House is starting to realize it's time to start look at withdrawal. Although it hysterical to see the White House use the phrase "time horizon." McCain has spent so much time attacking Obama's Iraq policy and equating withdrawal with defeat that Republicans now have to come up with ridiculous language.

The Media Loves Obama
Republicans have been talking this up a lot lately. It's not all hype either. But the fact is, the media loves a good story and ratings and Obama gives them that. The crowd he's going to get in Germany tomorrow is an example of that. McCain just can't bring in the excitement or the numbers that Obama does. Obama is a "new" story, McCain for many is "old" news. It's also a bit ironic that a candidate that use to joke that the Press was his base is now crying foul about biased coverage. McCain use get a lot of slack and affection from the press. He's just not use to playing second fiddle to anyone when it comes to the press corps.

And the NY Times was stupid for not printing McCain's editorial. Don't judge it, just print it you idiots. Yes, it was more of an attack piece than an issue paper, but by not printing it they made it bigger than it would have been if they'd just ran it. It's already been carried and printed at several sites. Plus, it gives the right ammo against the evil, wicked, "liberal" media.

I really don't see Obama pulling away, but he's been pretty solid in polls for weeks now. He's got a solid 4-6 point lead and the electoral mock ups have him averaging over 300. I really think he's got a ceiling that's going to keep this from being a landslide, but I'm encouraged at how he's been polling.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I agree I think he is doing a good job. I really like the foreign tour he is doing.

[Yog]

Obama is expected to announce his running mate / VP nominee this saturday. My money is on Senator Joe Biden.

Biden gets secret service protection (ABC) (http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/08/22/ABC_Biden_gets_Secret_Service_protection/UPI-59491219463890/)

Edit: Breaking news! CNN confirms Obama/Biden '08.

Edit 2: CBS just declared this as well now. And the front page of the Drudge Report (http://www.drudgereport.com/) says IT'S BIDEN (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D92NPH8G1&show_article=1).


http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/6866/bidenqn1.jpg

[Figrin D'an]

Speculation was that Obama would choose someone with a strong foreign policy background; Biden fits that mold.

Biden is certainly a very intelligent man, but he doesn't always communicate very well... he has a history of verbosity, and has made some awful gaffes at times when he is allowed to ramble (the confirmation hearings for Justices John Roberts and Samuel Alito come to mind as recent examples). That said, when he gets to the point and is concise, he can be very effective. He made some excellent points in the early race for the Democratic nomination that are very applicable to the here and now (he pretty much called the Russia/Georgia situation 7 months before the fighting started).

Seems like a solid choice on the surface, and in terms of enhancing Obama's electability, was a far smarter choice that going with one of the less experienced options he was considering.

It will be interesting if the choice of Biden by Obama effects what McCain's choice will be.

[Daiquiri]

Obama just lost the race by not choosing Hilary. While I think she wouldve made an excellent VP for us, she wouldnt have given Obama a moments peace.

McCain is the lesser of two evils in this case though I vehemently disagree with some of his ideas. I so wish Jim Edgar (former Illinois govenor) or Colin Powell wouldve run in this election. Maybe in '12 I'll get lucky. (And Powell's wife will relent since Obama hasnt been whacked...yet)

Biden is a hothead and as Fig said above, too many gaffes. We've had enough of that with the buffoon who is leaving office.

[Sanis Prent]

Obama just lost the race by not choosing Hilary. While I think she wouldve made an excellent VP for us, she wouldnt have given Obama a moments peace.

McCain is the lesser of two evils in this case though I vehemently disagree with some of his ideas. I so wish Jim Edgar (former Illinois govenor) or Colin Powell wouldve run in this election. Maybe in '12 I'll get lucky. (And Powell's wife will relent since Obama hasnt been whacked...yet)

Biden is a hothead and as Fig said above, too many gaffes. We've had enough of that with the buffoon who is leaving office.

This is highly unlikely, Hillary is only relevant to the fringes and PUMAs and the hype around her is entirely a media fabrication.

That being said, I can barely swallow my acidic contempt for Joe Biden, so I really hate this veep choice. My personal grievances with the man aside, I don't think you want a president who is already a cult of personality to join a ticket with a big name who is really really prone to having stupid things fly out of his mouth. Dick Cheney might have shot somebody in the face with a shotgun, but you can mark my words that Joe Biden will recreate the verbal equivalent of it.

I'll still vote the Obama ticket in November, but I'm a bit of a sad panda. The only thing that makes me lol is that look at McCain's potential veep field. Haha.

Also, Colin Powell? Seriously? I mean he has zero credibility left. In ancient times you gave people like that their sword and politely inferred that they should go somewhere private and fall on it. He should never do a single thing in politics again. His gut check time was back in 2003 at the UN security council, and he could have chosen at any time to buck up. He didn't.

[Yog]

I am not a fan of Biden (I disagree on him on several political views), and he is probably not the best pick (I wanted Sebelius), but I think he is a solid pick nevertheless. Biden brings to the table exactly what the Obama campaign needs right now; perception of experience, resonance to blue collar voters and a heavyweight name in foreign policy. The man predicted the Russian - Georgian conflict about 6 months before it happens. He has more than 30 years of experience (a decade more than McCain btw), and he knows the inns and outs of political and legislation processes. He would be a valuable advisor and important asset of Obama's cabinet. Someone who is not afraid of giving a pragmatic counter argument if Obama goes over the top idealistic: "Look, I've been 30 years in politics and what you are proposing is crazy and won't work, and here is why...". He is the sort of political partner that would put Obama's feet on the ground when he needs it.

Certainly, he is a loudmouth, but that is as much of an asset as a negative I think. I don't see any potential GOP VP candidate that would be able to win a debate against him. He would eat Mitt Romney alive. For all the potential gaffes he would spill, the man is a fuming dynamite cube that gives a much needed punch in response and counter programming to the increasingly negative campaigning of McCain. He is a pitbull terrier ready to go on attack.

[Jedieb]

Certainly, he is a loudmouth, but that is as much of an asset as a negative I think. I don't see any potential GOP VP candidate that would be able to win a debate against him. He would eat Mitt Romney alive. For all the potential gaffes he would spill, the man is a fuming dynamite cube that gives a much needed punch in response and counter programming to the increasingly negative campaigning of McCain. He is a pitbull terrier ready to go on attack.

I agree. I think Biden's ability to fight back against McCain and RNC attacks is his greatest strength. We are finally in the home stretch and the attacks will only increase. Biden brings nothing electorally but being Catholic and ties to Penn. helps, a bit. I don't expect numbers to fluctutate this week. I think dissappointed Hillary supporters will leave Obama's numbers flat for much of this week. We'll see how much they come to their senses as the week progresses. Which reminds me of a funny bit I heard yesterday during the coverage. The PUMA who made the "I voted for Hillary now I'm voting for McCain" commercial for the McCain campaign had a press conference yesterday. During the press conference a reporter asked her how she felt about McCain's pro-life position and his pledge to appoint justices who will likely overturn Roe V. Wade. To which she basically replied; "I was under the impression he was pro-choice..." If bitter Hillary supporters vote for McCain because of issues, fine, I can live with that. But if they do it just out of spite then they deserve to have issues they care about trampled.

[Liam Jinn]

I'm a bit confused watching this DNC speech by Mrs. Clinton, but I have walked out of the room a few times. Does Hillary know she's not the Democrat running for President this year?

Edit: Oh, ok she's tying it up now, and is mentioning Obama, neat.

[Jedi Master Carr]

She did a good job in helping Obama that will help out a lot. I already know of 2 Hillary supporters who are voting for Obama now. I think we will see a little movement. About Biden, I knew Obama would pick an older white man. I was thinking Richardson, but I guess they decided they needed to start attack and went with Biden for that reason.

[Yog]

Here is the whole speech by Hillary Clinton on YouTube for those who missed it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=268ncnoitEc

Also, the speech by Michelle Obama is worth watching:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTFsB09KhqI

Bill Clinton:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3r6xvwPGcY

Joe Biden:
Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKsEWrYv3Uw) - Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jop31YLxF8) - Part 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09ugYiF5tSI) - Surprise appearance (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWeETTOrCRY)

I think the Clinton's not only redeemed themselves, but made themselves candidates to consider for position in Obama's cabinet. That is the Clinton I used to know. Where have they been for the last 8 months?

Hopefully, this should convince more of Hillary's supporters to vote Obama come November.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Anybody hear Palawtay from Minnesota might be the VP for Republicans? That would be an awful choice. He has no experience to be President. Romney makes the most chance but maybe Mccain just can't stand him. If he picks that guy he won't gain nothing from that.

[Jedieb]

I've seen all of the major speeches and I'm looking forward to tonight. For what it's worth from me, it's been a very good convention. The media has been running down practically every "divided party" story it could find but I think the 2 Clinton speeches have done much to quell that story. The inevitable convention bounce is now starting to show. I expect it to continue but just as quickly drop a bit with McCain's VP announcement on Friday and the RNC next week. Unless the Republicans have a horrendous convention next week, the two candidates should be back close to even by the end of next week.

During this convention the Republicans have been attacking as often as possible. They're going to keep up the "Celebrity" attacks. One of the things the Republicans know how to do is to take a candidate's strength and turn it against him. They used Kerry's military service against him in 04 and their going to use Obama's popularity and oratory gifts against him. The latest RNC talking points include criticisms of the set he's using for the speech tonight. The columns, the stage, it's a coronation, blah, blah, blah. Never mind that the set looks very similar to the one Bush spoke on in 04, the attack is what matters.

I'm curious to see what the Dems will do next week. Will they hammer away with surrogates, ads, or the candidates themselves? I think they need to have Biden hammering away starting Monday morning. Start spending that war chests and flood the airwaves with ads while the RNC convention plays itself out. Sit on your hands during next week and you'll be sitting back in the Senate in January.

I wonder what effect Gustav may have on the RNC convention next week? It's churning towards the Gulf Coast and could make landfall next Tues. What will the effect of seeing another hurricane slam into that area have? It'll certainly suck up media coverage, but who will that hurt? Will memories of the Bush administration, FEMA, and "Heck of job Brownie" hurt McCain? Or will a efficient response by the Federal government and VP prospect Jindal be a boost for McCain? Jindal is a long shot and my money is on Romney, but he's gotten a lot face time with McCain on the campaign trail and a good job next week would reflect well on McCain. It could end up meaning nothing at all but both parties are probably watching the Weather Channel right now.

[Sanis Prent]

Reposting my response to the "roman column" hit pieces from another forum because this is retarded and hilarious


Typical Optimate bluster about Populares and the supposed Ivory Obelisk elitism. Truly there is a good citizen among us to deliver a stinging rebuke unto Senator McCainus (lol ainus) that it was Corinthian columns that Diogenes of Synope reclined against when Alexander came to hear his rebuke? Why do the Optimates hate S.P.Q.R.?

[Jedi Master Carr]

I've seen all of the major speeches and I'm looking forward to tonight. For what it's worth from me, it's been a very good convention. The media has been running down practically every "divided party" story it could find but I think the 2 Clinton speeches have done much to quell that story. The inevitable convention bounce is now starting to show. I expect it to continue but just as quickly drop a bit with McCain's VP announcement on Friday and the RNC next week. Unless the Republicans have a horrendous convention next week, the two candidates should be back close to even by the end of next week.

During this convention the Republicans have been attacking as often as possible. They're going to keep up the "Celebrity" attacks. One of the things the Republicans know how to do is to take a candidate's strength and turn it against him. They used Kerry's military service against him in 04 and their going to use Obama's popularity and oratory gifts against him. The latest RNC talking points include criticisms of the set he's using for the speech tonight. The columns, the stage, it's a coronation, blah, blah, blah. Never mind that the set looks very similar to the one Bush spoke on in 04, the attack is what matters.

I'm curious to see what the Dems will do next week. Will they hammer away with surrogates, ads, or the candidates themselves? I think they need to have Biden hammering away starting Monday morning. Start spending that war chests and flood the airwaves with ads while the RNC convention plays itself out. Sit on your hands during next week and you'll be sitting back in the Senate in January.

I wonder what effect Gustav may have on the RNC convention next week? It's churning towards the Gulf Coast and could make landfall next Tues. What will the effect of seeing another hurricane slam into that area have? It'll certainly suck up media coverage, but who will that hurt? Will memories of the Bush administration, FEMA, and "Heck of job Brownie" hurt McCain? Or will a efficient response by the Federal government and VP prospect Jindal be a boost for McCain? Jindal is a long shot and my money is on Romney, but he's gotten a lot face time with McCain on the campaign trail and a good job next week would reflect well on McCain. It could end up meaning nothing at all but both parties are probably watching the Weather Channel right now.

Gustav could be huge, depending on how bad it is. Also the first NFL game is on next Thursday. I am surprised MCcain didn't bribe the NFL to move it.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Great speech by Obama. He really head his ground and attacked Mccain's attack. That wasn't what Kerry or Gore did in the last two elections. I love the challenge he sent to Mccain that is what he needed to do.

[Yog]

Aye, Obama rocked the house with 85,000 people watching:
http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/4190/denver1pl0.jpg

Full video of Obama's speech (clicky!) (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/26447607#26447607)

[Yog]

Anybody hear Palawtay from Minnesota might be the VP for Republicans? That would be an awful choice. He has no experience to be President. Romney makes the most chance but maybe Mccain just can't stand him. If he picks that guy he won't gain nothing from that.
I heard that too. Tim Pawlenty is a complete unknown to me. Look, I can't stand Romney, but I can see why he would be a logical choice if the republicans want to win. Haha, check out the first thing wikipedia says about Pawlenty: "As Governor, he has become well known for freezing taxes by cutting funding for programs that were purported to help the poor."

Edit: I don't think it's going to be Pawlenty:

DENVER (AP) — John McCain is keeping the name of his running mate a closely held secret just hours before the Republican presidential candidate is set to introduce his No. 2 at an Ohio rally.

"I'm not going to be there. I plan to be at the state fair. You can draw your conclusion from that," one top prospect, Minnesota Gov. Tim Pawlenty, said early Friday on his weekly call-in radio show on WCCO-AM in Minneapolis.
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jihHrCRRZzC-rvT1HKiq81CPPoiQD92RU5HO3

Edit 2: Currently, there is a lot of buzz about Sarah Palin, Governor of Alaska. She may be young and inexperienced, but I like her. The main thing I don't like she is running for the wrong party and I think she would pull a lot of Hillary voters... ugh. The cynical side of me hopes McCain picks some old fanatical crackpot so Obama will win more easily... :p
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Palin

Edit 3: Phew, it is not going to be Sarah Palin. ABC reports Palin is still in Alaska. So who is left? Joe Lieberman? Mitt Romney?



I wonder what effect Gustav may have on the RNC convention next week? It's churning towards the Gulf Coast and could make landfall next Tues. What will the effect of seeing another hurricane slam into that area have? It'll certainly suck up media coverage, but who will that hurt? Will memories of the Bush administration, FEMA, and "Heck of job Brownie" hurt McCain? Or will a efficient response by the Federal government and VP prospect Jindal be a boost for McCain? Jindal is a long shot and my money is on Romney, but he's gotten a lot face time with McCain on the campaign trail and a good job next week would reflect well on McCain. It could end up meaning nothing at all but both parties are probably watching the Weather Channel right now.
I think it looks bad from a PR point point of view having a convention for the party responsible for how screwed up the New Orleans situation got the last time, while having the remote, yet ominous possibility of another hurricane flooding the exact same city. Especially if Bush holds a speech while the hurricane makes landfall. Going on the negative while people need aid is not going to win much votes. Not to mention, it will probably steal headlines at the major news agencies, just when McCain wants the highlight to be on his campaign. Maybe the storm won't make that much damage, but even so, it's going to be a distraction.

[Yog]

Posting seperately about republican VP, since it is, you know, important. Will post updates as they come in.

- MSNBC says Romney isn't in Dayton...

- Lieberman is in Dayton!

- FoxNews.com speculating on ex e-Bay executive Meg Whitman.

- It is not going to be Romney.

Update - Ack, it may be Palin after all:
- Republican source says Palin is the nominee, CNBC reports (http://www.cnbc.com/id/26454655)
- Flight from, Anchorage to Dayton VIA ... Flagstaff, AZ (http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N387HA) (plane is owned by a McCain donor, Lacy Clay)
- Rev. Rob Schenck says he was told it is Palin (http://www.christiannewswire.com/news/681937666.html)
- The Drudge is calling it Palin (http://www.drudgereport.com/)
- Fox News and CNN is now confirming Palin.

I give up, I'll call it as well:
McCain / Palin 08

[Jedi Master Carr]

That is worse than the Gov of Minnesota. Especially since she is under investigation for a a huge scandal in Alaska.

[Yog]

That is worse than the Gov of Minnesota. Especially since she is under investigation for a a huge scandal in Alaska.
I am intrigued, tell me more about it.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Well I forget all the details, but her brother in law did something really bad I think embezzled money and she got him out of it. She has been under investigation for it for the past few months.

[Jedi Master Carr]

ok I was wrong about the scandal. I just remembered it involved her brother-in law. Her brother-in law is a state trooper and he was divorcing her sister. somebody in her office called his boss and try to fire him during the divorce. She is under investigation for it. Where it makes her look really bad is she criticized the previous governor who was corrupt. That is why this pick is crazy because if the staffer comes out and says she told her to do it or something, Mccain could have real egg on his face. Also she has no experience, to lead the country. If Mccain dropped dead the country be in a mess.

[Yog]

I think McCain's line of thinking is something like this:

- she is an attractive young woman (runner up in Miss Alaska).
- she hunts, eats moose burgers, ice fishes, rides snowmobiles, and owns a float plane (some kind of image there).
- she is pro life and life time member of NRA (appeals to some groups).
- she is the polar opposite of Biden.

The negatives though:
- she is little known.
- she has little experience.
- MSNBC bullet points: "44 years old, 80% approval rating, under investigation"
- is she REALLY qualified to go from being mayor then governor of middle of nowhere to the most powerful position in the world? I don't think so.



That is why this pick is crazy because if the staffer comes out and says she told her to do it or something, Mccain could have real egg on his face.
Yeah, that could turn ugly. Nevermind if there is any substance to the allegations, the mere fact she is under investigation is bad enough and a distraction to McCain's campaign.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I also think she is too conservative to attract that many women. Unless they are just plain stupid. She used to be a Pat Buchanan supporter and everybody knows that man is a racist.

[Figrin D'an]

Interesting choice. She will have very little immediate impact on McCain's campaign because she is such an unknown, unlike Obama choosing Biden. It's hard to say what she'll bring to the table, but I guess we'll find out.

[CMJ]

She's kinda sexy.

At least I'll enjoy watching her campaign.

[Yog]

I first thought this was a clever move, but now I have some doubts.

I still can't get over how McCain thought a mayor of a town of 5,000 people in Wasilla (where?) and governor for 18 months would be the right fit for such a heavy position. That is one hell of a bold move that is either going to be genius masterstroke or a disaster. What major assets does she bring to the table except gender and good looks? In one movement, McCain renders the "inexperience" argument he had about Obama into a self contradiction.

Here is an interview with Gov. Sarah Palin on the Wooten scandal and VP, just one month ago..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pak-rH0dCeA


"As for that V.P. talk all the time, I’ll tell you, I still can’t answer that question until somebody answers for me what is it exactly that the V.P. does every day?"
Ouch. Just ouch.

[Jedieb]

So it's Palin. Ever since Hillary got passed over I thought there was a good chance McCain would go for a woman but I really had no idea who it might be. Now we get to see how she stands up under the spotlight. I'm surprised she's under any kind of investigation. I can't see how McCain would pick someone who could have a scandal blow up on her in the middle of a campaign. Biden's has his plagerism skeleton, but it's almost 20 years old, he paid his penance by dropping out, and he's been relatively clean since then.

It's interesting that each candidate chose a VP that echoed their opposition. Obama chose a senior senator with foreign policy experience and McCain chose a relative newcomer in their 40's. How do either of them attack the other on age or experience now? The experience attack by McCain is going to be tricky now that he's chosen a VP that's actually younger than Obama. Just what foreign policy experience does she have? If McCain thinks she's ready for the presidency then how can he say that Obama isn't? And how do you keep attacking Obama as a celebrity when you've nominated a beauty queen?

Gustav already has Republicans talking about rescheduling events and canceling speakers. Bush may not even make his speech on Monday. It looks like this storm is going to be competing with the convention for headlines next week.

[Jedieb]

I first thought this was a clever move, but now I have some doubts.

I still can't get over how McCain thought a mayor of a town of 5,000 people in Wasilla (where?) and governor for 18 months would be the right fit for such a heavy position. That is one hell of a bold move that is either going to be genius masterstroke or a disaster. What major assets does she bring to the table except gender and good looks? In one movement, McCain renders the "inexperience" argument he had about Obama into a self contradiction.

Here is an interview with Gov. Sarah Palin on the Wooten scandal and VP, just one month ago..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pak-rH0dCeA


"As for that V.P. talk all the time, I’ll tell you, I still can’t answer that question until somebody answers for me what is it exactly that the V.P. does every day?"
Ouch. Just ouch.

This almost reminds me of Bush Sr.'s choice of Quayle. He was eventually seen as a bad choice, but that still didn't stop Bush from clobbering Dukakis. Biden may end up wiping the floor with her, but at the end of the day the election is always about the man at the top.

[Yog]

This almost reminds me of Bush Sr.'s choice of Quayle. He was eventually seen as a bad choice, but that still didn't stop Bush from clobbering Dukakis. Biden may end up wiping the floor with her, but at the end of the day the election is always about the man at the top.
That's true. Was not the deal about Dukakis, he run a horrible campaign, alienated voters, and that caused his numbers to plummet?

[Jedieb]

You can sum up Dukakis' campaing with 2 items;
1. Willie Horton
2. Bobblehead riding a tank.

The first a sleazeball attack from Lee Atwater, the second was quite possibly the worst photo op in the history of U.S. Presidential races.

[CMJ]

He also had the personality of a slug. And his debate performances were sucktastic.

[Jedi Master Carr]

He also had the personality of a slug. And his debate performances were sucktastic.

LOL that is true, he just came off so horrible. If Gary Hart hadn't had that sex scandal I think he would have been the nominee. I really don't see either VP mattering. It only has made a difference once in the last 50 years.

[Jedieb]

The more I think about it, the Dems are going to have some serious ammo now whenever McCain brings up the experience issue. This choice seems to be almost completely predicated on the Obama not choosing Hillary. A pro-life beauty queen from Alaska is what they're banking on to steal fanatical Hillary supporters? I don't think they're too many people on the planet that will confuse Palin and Hillary, these two women don't have much in common. If I were working with the Obama camp I'd be begging Hillary to start taking shots at her through the press.

[Yog]

^^ I'd be curious to hear what your wife thinks about the McCain ticket now that he has a women as a running mate.

Watching at her acceptance speech, I think she will cause some excitement for the republicans, at least in the short term:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/26456697#26457563

In the meanwhile, it is clear that the DNC had a good effect for Obama on the polls:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/109897/Gallup-Daily-Obama-Moves-Ahead-48-42.aspx

[Jedi Master Carr]

^^ I'd be curious to hear what your wife thinks about the McCain ticket now that he has a women as a running mate.

Watching at her acceptance speech, I think she will cause some excitement for the republicans, at least in the short term:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/26456697#26457563

In the meanwhile, it is clear that the DNC had a good effect for Obama on the polls:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/109897/Gallup-Daily-Obama-Moves-Ahead-48-42.aspx

That is a good bounce, although it doesn't show what impact Thursday night had on it, although the VP probably will negate some of that. I think going into the Republican convention it will be 5-7 points.

[Jedieb]

^^ I'd be curious to hear what your wife thinks about the McCain ticket now that he has a women as a running mate.

Watching at her acceptance speech, I think she will cause some excitement for the republicans, at least in the short term:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/26456697#26457563

In the meanwhile, it is clear that the DNC had a good effect for Obama on the polls:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/109897/Gallup-Daily-Obama-Moves-Ahead-48-42.aspx

I called her 2 minutes after I found out. Her first response was, "Well, he did it because Obama didn't pick Hillary." I think many Hillary supporters will instantly feel the same way. Palin still has a chance to make an impression on them. She's a blank slate nationally. Her debate with Biden will be interesting to watch.

If you want to see this pick get raked over the coals and the DNC plan of attack, watch MSNBC tonight. If you want to see how the GOP is going to try to spin it, watch FOX. That's pretty much how cable coverage has broken down now. From what I've seen this election, CNN seems to be somewhere between MSNBC/Dems and FOX/Reps. It's kind of sad to watch either of them at times. You can flip back and forth just to see how any issue or event is going to be spun.

[Jedi Master Carr]

^^ I'd be curious to hear what your wife thinks about the McCain ticket now that he has a women as a running mate.

Watching at her acceptance speech, I think she will cause some excitement for the republicans, at least in the short term:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/26456697#26457563

In the meanwhile, it is clear that the DNC had a good effect for Obama on the polls:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/109897/Gallup-Daily-Obama-Moves-Ahead-48-42.aspx

I called her 2 minutes after I found out. Her first response was, "Well, he did it because Obama didn't pick Hillary." I think many Hillary supporters will instantly feel the same way. Palin still has a chance to make an impression on them. She's a blank slate nationally. Her debate with Biden will be interesting to watch.

If you want to see this pick get raked over the coals and the DNC plan of attack, watch MSNBC tonight. If you want to see how the GOP is going to try to spin it, watch FOX. That's pretty much how cable coverage has broken down now. From what I've seen this election, CNN seems to be somewhere between MSNBC/Dems and FOX/Reps. It's kind of sad to watch either of them at times. You can flip back and forth just to see how any issue or event is going to be spun.

That is the pretty true, although not before 9AM EST on MSNBC. Morning Joe feels like Fox and Friends some mornings.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Also we've got two storms out there. TS Hanna could hit land late next week. It is looking like the SE right now.

[Yog]

I saw this posted at SA. Perhaps a bit childish, but I could not resist posting it here :lol

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/4210/mcsameil6.jpg

[Jedieb]

Some people are applauding the pick, some are ripping it. As the talking heads make their rounds, here are 3 possible reasons for McCain's choice;

1) She can peel off some disappointed Hillary voters.
2) She will appease and excite the evangelical base has so far been lukewarm to McCain.
3) She's a reformer who has more executive experience than the other 3 candidates combined.

Now, 2 is the best of the bunch. Unfortunately for McCain, I think 1 and 3 are pipe dreams. Die hard Hillary voters are not going to be won over by this woman. She doesn't speak to them or the issues they care about. And eventually, they're going to notice that many of the people tripping over this great "woman" have a long history of bashing Hillary whenever they had the chance. Much of this fake, right wing sympathy for Clinton is coming from people who HATE her guts and have for years. They're simply being patronized, and many of them will recognize it. As for 3, her executive experience comes to less than 2 years as governor of a state will around 600,000. And the town she was mayor of had less than 10,000 people. And even if they compare it with Obama's record, it eventually undercuts McCain's 'Ready on Day 1" message. Because only a blind fool would give Palin a huge edge in experience over Obama. The best any McCain supporter could realistically ever hope of convincing any undecided is that it's a push, and again, that blows away his experience attack.

Reason 2 is the one that's going to give McCain the biggest boost, but I seriously think this is going to end up hurting McCain. I mean, will someone come on this thread and defend his pick? I'm serious, do we have a McCain supporter that's happy about this pick? I'd like to hear from them.

[CMJ]

She can end the recession.....

In my pants.

;)

[Yog]

She can end the recession.....

In my pants.

;)

I think we got a supporter right there.. ;)

[Jedieb]

She can end the recession.....

In my pants.

;)

:lol
Holy crap, that made me laugh so hard I almost started crying. You've grown into a fine, evil man. :evil

[Yog]

It seems most of the republicans are excited, at least for now. There is some moaning though:

http://www.adn.com/news/politics/story/510249.html
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/8/29/125530/561/942/578766


State Senate President Lyda Green said she thought it was a joke when someone called her at 6 a.m. to tell her the news.

"She's not prepared to be governor. How can she be prepared to be vice president or president? said Green, a Republican from Palin's hometown of Wasilla. "Look at what she's done to this state. What would she do to the nation?"

Green, who has feuded with Palin, brought up the big oil tax increase Palin pushed through last year. She also pointed to the award of a $500 million state subsidy to a Canadian firm to pursue a natural gas pipeline that's far from guaranteed.

House Speaker John Harris, a Republican from Valdez, was also astonished at the news. He didn't want to get into the issue of her qualifications.

"She's old enough," Harris said. "She's a U.S. citizen."

Republican leaders, in her own state..

[Rutabaga]

I have chosen to stay out of this thread until now, just because politics is such a touchy subject.

But I'll say a couple of things right now.

First of all, I'm an Obama supporter, just so you have full disclosure. I am a registered non-partisan, but I do have progressive leanings. I believe we need a tremendous change in this country which John McCain simply cannot deliver.

Second of all, as a woman, I find John McCain's selection of Sarah Palin to be incredibly stupid and insulting. For everyone to be crowing now that all Hillary Clinton supporters will now vote for McCain just because of this choice, then they all have another think coming. It was nothing more than a politically motivated choice that I hope will be blowing up in their faces.

This also means that the GOP MUST stop with the nagging about Obama's alleged lack of experience. So then McCain picks someone even younger than Obama who has been governor of Alaska for 18 months, and she's qualified and experienced enough to be president? Ha!

As you can tell, I feel quite heated about this. My mother, on the other hand, who is the #1 cheerleader for Fox "News," thinks it was a marvelous exciting choice. This is why my parents and I can never discuss politics, because our views are so diametrically opposed.

[CMJ]

:lol
Holy crap, that made me laugh so hard I almost started crying. You've grown into a fine, evil man. :evil

Hey man, what can I say. She is a really sexy woman.

http://vpilf.com/

Not my site, but I'm not ashamed to say I agree. :D

[Rutabaga]

I saw this posted at SA. Perhaps a bit childish, but I could not resist posting it here :lol

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/4210/mcsameil6.jpg

Thank you, I'm stealing that.

[Yog]

^^ Sure go ahead!

I agree she looks great. But does anyone on this site think she would have been chosen if she were a man? I dare even the staunchest republican / conservative to answer yes to that question with a straight face.


Edit: Apparently McCain never really met with Palin, except for a few minutes and a brief conversation on the phone:

Palin first met McCain in March, McAllister said, when she was in Washington and requested a meeting with McCain about oil drilling in Alaska. McAllister said Palin later talked to McCain for five minutes by phone last Sunday, while she was at the Alaska state fair.
Source: LINK (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/08/29/palin_selection_surprised_her.html#more)
http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/archives/2008/08/vp_who.php


.. also this:

It looks like John McCain's new running mate, Sarah Palin, could be hit with some decidedly negative PR at the worst possible time. The Alaska legislature's investigation of whether Governor Palin improperly fired a state employee is scheduled to wrap up and release its findings just days before the November election.
Source: LINK (http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/08/palin_probe_could_mean_election.php)

:whaa

[Jedieb]

She's a Rush Limpbuagh special. Seriously, she's so far right on social issues that she's a dream choice for many evangelicals. I think McCain is hoping he can get Bush's hardcore supporters and more with her. But I just don't see Independents flocking to McCain because of this. And she's going to get vetted by the press. McCain, Obama, and Biden have been around for awhile now. She's fresh meat for the national media and they're going to be all over her. I really think she's going to end up being the double X Quayle.

[Rutabaga]

I really liked the comment I heard someone make on Rachel Maddow's show on Air America a while ago...this is John McCain's Harriet Miers moment.

That was such an insane choice on Bush's part, who would have thought that McCain would exceed it?

It's okay as long as it takes the Miers route and ends up with the nomination being withdrawn. If it's not withdrawn, then I will gleefully watch the VP debate and see Joe Biden wipe up the floor with her.

Oh, and Real Time With Bill Maher returns TONIGHT on HBO...can't wait, I'm sure this will be a gut-buster for him.

[Jaime Tomahawk]

She's a Rush Limpbuagh special. Seriously, she's so far right on social issues that she's a dream choice for many evangelicals. I think McCain is hoping he can get Bush's hardcore supporters and more with her. But I just don't see Independents flocking to McCain because of this. And she's going to get vetted by the press. McCain, Obama, and Biden have been around for awhile now. She's fresh meat for the national media and they're going to be all over her. I really think she's going to end up being the double X Quayle.

This is a Hail Mary pass - and I think if you look at the fact McCain has almost never spoken to her and the smell of corruption - and she supports drilling of ANWR which is something Obama is making a point of rejecting and rightly so - someone didnt do their VP vetting properly. The McCain campaign panicked when they really saw what was being lined up against them - a Democrat party that is united and out for Republican blood. This is a terrible high risk choice that will not consolidate the Republican base, will not grab women voters due to Palin's highly Pro Life stances, will not appeal to independants and very likely expose a political lightweight.

This plays right into the Democrat narrative of Judgment, let alone all the other negatives that are rapidly coming to light about Palin, let alone the blatant panderign that is frankly an insult to real Hillary supporters. What the HELL were the Republicans thinking???? You keep Hail Mary passes on the football field, not in a bloody Presidential election verses a resurgent and united Democrat party.

[Rutabaga]

I've been doing a lot of cruising on the net since the announcement yesterday, and I swear the weirdest allegations I've heard so far are that Palin's son with Down Syndrome is actually her grandson, that he is the child of her 17-year-old daughter and Palin pretended to be pregnant to cover it up. The Daily Kos has a major post about it.

This is truly bizarre stuff, but photographic evidence is compelling, although admittedly circumstantial. The sad thing is, apparently the National Enquirer is on the case. Considering how successfully they blew John Edwards out of the water...well, if anyone can get to the bottom of this allegation, it's them I guess. Although I definitely threw up in my mouth a little bit while typing that.

I'm curious for insight from our non-US posters...how is this news about Palin's selection as VP being viewed overseas?

[Jaime Tomahawk]

I'm curious for insight from our non-US posters...how is this news about Palin's selection as VP being viewed overseas?

Pretty much as I just posted - a "Hail Mary" move with a lot of chance to backfire, that panders to a demographic (wavering Democrats) that no longer exists, irresponsible, or a game changer that wins the election.

Mostly it's "What the HELL was McCain thinking????" and then ignoring the whole thing and watch coverage about Gustav instead.

Edit : As much as I would love that baby thing to really depth charge the Republicans into the oblivion they so richly deserve, it's not worth the disk space it's presently on. Not until someone comes up with real evidence which there wont be. I'll take "Ban me for a month" if I'm wrong and there really is something to it.

Edit 2 : The news here about Palin has begun to turn into "Why on earth was she selected when she's clearly completely unprepared and has no knowledge about issues?" Lots of questions beginning to be floated like that.

[Yog]

I'm curious for insight from our non-US posters...how is this news about Palin's selection as VP being viewed overseas?
The main consensus here, it was a surprising choice, and her lack of experience is highlighted. The news papers write about how McCain hardly knew her before picking her and that she has more conservative values in areas such as gay rights, abortion and gun ownership, and that she panders to the religious right. It's mainly viewed as a tactical move to counter Obama not picking Hillary. No one seriously believe she is qualified for the job, but then again, most recognize American politics is a very different sphere of reality.


The news here about Palin has begun to turn into "Why on earth was she selected when she's clearly completely unprepared and has no knowledge about issues?" Lots of questions beginning to be floated like that.
Yeah, that is the trend here as well.

[Jaime Tomahawk]

I think the "WTF was she picked??" will pick up in the next few days in the USA as well. The meme of "One heartbeat away from being President" is something you should look at with McCain - whomever becomes VP really does have a good chance of becoming President midterm.

The more I'm reading, the more I think she's going to come up seriously wanting in that regard (certainly from what I can read there's not a chance in hell I'd think she was ready for any Government job - she threw a town of 8000 into debt of 20 million!!!) and also the thought that she was not vetted properly is made stronger. HOW they let this one get past the keeper I have no idea.

The potential for campaign trainwreck is huge.

[Rutabaga]

Thanks so much for the info...that's one of the things that so amazes me about this pick, because one of the things that the next president simply MUST do is improve the standing of America in the eyes of the world. Electing McCain and Palin will not accomplish that. Personally, if it does happen, I can see a rerun of that classic headline in a London newspaper the day after Bush was re-elected, that said something to the effect of "How could 54 million people be so dumb?"

I've spent a lot of time at the Huffington Post over the last couple of days, and it's been hilarious seeing the lengths some people are going to to attempt to justify the selection. One person even said that because Palin's nickname has been "Barracuda" and because she was a hockey mom instead of a soccer mom, then terrorists and dictators were already shaking in their boots. I responded that yeah, they may be shaking in their boots, but it's because they're laughing so hard.

My dear sweet mother, who is a complete Fox "News" syncophant, thinks this was a marvelous and exciting choice on McCain's part :cry. Now, we already know that just about everyone at Fox "News" is a moron, but here is a shocking moment of ignorance that was said in all seriousness Friday morning that simply can't be defended. Watch, and be prepared to fall right out of your chair:

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[Jedi Master Carr]

I had heard rumors that Mccain really wanted Hutchinson, but she is wanting to get out of Washington and turned him down. So I think this choice was his second or third choice. Oh the RNC convention is going to be a mess. I am not sure what kind of convention they will have. They also have to be careful that they don't look like they are trying to use the hurricane for political points.

[Rutabaga]

According to this article in the NY Times, McCain wanted Lieberman (oh, how rich that would have been), but was talked out of it. Then apparently he made one of his fabled gut instinct decisions, and voila, here we are in this mess.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/31/us/politics/31reconstruct.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

:rolleyes

[Rutabaga]

OMG.

:eek

That YouTube clip I posted earlier this morning?

:eek

Cindy McCain repeated the same assertion on ABC today.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/greg-mitchell/cindy-mccain-on-abc-today_b_122759.html

Oh, the humanity!!! :x

[CMJ]

I've been doing a lot of cruising on the net since the announcement yesterday, and I swear the weirdest allegations I've heard so far are that Palin's son with Down Syndrome is actually her grandson, that he is the child of her 17-year-old daughter and Palin pretended to be pregnant to cover it up. The Daily Kos has a major post about it.

I heard about this.

However, for Women over 40 the chance for having a child with Down's Syndrome is about 5%. For a girl of 16 to carry a child to term with Down's is really, really low. Not saying impossible, but the chances are remote.

[Jedieb]

If McCain ends up winning this election, people will look back at his selection of Palin as the turning point. If she ends up being a successful pick it won't be because she picked off angry Hillary voters. It will be for one reason and one reason only; she excited the BASE. I can't tell you how many glowing responses I've heard, seen, and read from evangelicals. The base that Rove used to help Bush squeak by Gore and beat Kerry is who Palin is meant to excite and she's doing it. Most everyone outside of that base will have serious doubts about her lack of experience and how her selection completely undercuts McCain's attack on Obama's experience. But the Republican religious base could care less about those facts. She thinks global warming isn't being influenced by man, creationism should be taught side by side with evolution, and abortion should be completely outlawed. She's their dream candidate. She could have come straight from her position as mayor, skipped the governorship of Alaska, and they'd STILL be thrilled.

And right now, this pick has SUCCEEDED in this regard. The republican base is excited for perhaps the first time since McCain clinched the nomination. Only time will tell if it'll be enough, but McCain has gotten a short term shot in the arm and blunted the effect of Obama's speech. We'll see how it holds up as the week progresses and Gustav dominates the news and derails the first 2 days of the RNC convention.

[Csephion Draxus]

She can end the recession.....

In my pants.

;)

Well played.

Somebody was yammering on about the "Palin Bounce" in the polls, to which I asked "What, is she doing jumping jacks?"

I was then accosted for sexually belittling the candidate, which I think is completely in-bounds when you nominate a comedy ticket, so hey.

[Jedi Master Carr]

If McCain ends up winning this election, people will look back at his selection of Palin as the turning point. If she ends up being a successful pick it won't be because she picked off angry Hillary voters. It will be for one reason and one reason only; she excited the BASE. I can't tell you how many glowing responses I've heard, seen, and read from evangelicals. The base that Rove used to help Bush squeak by Gore and beat Kerry is who Palin is meant to excite and she's doing it. Most everyone outside of that base will have serious doubts about her lack of experience and how her selection completely undercuts McCain's attack on Obama's experience. But the Republican religious base could care less about those facts. She thinks global warming isn't being influenced by man, creationism should be taught side by side with evolution, and abortion should be completely outlawed. She's their dream candidate. She could have come straight from her position as mayor, skipped the governorship of Alaska, and they'd STILL be thrilled.

And right now, this pick has SUCCEEDED in this regard. The republican base is excited for perhaps the first time since McCain clinched the nomination. Only time will tell if it'll be enough, but McCain has gotten a short term shot in the arm and blunted the effect of Obama's speech. We'll see how it holds up as the week progresses and Gustav dominates the news and derails the first 2 days of the RNC convention.
Well I am not sure that will be enough. He needs to get the independents to win. There are more democrats than Republicans and they are very enthusade about obama. i don't think this helps him with those people at all. Also last poll had Obama up 48-41. He got a pretty good bounce from the convention. I don't think mccain will get a bounce from the RNC with Gustav dominating.

[Csephion Draxus]

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So let's see...

McCain dumps first wife after she gets disfigured in a horrible car wreck.
He then marries a younger, prettier, richer wife.
Is the third time the charm?

What a scumbag.

[Jedieb]

If McCain ends up winning this election, people will look back at his selection of Palin as the turning point. If she ends up being a successful pick it won't be because she picked off angry Hillary voters. It will be for one reason and one reason only; she excited the BASE. I can't tell you how many glowing responses I've heard, seen, and read from evangelicals. The base that Rove used to help Bush squeak by Gore and beat Kerry is who Palin is meant to excite and she's doing it. Most everyone outside of that base will have serious doubts about her lack of experience and how her selection completely undercuts McCain's attack on Obama's experience. But the Republican religious base could care less about those facts. She thinks global warming isn't being influenced by man, creationism should be taught side by side with evolution, and abortion should be completely outlawed. She's their dream candidate. She could have come straight from her position as mayor, skipped the governorship of Alaska, and they'd STILL be thrilled.

And right now, this pick has SUCCEEDED in this regard. The republican base is excited for perhaps the first time since McCain clinched the nomination. Only time will tell if it'll be enough, but McCain has gotten a short term shot in the arm and blunted the effect of Obama's speech. We'll see how it holds up as the week progresses and Gustav dominates the news and derails the first 2 days of the RNC convention.
Well I am not sure that will be enough. He needs to get the independents to win. There are more democrats than Republicans and they are very enthusade about obama. i don't think this helps him with those people at all. Also last poll had Obama up 48-41. He got a pretty good bounce from the convention. I don't think mccain will get a bounce from the RNC with Gustav dominating.

Zogby has a poll out that has McCain up 45-44 and the Gallup poll that had Obama up 49-41 now has it down to a 6 point lead, 48-42. So his convention bounce is already starting to contract, which was expected. I hope that you're right about Independents. I also think demographics and shifting party identifications will help democrats as well. I know I'm glad that my state of Virginia will finally be in play. I'm waiting until the school year gets underway and our schedules get settled and then I'm heading down to the local Obama headquarters to see what I can do.

Gustav has already rewritten the first day of the convention, Bush isn't speaking, and many attendees from the region are skipping it altogether. The tone of the speeches are being altered. I'm just curious if we'll ever find out how many 'experience attacks' had to be changed or ditched altogether because of the Palin selection.

[Rutabaga]

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So let's see...

McCain dumps first wife after she gets disfigured in a horrible car wreck.
He then marries a younger, prettier, richer wife.
Is the third time the charm?

What a scumbag.

Ditto. It's not surprising that conservatives have chosen to ignore the fact that McCain was totally caught checking the chassis more than once.

Have any of you seen the cover picture for the new People magazine? Like I saw somebody describe it, it seems to have a whole Addams Family vibe to it. And McCain looks so stiff and uncomfortable, it's almost sad.

[Jaime Tomahawk]

Zogby has a poll out that has McCain up 45-44 and the Gallup poll that had Obama up 49-41 now has it down to a 6 point lead, 48-42. So his convention bounce is already starting to contract, which was expected. I hope that you're right about Independents. I also think demographics and shifting party identifications will help democrats as well. I know I'm glad that my state of Virginia will finally be in play. I'm waiting until the school year gets underway and our schedules get settled and then I'm heading down to the local Obama headquarters to see what I can do.

Gustav has already rewritten the first day of the convention, Bush isn't speaking, and many attendees from the region are skipping it altogether. The tone of the speeches are being altered. I'm just curious if we'll ever find out how many 'experience attacks' had to be changed or ditched altogether because of the Palin selection.

Remeber Obama supporters, phonebank like your 30 points down. do NOT think this is in the bag.

One of the things to remeber about the fundamentalist Christian base is that anyone appealing to that will automatically turn off Independants. McCain needs them badly - and a climate change denier isnt going to go down too well with many who see Climate change as a big issue - as they should. When Obama is makign such a big thing of "green Economy" and she wants to open up nature reserves and drill drill drill.... My Lord, that spells electoral damage. Oh she might be igniting the Republican base but that's just also opening up for more linking of McCain = The Same.

Plus also the hints are the Republican base is much smaller now and the Democrat base has grown a lot. Obama uniting his base means a lot more than McCain maybe uniting his.

They'll be a few days of people being interested then I think you will see that her stances are going to cause some real problems and also open up areas for attack for Obama. The biggest is the linking of McCain to Bush and to destroy his maverick image. And thence he will lose independants.

Rutabaga, the fact is that Bush has done incredible damage to the USA's international standing - much greater than I think even those who read my rantings about that failure would realise. A third Republican term is already seen as a total disaster and would result in the USA being sidelined and with the rising powers of Russia and China taking it's palce in world affairs. Obama is seen as bringing sanity back. It's nto that there's anti American bias in media or that, it's that Iraq and now the Credit crisis have had real effects on all of us, especially to our pockets with higher prices and inflation, economic downturns etc.

Understand that is why so many of us are watching what happens and are so keen to see Obama in - Bush has affected us over the world badly. we also just dont understand how it could possibly be close as if any of our parties did such a horrible job, they would not get a third chance. How McCain could have that possibility given the Republicans have so screwed up.... how is that possible?

If McCain does win, I wouldnt be surprised to see the USA become even more isolated just out of sheer WTF alone.

[Rutabaga]

If McCain ends up winning this election, people will look back at his selection of Palin as the turning point. If she ends up being a successful pick it won't be because she picked off angry Hillary voters. It will be for one reason and one reason only; she excited the BASE. I can't tell you how many glowing responses I've heard, seen, and read from evangelicals. The base that Rove used to help Bush squeak by Gore and beat Kerry is who Palin is meant to excite and she's doing it. Most everyone outside of that base will have serious doubts about her lack of experience and how her selection completely undercuts McCain's attack on Obama's experience. But the Republican religious base could care less about those facts. She thinks global warming isn't being influenced by man, creationism should be taught side by side with evolution, and abortion should be completely outlawed. She's their dream candidate. She could have come straight from her position as mayor, skipped the governorship of Alaska, and they'd STILL be thrilled.

And right now, this pick has SUCCEEDED in this regard. The republican base is excited for perhaps the first time since McCain clinched the nomination. Only time will tell if it'll be enough, but McCain has gotten a short term shot in the arm and blunted the effect of Obama's speech. We'll see how it holds up as the week progresses and Gustav dominates the news and derails the first 2 days of the RNC convention.
Well I am not sure that will be enough. He needs to get the independents to win. There are more democrats than Republicans and they are very enthusade about obama. i don't think this helps him with those people at all. Also last poll had Obama up 48-41. He got a pretty good bounce from the convention. I don't think mccain will get a bounce from the RNC with Gustav dominating.

Zogby has a poll out that has McCain up 45-44 and the Gallup poll that had Obama up 49-41 now has it down to a 6 point lead, 48-42. So his convention bounce is already starting to contract, which was expected. I hope that you're right about Independents. I also think demographics and shifting party identifications will help democrats as well. I know I'm glad that my state of Virginia will finally be in play. I'm waiting until the school year gets underway and our schedules get settled and then I'm heading down to the local Obama headquarters to see what I can do.

Gustav has already rewritten the first day of the convention, Bush isn't speaking, and many attendees from the region are skipping it altogether. The tone of the speeches are being altered. I'm just curious if we'll ever find out how many 'experience attacks' had to be changed or ditched altogether because of the Palin selection.

Heaven knows I don't move through the largest social circle in the world, and I tend to avoid discussing politics with people since it's so divisive. That said, however, so far the only person I know who loves this pick is my mother. Everyone else is disgusted and dismayed, and simply can't believe it.

But we do have to heed the advice of Michel Martin of NPR, who was on Bill Maher's show Friday night...we have to be really careful not to dismiss Palin out of hand, because we could end up underestimating her at our peril.

[Yog]

Zogby has a poll out that has McCain up 45-44 and the Gallup poll that had Obama up 49-41 now has it down to a 6 point lead, 48-42. So his convention bounce is already starting to contract, which was expected.
Although, let's not forget about that bizarro electoral system you guys have. Using Zogby as an example (since McCain is polling well there), Obama would have 260 "safe" electoral votes, McCain would have 173, and 105 votes are too close to call. Obama would only need 10 of those swing votes, getting the required 270 to win:
http://www.zogby.com/50state/

Admittedly, it's based on 15-19 august number, but Obama is probably polling a bit stronger now. FiveThirtyEight (http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/) says about the same thing.



Remeber Obama supporters, phonebank like your 30 points down. do NOT think this is in the bag.
Aye, this is important to emphasise. The balance can change very quickly. Past presidential races have shown that.

[Rutabaga]

Rutabaga, the fact is that Bush has done incredible damage to the USA's international standing - much greater than I think even those who read my rantings about that failure would realise. A third Republican term is already seen as a total disaster and would result in the USA being sidelined and with the rising powers of Russia and China taking it's palce in world affairs. Obama is seen as bringing sanity back. It's nto that there's anti American bias in media or that, it's that Iraq and now the Credit crisis have had real effects on all of us, especially to our pockets with higher prices and inflation, economic downturns etc.

Understand that is why so many of us are watching what happens and are so keen to see Obama in - Bush has affected us over the world badly. we also just dont understand how it could possibly be close as if any of our parties did such a horrible job, they would not get a third chance. How McCain could have that possibility given the Republicans have so screwed up.... how is that possible?

If McCain does win, I wouldnt be surprised to see the USA become even more isolated just out of sheer WTF alone.

That is exactly why I'm so keen to see Obama in the White House. Almost desperate, as a matter of fact. America's standing in the world has been so badly damaged, and the only one of the two candidates who has any hope of repairing that damage is Obama. The idea of McCain (or McBush or McSame, as I usually call him) getting 4 or 8 years to continue the policies of the Bush administration literally makes me nauseous. And I can't understand why there are so many people who seem to be willing to give him that chance. A McCain presidency would take what is already a disaster as far as our reputation and our abilities are concerned and turn it into catastrophic tragedy that we might never recover from. Especially if McCain bombs Iran, which I'm convinced he will do (if Bush doesn't do it already in October to try to secure the election for McCain).

Thank you so much for the input, I really appreciate it.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Zogby has been strange this year they have been polling well for Mccain the whole time. Well they also gave the elections to Kerry and Gore the last two times so what do they know.

[Jedieb]

Zogby has a poll out that has McCain up 45-44 and the Gallup poll that had Obama up 49-41 now has it down to a 6 point lead, 48-42. So his convention bounce is already starting to contract, which was expected.
Although, let's not forget about that bizarro electoral system you guys have. Using Zogby as an example (since McCain is polling well there), Obama would have 260 "safe" electoral votes, McCain would have 173, and 105 votes are too close to call. Obama would only need 10 of those swing votes, getting the required 270 to win:
http://www.zogby.com/50state/

Admittedly, it's based on 15-19 august number, but Obama is probably polling a bit stronger now. FiveThirtyEight (http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/) says about the same thing.



Remeber Obama supporters, phonebank like your 30 points down. do NOT think this is in the bag.
Aye, this is important to emphasise. The balance can change very quickly. Past presidential races have shown that.

That number of 260 "safe" votes is WAY too high. It's closer to 200. States like Penn., and Mich. are still close and contested. There are great sites out there to track the race not just by nationwide polls, but state by state electoral polls.

http://www.electoral-vote.com/
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/

Real Clear Politics is a GREAT site for national poll numbers. The RCP average is often used by media outlets to summarize the state of the race. They also have links to polls from battleground states and they give an electoral update. For example, today they've got the electoral race at;

Obama 228
McCain 185

The low numbers are because they've excluded toss up states because the polling has it too close to call. But they also take the averages over months and call a "winner." Without toss ups they've got;

Obama 273
McCain 265

It's a very close race right now. Obama has had a lead for weeks now, but he's simply not going to be able to pull away. I'm very curious to see how the needle moves during the debates.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Well I think he could pull away a little like take 290-300 electoral votes if he gets Virginia, Colorado, New Mexico, Nevada, and maybe Ohio. But I think those states will be close.

[Figrin D'an]

Understand that is why so many of us are watching what happens and are so keen to see Obama in - Bush has affected us over the world badly. we also just dont understand how it could possibly be close as if any of our parties did such a horrible job, they would not get a third chance. How McCain could have that possibility given the Republicans have so screwed up.... how is that possible?

If McCain does win, I wouldnt be surprised to see the USA become even more isolated just out of sheer WTF alone.


A McCain victory would not surprise me at all, given that his VP choice has begun to energize the same conservative base that allowed Bush to win two straight elections (as Jedieb mentioned). If McCain panders the right a bit more, he'll draw them out in enough numbers to steal the election in the same manner that Bush did... especially if Obama's supporters back down on their intensity towards this election in any way.


As sad as it may be, most evangelical conservatives have their political priorities set up as something like this:

1) Abortion
2) Fire Arms Rights
3) Creationism/Christianity in public schools
4) Energy policies that keep the status quo (ie. drill more oil, deny climate change)
5) Everything else, including economics, national security, foreign policy.


As completed screwed up as those priorities may seem to most independents, liberals and most of the rest of the world, it is the reality that exists in the United States today. I know this first hand... a good portion of my own family is very conservative, and that list pretty much fits them like a glove. I was at family gathering earlier today, and when the subject of the VP choices came up, most of them lauded the selection of Palin by McCain and think that she is a brilliant choice. The discussion then went into how Obama voted for a certain abortion measures while a state senator in Illinois, and how he wants to take away people's guns, wants to prevent drilling for "our oil", and other various paranoia-based accusations. Meanwhile, people like my own mother, absolutely love Sarah Palin because she is, among other things, staunchly Pro-Life. You'd be amazed how many people are incredibly stubborn about the abortion issue in the US, to the point at which they will simply not vote for someone who is Pro-Choice, even if said candidate agrees with them on every other conceivable issue. They would much rather vote for a person who is far less in line with their political views overall, but is Pro-Life. That's how polarizing an issue it is for the religious conservative base. Despite the nearly impossibility that Roe vs. Wade will ever be overturned as the years of legal precedent continue to stack up, it remains such a focal point for that part of the electorate that it will completely dominate their mindset as they case votes in any election cycle.


I don't know if that verbose explanation helps or not to give some insight into evangelical, conservative middle America, but I can tell you from what I see every day living in middle America... it exists. It makes me sick to my stomach at times, not because I'm necessarily on the liberal side of the spectrum, but simply because I try to keep an open mind. It's incredibly difficult to reason with anyone who's priorities are based less on practicality and pragmatism and more so on emotional responses that have been ingrained over years of exposure to a singularly limited viewpoint.


Like it or not, the religious right has a lot of political clout in the US, and though I personally hope it does not come to pass, they may yet again decide who will sit in the White House.

[Rutabaga]

The one thing I'd add to that list, Fig, is gay rights. It really is the 3 G's that energize that base...gays, guns, and God. It's really so sad that decisions that have such far-reaching effects are based on such emotional and private issues, to the detriment of everything else. And I say that as a devout regular church-going Catholic.

And speaking of stealing elections, that's the other thing that truly brings terror to my heart. After the GOP stole Florida (and Bush was appointed by the Supreme Court) in 2000 and further electronic voting machine tampering, particularly in Ohio, clinched it in 2004, I am absolutely convinced that the same thing will happen this fall. Those electronic voting machines are so easily hacked, it's mind-boggling. There are definitely times when using ancient devices such as pencils and paper are much more desirable and effective.

[Cat X]

A McCain victory would not surprise me at all, given that his VP choice has begun to energize the same conservative base that allowed Bush to win two straight elections (as Jedieb mentioned). If McCain panders the right a bit more, he'll draw them out in enough numbers to steal the election in the same manner that Bush did... especially if Obama's supporters back down on their intensity towards this election in any way.


As sad as it may be, most evangelical conservatives have their political priorities set up as something like this:

1) Abortion
2) Fire Arms Rights
3) Creationism/Christianity in public schools
4) Energy policies that keep the status quo (ie. drill more oil, deny climate change)
5) Everything else, including economics, national security, foreign policy.


As completed screwed up as those priorities may seem to most independents, liberals and most of the rest of the world, it is the reality that exists in the United States today. I know this first hand... a good portion of my own family is very conservative, and that list pretty much fits them like a glove. I was at family gathering earlier today, and when the subject of the VP choices came up, most of them lauded the selection of Palin by McCain and think that she is a brilliant choice. The discussion then went into how Obama voted for a certain abortion measures while a state senator in Illinois, and how he wants to take away people's guns, wants to prevent drilling for "our oil", and other various paranoia-based accusations. Meanwhile, people like my own mother, absolutely love Sarah Palin because she is, among other things, staunchly Pro-Life. You'd be amazed how many people are incredibly stubborn about the abortion issue in the US, to the point at which they will simply not vote for someone who is Pro-Choice, even if said candidate agrees with them on every other conceivable issue. They would much rather vote for a person who is far less in line with their political views overall, but is Pro-Life. That's how polarizing an issue it is for the religious conservative base. Despite the nearly impossibility that Roe vs. Wade will ever be overturned as the years of legal precedent continue to stack up, it remains such a focal point for that part of the electorate that it will completely dominate their mindset as they case votes in any election cycle.


I don't know if that verbose explanation helps or not to give some insight into evangelical, conservative middle America, but I can tell you from what I see every day living in middle America... it exists. It makes me sick to my stomach at times, not because I'm necessarily on the liberal side of the spectrum, but simply because I try to keep an open mind. It's incredibly difficult to reason with anyone who's priorities are based less on practicality and pragmatism and more so on emotional responses that have been ingrained over years of exposure to a singularly limited viewpoint.


Like it or not, the religious right has a lot of political clout in the US, and though I personally hope it does not come to pass, they may yet again decide who will sit in the White House.


I'll only disagree with you in only one respect - she's a terrible choice. Not because she got the Evangelicals crowing, but because she was a panic pick and was not vettted. This just spells big problems that will hit McCain unexpectantly. The fact is it seems the Obama campaign knows more about her than her running partner does!

But now to my real point and more of a rant in reality.

In a lot of things, I am quite conservative and I have never been afraid to state my Christian beliefs here. I agree with a fair bit of the Religious Right's stances. But I've realised that this is a terrible thing to base your vote on. I supported Bust in 2000 as I thought he would be a great way to bring Christian values to the Oval Office. And his lack of experience I waved away in that he could call on his Father's cabinet.

My Lord, what a mistake!

And frankly since then I've had my eyes opened and realised that similar politicians in Australia who base their campaign on religious topics are every bit as useless in good governance and reacting in a truly Christian manner to the problems that governments get. In fact this caused a crisis of my own faith in that what I saw was simple pandering to the Religious Right. We have our own problems with this crowd and the more you look, the worse it gets. In fact Palin is in the same denomination (Assemblies of God0 as a lot of the Right wing zealots here. And let me tell you, the Southern Baptists should realise that AOG has some VERY odd beliefs that simply dont tee up with what a Baptist believes.

I'm presently at a Baptist myself but I've been in the Charismatic side. I believe a lto of it myself - but there is no way I would EVER vote for one. They just do not belong in government and the proof is how each and every one of them who does go into politics does a lousy job.

Christians should wake up and realise that Christians belong in helping people and telling others of the gift of Jesus, not being politics. They should realise that Christian politics is a sham and you get George W Bush - frankly anyoen who thinks he's done a good job needs to fracking a clip around the head. And with Palin, you will get exactly the same.

On a personal note the crisis of faith lasted a while, I was so disillusioned. I even denied Jesus in the end before the hell of 2005. And I thought a Christian woman would be a good thing but no, I ended up divorced when she slept with someone else. These days I still struggle.

So now, there is no way I will deny Christ and there is no way I will deny what I believe. But I will tell anyone I can that any person who professes hard right Christianity should be avoided as the hypocrite they are. Jesus was a Left wing liberal. And the atheist I am dating is honest with me and I with her. That's rather important when you get betrayed. Plus the fact my church pretty much made me persona non grata all because I was a divorced man still rankles. Odd the Baptist church has no issue with me being divorced..... AOG would not be this welcoming!

So yes I know all about what you say and I agree with you on that. it also just makes me ill how Christians are yet again become pawns and will be lied and betrayed yet again and yet they just vote yet again for the right wing.

I swear, we really are such a bunch of idiots. When the hell are Christians goign to wake up and realise what a terrible ride the right has been taking us on??????

Obama I think gets it tho. I hope other Christians can see how much he actually does get it and while he is a fellow believer, he is not using his faith as a draw, but instead using policy and callign to us not with Religious rallying cries that will most likey just be another betrayal, but with telling us what is really wrong and how he thinks it needs to be fixed. I just hope as a group Christian finally get it before they make another terrible mistake. The Republicans do NOT give a damn about Christians. They only care when we can be lead by the nose and hoodwinked. As Obama said.. ENOUGH! It's time to stop being attached to the right and realise we are as a collective group going in the wrong direction.

And the fact this unvetted right wing Palin has been thrown at Christians as a blatant pander and most are blindly taking the bait...... I'm not holding my breath. What does God need to do to make them work out how bad this really is....??????

This really makes me angry how the beliefs I have have been hijacked by these low bastards on a politcal level. But what can be done when you have this outragoues pander that works with far too many people who just dont think the issues through??

I suppose, pray and hope the Lord hears and will open their eyes and ears :(

[Rutabaga]

Absolutely beautiful post. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

You are so, so right when you say that Jesus is a left-wing liberal. I have a magnet hanging on my refrigerator that says, "Get real, like Jesus would ever own a gun and vote Republican!" As I said in an earlier post, I am a devout regular church-going Catholic. (Although I don't agree 100% with all Catholic church views; for instance, I'm staunchly pro-choice and believe that overturning Roe vs. Wade will spell doom). I am so resentful sometimes that the far right evangelicals give people like me such a bad, bad name. And I think it's so sad that so many "Christian" politicians claim to believe in God, or in George Bush's case, claim to have been chosen by God and receive daily directions whispered in his ear. But then they don't heed or follow Jesus's words AT ALL. If they did, they would remember that "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be children of God." If they heeded the words of all of the Sermon on the Mount (which is my favorite Bible passage), what a better and more beautiful world this would be.

Despite my own belief in God, I think that voting for a political candidate based purely on his or her religious views is insanity. There is a separation of church and state in this country for very good reason, and despite so many claims of people on the right, this country was NOT formed as a purely Christian nation. (And it was also NOT formed in part to wipe out Islam, as that tool Rod Parsley claimed, much to my amusement and horror.) The country cannot promote one religion over others, because it excludes so many other of its fine citizens.

The question sometimes comes up if an atheist could ever win political office in this country. And you know what? I could EASILY vote for an atheist, as long as I felt that that candidate was a good human being who treated everyone with kindness and respect and would do good things for the country. The sad thing is, though, I don't see it ever happening in my lifetime. I mean, people freaked out enough over Romney being a Mormon, and you still have a percentage of people in this country who are convinced that Obama is a Muslim and that that automatically excludes him from being able to hold office.

Political offices and religion are way too closely intertwined, and this country--and the world--wouid be so much better off if that changed.

[Figrin D'an]

In somewhat unrelated news, Obama finally responded to the SEAs "Science Debate 2008" questionnaire. His answers can be found <A HREF="http://sharp.sefora.org/people/presidential-candidates/barack-obama-presidential-candidate/">here</A>.


This gets him a few more brownies points with me for at least responding. As much as I would loved for this debate to have actually happened back in the nomination races for each party, at least he eventually answered the questionnaire. McCain has yet to respond.

It's a good read if you want some clarification on Obama's polices towards various science-related issues.

[Jedieb]

This morning Palin announced that her 17 year old daughter is pregnant. This was done in part to squash the rumors that were coming up that she was actually the grandmother of her infant son, rumors that even we touched on. The McCain camp says they knew of the pregnancy and McCain felt it did not disqualify her from the VP spot. Palin says her daughter and the father will be getting married. This is part of the national (hell, even global) media glare that Palin has little experience with. Troopergate, her constiuents in Wasilla, her early support for the Bridge to Nowhere, they're all going to be covered in depth now. As the news turns away from Gustav and then the convention they're going to descend on her like a pack of wolves. It really is anyone's guess how she's going to hold up.

Even though I thought the rumors of her covering for her daughter's pregnancy were ludicrous, I was still stunned by what I read about her behavior the day her son was born. People are going to look into this. Taking 8 hour flights after your water has broken when you're 44 and in a high risk pregnancy defies logic. I posed the situation to my wife and she was incredulous. "You're not allowed to fly that late in your pregnancy!" Granted, my wife has a fear of flying that borders on the irrational, but to fly after your water has broken from Texas to Alaska in this kind of pregnancy seems reckless and dangerous to me. I have to believe that this story is going to get covered before the campaign is over.

Faith & Politics
Fig, Cat, & Rutabaga have all spoken eloquently about faith. While the Republicans have owned evangelicals for the past few years, I do believe that Obama is the first Democrat since perhaps Carter that actually feels comfortable discussion religion and addressing issues that are important to Christians. There's a bit of a backlash amongst Christians who supported Bush. Many now believe that confronting poverty and the environment are just as important as fighting social issues like abortion and gay marriage. Obama should continue to reach out to these Christian voters. He shouldn't pander to them, but he should stress to them that being a Christian can mean that your first priorities can be caring for the poor and the environment. I've seen him discuss faith in politics and he seems better suited to do it than any other Democrat I've seen campaign for the presidency except Carter. My memories of his race are very dim, but I remember that he was always seen as a religious southerner.

McCain is trying to change the agenda of the convention to one of service and patriotism, and limiting some of the partisan attacks. We'll see how that goes. The only thing going on today is procedural stuff. Tomorrow we'll start to see some speeches and we'll see what tone this convention is actually going to take. McCain is even considering making his acceptance speech from Louisiana. We'll see how that's received.

[Jaime Tomahawk]

This morning Palin announced that her 17 year old daughter is pregnant. This was done in part to squash the rumors that were coming up that she was actually the grandmother of her infant son, rumors that even we touched on. The McCain camp says they knew of the pregnancy and McCain felt it did not disqualify her from the VP spot. Palin says her daughter and the father will be getting married. This is part of the national (hell, even global) media glare that Palin has little experience with. Troopergate, her constiuents in Wasilla, her early support for the Bridge to Nowhere, they're all going to be covered in depth now. As the news turns away from Gustav and then the convention they're going to descend on her like a pack of wolves. It really is anyone's guess how she's going to hold up.

What this does is just highlight that McCain absolutely did not vet Palin at all. His judgment can be seriously called into question and I expect Obama to hammer the hell out of him about this poor judgment.

It's only been 72 hours and we have an utter bucketload of crap on Palin and now her daughter? If you were a ordinary person it should matter if her daughter gets knocked up. But when you are running on the kind of values platform Palin is.... ooooooooh dear. It will not go down well.

It shouldnt matter I add. But it will. This just highlights the points about religous values based voting and how it's not a good idea - teenagers screw. Big deal. Some end up knocked up. Big Deal. It should not matter when there's much bigger things to vote about. But no, it will matter. No one should base their vote on a teenager's mistake, but they will.



Even though I thought the rumors of her covering for her daughter's pregnancy were ludicrous, I was still stunned by what I read about her behavior the day her son was born. People are going to look into this. Taking 8 hour flights after your water has broken when you're 44 and in a high risk pregnancy defies logic. I posed the situation to my wife and she was incredulous. "You're not allowed to fly that late in your pregnancy!" Granted, my wife has a fear of flying that borders on the irrational, but to fly after your water has broken from Texas to Alaska in this kind of pregnancy seems reckless and dangerous to me. I have to believe that this story is going to get covered before the campaign is over.


It will. It goes to the argument about judgment and when I read that, I was equally shocked. What utterly lousy judgment to endanger yourself AND your unborn kid like that. If your judgment is that bad, you should not be allowed near government



Faith & Politics
Fig, Cat, & Rutabaga have all spoken eloquently about faith. While the Republicans have owned evangelicals for the past few years, I do believe that Obama is the first Democrat since perhaps Carter that actually feels comfortable discussion religion and addressing issues that are important to Christians. There's a bit of a backlash amongst Christians who supported Bush. Many now believe that confronting poverty and the environment are just as important as fighting social issues like abortion and gay marriage. Obama should continue to reach out to these Christian voters. He shouldn't pander to them, but he should stress to them that being a Christian can mean that your first priorities can be caring for the poor and the environment. I've seen him discuss faith in politics and he seems better suited to do it than any other Democrat I've seen campaign for the presidency except Carter. My memories of his race are very dim, but I remember that he was always seen as a religious southerner.

McCain is trying to change the agenda of the convention to one of service and patriotism, and limiting some of the partisan attacks. We'll see how that goes. The only thing going on today is procedural stuff. Tomorrow we'll start to see some speeches and we'll see what tone this convention is actually going to take. McCain is even considering making his acceptance speech from Louisiana. We'll see how that's received.

"The conservative party nominated a man who cheated on his wife in order to marry a millionaire heiress more than 10 years younger than him, while his paleoconservative VP who runs on a family values, abstinence-only education policy has a daughter who got knocked up.

Compare this to the supposed LIBERAL candidates: a Presidential candidate with a stable marriage to a strong woman with two kids, and a VP candidate who commuted 3 hours per day to and from home to be with his kids after their mom and sister were killed in a car accident."

Anyone who votes on values should probably read the above and think what it really means.

[Rutabaga]

"The conservative party nominated a man who cheated on his wife in order to marry a millionaire heiress more than 10 years younger than him, while his paleoconservative VP who runs on a family values, abstinence-only education policy has a daughter who got knocked up.

Compare this to the supposed LIBERAL candidates: a Presidential candidate with a stable marriage to a strong woman with two kids, and a VP candidate who commuted 3 hours per day to and from home to be with his kids after their mom and sister were killed in a car accident."

Anyone who votes on values should probably read the above and think what it really means.

That is nothing short of brilliant, and oh so true. The sad news is that most of those so-called "values voters" won't listen to that, and won't acknowledge it.

And speaking of the "values voters" label, I really detest the way the media uses it. They only seem to use it in reference to conservative voters, so the implication is that the rest of us who vote for non-conservative candidates or platforms have no values at all. :shakefist

[Daiquiri]

You cant hold her pregnant daughter against her; thats ludicrous. (sp?)

[Jaime Tomahawk]

It's a real pity, aint it? There's a growing liberal base of Christian voters and all we hear about is the right wing wingnuts. All the focus on them.

Well, what about US?

And just to divert for a second, Palin's VP nomination continues to explode in McCain's face.

1) She is apparently part of a Alaskan Successionist party. That could be big news.
2) But one I think should be really followed is her ties to Ted Stevens, the corrupt "Bridge to Nowhere" Senator under heavy investigation. She was apparently the chair of his 527 organisation. Now this really is potentially ugly - attaching Palin to a corrupt Senator is very bad news.

Let alone the other scandals.

What, did McCain nominate her as a joke? How the hell half a dozen scandals be found so fast if they did the most basic of vetting? Serious lack of judgment here by McCain. Oh most mind bogging to me was that Palin's time as mayor? That place was literally a trailer park.......!!!!!!!!!! What the hell??? They are claiming that to be experience????

I'm sorry, but come on. This cant be real.

[Jaime Tomahawk]

You cant hold her pregnant daughter against her; thats ludicrous. (sp?)

Sane people arent. I made that point already. The kid made a mistake, big deal. So do we all. It's just life.

But when your platform is is about abstinence-only education policy with a very hard stance against abortion that panders to evangelicals...... that's in fact quite a problem for her as values based voters wont like that. Yes it's dumb. But some evangelicals really will hold it against Palin.

As an aside it shows the inherent problems of unwanted and unexpected teen pregnancy an abstience only policy has. Teenagers screw. We should deal with sex education in that light, not think if we tell teenagers to just no do it they wont and everythign will be fine. That's just dumb. The policy should be complete and not just hoping teenagers wont bump naughty bits

[Yog]

So apparently, before she was a Mayor, she was member of Alaska Independence Party (http://www.akip.org/introduction.html), a group who aims to have Alaska secede from the Union..?

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/9/1/16210/07141/376/582375

As someone commented, maybe this is part of her foreign policy experience. As a governor of Alaska she is not only close to Russia, but has to deal extensively with the United States... :lol

[Csephion Draxus]

You cant hold her pregnant daughter against her; thats ludicrous. (sp?)

Sure you can. She's a politician who chose to run on cheap abstinence-only platforms at her peril. Her lack of good parenting wouldn't be political if not for her choice to play dirty pool in the first place.


So apparently, before she was a Mayor, she was member of Alaska Independence Party (http://www.akip.org/introduction.html), a group who aims to have Alaska secede from the Union..?

Interestingly, this could be dire. I remember recently re-registering to vote since I live in another county now, and specifically remember that a part of voter registration was to sign under oath that you disavow membership to any organizations that advocate violence, secession, or overthrow from the US government.

[Morgan Evanar]

You cant hold her pregnant daughter against her; thats ludicrous. (sp?)Why not? It's not fair? (Devil's advocate)

[Cat X]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Oh this is just too delicious to be true! No WAY she was vetted properly to let this one go!

What an unmitigated disaster is unfolding for McCain. And what an amazing no win situation - keep her and bury his chances, or choose a new VP and have his campaign explode in a huge trainwreck anyway.

Democrat supporters must be drooling now.


Interestingly, this could be dire. I remember recently re-registering to vote since I live in another county now, and specifically remember that a part of voter registration was to sign under oath that you disavow membership to any organizations that advocate violence, secession, or overthrow from the US government.

Errr..... wow. Really?

I think I now understand just how bad this is going to be for Palin. Holy crap.

[Jedieb]

You cant hold her pregnant daughter against her; thats ludicrous. (sp?)

I agree, it shouldn't be held against her. What it should preclude her from doing is ever seriously mentioning "abstinence ONLY" to replace comprehensive sex ed. And by comprehensive I mean that you have BOTH sides represented. As a father of two daughters I would welcome abstinence as PART of their sex ed. But I also want contraception on the table. It's ridiculous to think that just by focusing on abstinence and eliminating lessons on contraception that you'll stop them from having sex. That's one of the reasons that this pregnancy is a LEGITIMATE issue for the press to cover. Because of her staunch pro life views and views on sex education, her daughter's pregnancy is now an issue. I don't think she should be vilified for it, or her daughter attacked, but I'd like to know if it's changed her views on sex education now.

[Jedieb]

One more quick observation, Jindal is doing a fine job of managing the Gustav crisis. He's just as much a social conservative as Palin. Can you imagine the media focus that would have been on him this week if he'd been both leading his state through this storm AND accepting the nomination for VP? Think there's any buyer's remorse in certain RNC circles?

[Csephion Draxus]

Errr..... wow. Really?

I think I now understand just how bad this is going to be for Palin. Holy crap.

Somebody who views the second as a poison pill against tyrannical indulgences in the government pays close attention to fine print like this ;)

On the record, I am not a member of any such organization ;)

[Csephion Draxus]

One more quick observation, Jindal is doing a fine job of managing the Gustav crisis. He's just as much a social conservative as Palin. Can you imagine the media focus that would have been on him this week if he'd been both leading his state through this storm AND accepting the nomination for VP? Think there's any buyer's remorse in certain RNC circles?

Jindal is interesting because he's a GOP superstar with almost no dirt on him. I mean there's a little out there, but it's somewhat trifling by comparison. I think that's partly the reason why he passed on McCain. Hitching a ride onto that albatross would bode terribly for his career.

He could be a power hitter in 2012 though. Definitely will be interesting to watch him.

[Cat X]

Jindal is interesting because he's a GOP superstar with almost no dirt on him. I mean there's a little out there, but it's somewhat trifling by comparison. I think that's partly the reason why he passed on McCain. Hitching a ride onto that albatross would bode terribly for his career.

He could be a power hitter in 2012 though. Definitely will be interesting to watch him.

Seems to be the case a few GOP people refused to be vetted so as to not be hitched to the looming GOP trainwreck.

I love the thought of the GOP crash and burn, but this is just beyond anything I could have imagined in hilarity.

[Rutabaga]

The strangest thing I know of on Bobby Jindal that could be a hot potato is the exorcism he did on his girlfriend years ago to rid her of evil spirits. :lol

I gotta tell ya, I rarely tune into Fox News (or as I like to call it, Faux Noise), but I just had to stop and see what good ol' blowhard Bill O'Reilly was screaming about tonight. He was there with a couple of panelists just completely melting down over the Daily Kos post re: Sarah Palin allegedly faking her pregnancy. I think it's right that people be upset with the person at Daily Kos who posted that--I was very startled by it myself because it was presenting it as fact--but what made me laugh so hard about the discussion was the holier than thou attitude. They were bemoaning the mean and destructive behavior of people on left-wing blogs like it was such an abomination...well, Mr. O'Reilly and friends, I have news for you. Checked any right-wing blogs lately? Checked any conservative radio hosts lately? Don't sit there and point fingers at progressives before checking on your own house now, y'hear. :shakefist

[Yog]

Here is you chance to help McCain vetting Sarah Palin:

http://content.vetpalin.com/index.html

I've been clicking the vet button for a while now. It is pretty entertaining.

[Csephion Draxus]

The strangest thing I know of on Bobby Jindal that could be a hot potato is the exorcism he did on his girlfriend years ago to rid her of evil spirits. :lol

I gotta tell ya, I rarely tune into Fox News (or as I like to call it, Faux Noise), but I just had to stop and see what good ol' blowhard Bill O'Reilly was screaming about tonight. He was there with a couple of panelists just completely melting down over the Daily Kos post re: Sarah Palin allegedly faking her pregnancy. I think it's right that people be upset with the person at Daily Kos who posted that--I was very startled by it myself because it was presenting it as fact--but what made me laugh so hard about the discussion was the holier than thou attitude. They were bemoaning the mean and destructive behavior of people on left-wing blogs like it was such an abomination...well, Mr. O'Reilly and friends, I have news for you. Checked any right-wing blogs lately? Checked any conservative radio hosts lately? Don't sit there and point fingers at progressives before checking on your own house now, y'hear. :shakefist

I think I speak on bitpartisan terms when I suggest a bill that will round up the blogosphere and put them into a series of camps...

...comfortable, well-furnished camps with every amenity except internet access, that is!

[Cat X]

The strangest thing I know of on Bobby Jindal that could be a hot potato is the exorcism he did on his girlfriend years ago to rid her of evil spirits. :lol

No way can that one be real... is there evidence to back that one up?

[Rutabaga]

The strangest thing I know of on Bobby Jindal that could be a hot potato is the exorcism he did on his girlfriend years ago to rid her of evil spirits. :lol

No way can that one be real... is there evidence to back that one up?

Ask, and ye shall receive. :angel

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/06/bobby_jindals_dance_with_the_d.php

[Sanis Prent]

The strangest thing I know of on Bobby Jindal that could be a hot potato is the exorcism he did on his girlfriend years ago to rid her of evil spirits. :lol

No way can that one be real... is there evidence to back that one up?

Just a hop skip and jump on the google lilly pad:

The Exorcist (http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/06/bobby_jindals_dance_with_the_d.php)

To be fair, this really shouldn't be presented as an issue. As nuts as some far-right catholic practices might seem to others, this really has nothing to do with us. I mean Palin's denomination speaks in tongues, but why even make this an issue either?

[Cat X]

The strangest thing I know of on Bobby Jindal that could be a hot potato is the exorcism he did on his girlfriend years ago to rid her of evil spirits. :lol

No way can that one be real... is there evidence to back that one up?

Ask, and ye shall receive. :angel

http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/06/bobby_jindals_dance_with_the_d.php

I..... ummmm......

WHAT?????

After seeing the Palin meltdown, that's just unbelieveable. It's just not possible to see so much dirt on a party come to light so fast....?

[Yog]

More details on the AIP membership, which is starting to get traction on the Internet and about to blow up in the face of McCain:

http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/09/the_alaska_independence_party.php

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/09/members-of-frin.html
(this is currently the Top Story of ABC frontpage)


Lynette Clark, the chairman of the AIP, tells ABC News that Palin and her husband Todd were members in 1994, even attending the 1994 statewide convention in Wasilla. Clark was AIP secretary at the time.

--

She doesn't know what Palin's position was.

"It never came up in conversation," Clark recalls. "But when she joined the party, our platform was right under her nose."

Clark says that Palin left the party and became a Republican in 1996, when she first ran for mayor of Wasilla.


So far, the McCain camp has declined to comment. They are probably contemplating how to spin this.
http://www.jedreport.com/2008/09/mccain-camp-mum-on-palins-role.html

Also, some of the stuff on that AIP web site is comedy gold:

"I'm an Alaskan, not an American. I've got no use for America or her damned institutions."
Joe Vogler

--

The Alaskan Independence Party's goal is the vote we were entitled to in 1958, one choice from among the following four alternatives:
1) Remain a Territory.
2) Become a separate and Independent Nation.
3) Accept Commonwealth status.
4) Become a State.

[Yog]

ahahahaha! CNN raking McCain campaign spokesman Tucker Bounds over the coals:
http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2008/09/01/brown.tucker.bounds.interview.cnn

[Figrin D'an]

ahahahaha! CNN raking McCain campaign spokesman Tucker Bounds over the coals:
http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2008/09/01/brown.tucker.bounds.interview.cnn


That clip was rather amusing. "Commander of the National Guard of Alaska" qualifies as foreign policy experience, huh?


I'm beginning to agree with a comment that Rutabaga made earlier in the thread... choosing Palin is John McCain's "Harriet Miers moment." This is quickly snowballing out of any sort of spin control that his campaign will be able to manage. The problem is... I don't think this can be solved like Bush solved the Miers problem. Getting rid of Palin at this point could be an even bigger media disaster than sticking with her.

The McCain campaign needs to hope she has a spectacular debate against Biden, or this will be close to an unmitigated disaster.

[Yog]

That clip was rather amusing. "Commander of the National Guard of Alaska" qualifies as foreign policy experience, huh?
Yeah, as far as I am concerned, she got zero foreign policy experience. I mean, this is one who got her US passport literary 1 year ago. And when asked about what she thought about War in Iraq and the surge, she had no opinion on the matter because she "had not focused on Iraq (http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2008/08/29/palin_iraq/index.html)". An odd statement considering she got a son in the military.

[Cat X]

The McCain campaign needs to hope she has a spectacular debate against Biden, or this will be close to an unmitigated disaster.

With the incredible meltdown we are seeing today, I suspect it's more likely she'll be Biden roadkill.

Firstly she needs to make the debates. I'm wonderign if she'll even get the nomination at all.

EDIT : Any bets on if Palin did porno or has nude pitures floating about? That's about the only way this could get worse for McCain

[Rutabaga]

ahahahaha! CNN raking McCain campaign spokesman Tucker Bounds over the coals:
http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2008/09/01/brown.tucker.bounds.interview.cnn

I saw that and was floored, it's amazing to see someone from the corporate media actually finally calling the McCain campaign on this and not letting them try to doublespeak their way out of it.

Huzzah!

[Cat X]

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/9/1/19590/83814/123/582628

Oh My Lord. Hookers and Blow????? Who...... thought THAT was a good idea???

I....... okay damnit I'm lost for words.

[Yog]

^^ :lol


I saw that and was floored, it's amazing to see someone from the corporate media actually finally calling the McCain campaign on this and not letting them try to doublespeak their way out of it.

Huzzah!
This is pretty good too.. :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c12DfJ_J2A


Looks like Washington Post is having a laugh about this mess as well:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/01/AR2008090101715.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

Gingrich's point about Palin being commander in chief of the Alaska National Guard has been echoed throughout the GOP. In fact, even Cindy McCain pointed out -- rightly enough -- that Alaska is across the Bering Strait from Russia and so Palin, by deduction, has been on the front lines of the Cold War . . . had it not ended in 1989.

Still, you have to admit that in all that time, especially since Palin became governor about two years ago, no Russian invasion force has come across the strait, maybe because she was in charge of the Guard, maybe because she herself is a hunter and an athlete. The record is unclear because no high-ranking Russian appeared on any of the weekend talk shows to say how they had considered an invasion of Alaska and then backed off when Sarah Palin became commander in chief of the Alaska National Guard. Who could blame them?

[Csephion Draxus]

Looks like Washington Post is having a laugh about this mess as well:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/01/AR2008090101715.html?hpid=opinionsbox1


The funnier part of this article is where they equate McCain's choice of Palin to that of Caligula's choice of his horse.

"Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyuuuuumn!"

[Jaime Tomahawk]

Looks like Washington Post is having a laugh about this mess as well:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/01/AR2008090101715.html?hpid=opinionsbox1


The funnier part of this article is where they equate McCain's choice of Palin to that of Caligula's choice of his horse.

"Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyuuuuumn!"

That was utterly priceless!

It's not the scandals that is the problem now tho for McCain. It's the fact Palin is becoming a running joke. People are laughing at her and just wont take her seriously, no matter how good she may be. And they just wont listen to the McCain campaign, which is the real danger - once the public switch off, they will not reengage and will only listen to Obama. No matter how many religious Right come out to vote, they will be concentrated in states McCain wont lose anyway, leaving Independants and Republicans disgusted by the blatant pandering to vote Democrat. That equals a electoral defeat, no two ways about it.

The most critical time for any politican is when they get to define themselves on a national stage. If the defining works, all will be good. But right now Palin is being defined very VERY negatively. Another day or two of this, there will be no recovery.

(And if I read this right, the MSM are going to draw this out as there is sooooo much to get her on)

I wonder if Hillary will be speaking soon on Palin? That could be worth waiting for.

[Jaime Tomahawk]

This has been an incredibly entertaining day. Lets see what tomorrow brings in McCain / Palin screwups! Night all!

[Yog]

According to The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Tuesday, Barack Obama gets 48% of the vote and John McCain 43%. If you include "leaners", it's 51%/45% in favor of Obama. This is apparently the first time Obama reached 50% in either of the daily tracking polls, a 3% swing since yesterday.

In Gallup, Obama also makes 50% for the first time, an 8% lead:
http://www.gallup.com/poll/109960/Gallup-Daily-Obama-Hits-50-First-Time.aspx

The poll took place August 30-31. Palin was announced the 29th, so both days of polling reflect the reaction of Palin as VP nominee. Clinton supporters are also solidifying support behind Obama, going from 70% to 81%, and the percent of Clinton voters certain to vote for Obama jumped from 47% to 65%.

Also, Diageo/Hotline poll:
Obama 48, McCain 39 (previous result 44-40)

Summary (all fresh numbers, like a day old at most)
ARG: Obama (D) 49%, McCain (R) 43%
Gallup: Obama (D) 50%, McCain (R) 42%
Rasmussen: Obama (D) 51%, McCain (R) 45%
Hotline: Obama (D) 48%, McCain (R) 39%
USA Today: Obama (D) 50%, McCain (R) 43%
CBS: Obama (D) 48%, McCain (R) 40%

[Yog]

Ladies and Gentlemen! I present to you Wasilla City Hall. EXECUTIVE EXPERIENCE!!!

http://www.mneh.org/pics/funny/wasilla-city-hall.jpg

As James Carville (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oxZYoVdV7A) so eloquently put it, "Looks like a bake shop in South Louisiana!" :lol


‘Ludicrous’ to Say Palin Has Less Experience Than Obama, McCain Says (http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=34921).

Oh, really? Year-by-year break down of Palin & Obama resumes (http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/9/2/1613/27485/447/581295).

[Jedieb]

Obama's RCP average has ticked up past +6 today. The last few of these polls have taken the weekend and yesterday's Gustav coverage into account. I think the Republicans are breathing a sigh of relief that the damage from Gustav, at least early on, appears to be far less than Katrina. The America First convention that McCain asked for may soon be forgotten with another couple of bad polls. They'll have to start attacking by Wed. & Thurs. And there's something I can't wait to see, the ratings for McCain's acceptance speech. The opening night of the NFL certainly can't help McCain any. He's going up against Obama's 38 million viewers. I wonder if Republicans will be jumping out of windows if he falls significantly short of that. It'll be even better to see what kind of "celebrity" spin they try to put on it.

AIP
I still haven't seen any MSM coverage of Pallin's AIP membership. If I were McCain I'd want it over sooner than later. With his luck it may start to break the night of her speech and then spill over into his big Thursday night.

[Yog]

^^ going head to head with NFL opening can't end well. He won't be pulling any 85,000 crowd as Obama did either.

New York Times wrote an interesting article about how McCain made his choice and the almost non existent vetting process:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/02/us/politics/02vetting.html


Up until midweek last week, some 48 to 72 hours before Mr. McCain introduced Ms. Palin at a Friday rally in Dayton, Ohio, Mr. McCain was still holding out the hope that he could choose a good friend, Senator Joseph I. Lieberman, independent of Connecticut, a Republican close to the campaign said. Mr. McCain had also been interested in another favorite, former Gov. Tom Ridge of Pennsylvania.

But both men favor abortion rights, anathema to the Christian conservatives who make up a crucial base of the Republican Party. As word leaked out that Mr. McCain was seriously considering the men, the campaign was bombarded by outrage from influential conservatives who predicted an explosive floor fight at the convention and vowed rejection of Mr. Ridge or Mr. Lieberman by the delegates.

Perhaps more important, several Republicans said, Mr. McCain was getting advice that if he did not do something to shake up the race, his campaign would be stuck on a potentially losing trajectory.

With time running out — and as Mr. McCain discarded two safer choices, Gov. Tim Pawlenty of Minnesota and former Gov. Mitt Romney of Massachusetts, as too predictable — he turned to Ms. Palin. He had his first face-to-face interview with her on Thursday and offered her the job moments later. Advisers to Mr. Pawlenty and another of the finalists on Mr. McCain’s list described an intensive vetting process for those candidates that lasted one to two months.

“They didn’t seriously consider her until four or five days from the time she was picked, before she was asked, maybe the Thursday or Friday before,” said a Republican close to the campaign. “This was really kind of rushed at the end, because John didn’t get what he wanted. He wanted to do Joe or Ridge.”

In the final stages, two Republicans familiar with the process said, Mr. McCain’s campaign manager, Rick Davis, emerged as a key advocate for Ms. Palin.

...

People familiar with the process said Ms. Palin had responded to a standard form with more than 70 questions. Although The Washington Post quoted advisers to Mr. McCain on Sunday as saying Ms. Palin had been subjected to an F.B.I. background check, an F.B.I. official said Monday the bureau did not vet potential candidates and had not known of her selection until it was made public.

...

In Alaska, several state leaders and local officials said they knew of no efforts by the McCain campaign to find out more information about Ms. Palin before the announcement of her selection, Although campaigns are typically discreet when they make inquiries into potential running mates, officials in Alaska said Monday they thought it was peculiar that no one in the state had the slightest hint that Ms. Palin might be under consideration.

“They didn’t speak to anyone in the Legislature, they didn’t speak to anyone in the business community,” said Lyda Green, the State Senate president, who lives in Wasilla, where Ms. Palin served as mayor.

I highlighted the most interesting parts in bold. More details in the linked article.

[Yog]

Father of Bristol Palin’s Baby: “I Don’t Want Kids” (http://www.usmagazine.com/news/new-levipalin-draft) :whaa



Edit - update on Trooper Gate:

Palin Investigation Stalled By McCain Campaign (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/02/palins-lawyer-stonewallin_n_123179.html)



Is the McCain campaign afraid of an 'October surprise' involving vice-presidential pick Gov. Sarah Palin of Alaska?

The Alaska state senator running an investigation of Gov. Palin says the McCain campaign is using stall tactics to prevent him from releasing his final report by Oct. 31, four days before the November election.

[Daiquiri]

I was holding out hope but its just getting worse by the minute.

As to her pregnant daughter, it cant be held against her, at least not by 'sane' people as Mark put it. As a parent I patiently explained and showed and told and stressed, etc, etc about things (imho) that I thought were not good for my children; while most of it was taken to heart, some of it was not and one of my beloved offspring has chosen on many occasions to learn about life the hard way. Her choice, not mine.

Morg, I didnt say anything about it being fair or unfair. It is what it is - two people who werent thinking about consequences and/or taking proper precautions.

[Daiquiri]

You cant hold her pregnant daughter against her; thats ludicrous. (sp?)

I agree, it shouldn't be held against her. What it should preclude her from doing is ever seriously mentioning "abstinence ONLY" to replace comprehensive sex ed. And by comprehensive I mean that you have BOTH sides represented. As a father of two daughters I would welcome abstinence as PART of their sex ed. But I also want contraception on the table. It's ridiculous to think that just by focusing on abstinence and eliminating lessons on contraception that you'll stop them from having sex. That's one of the reasons that this pregnancy is a LEGITIMATE issue for the press to cover. Because of her staunch pro life views and views on sex education, her daughter's pregnancy is now an issue. I don't think she should be vilified for it, or her daughter attacked, but I'd like to know if it's changed her views on sex education now.


While I agree with you as a parent on abstinence (I preached it myself!), I too believe its crazy on any parents part to believe that kids arent to 'do the deed'. I always told my girls that at ANY time they felt they were ready for that big step to come to me and I would get them on birth control. It wasnt what I wanted but I also didnt want them to make a mistake that they would have to live with the rest of thier lives.

As far as Palin goes, if she TRULY believes in abstinence then good for her and she should go ahead and keep that stance.

[Jaime Tomahawk]

While I agree with you as a parent on abstinence (I preached it myself!), I too believe its crazy on any parents part to believe that kids arent to 'do the deed'. I always told my girls that at ANY time they felt they were ready for that big step to come to me and I would get them on birth control. It wasnt what I wanted but I also didnt want them to make a mistake that they would have to live with the rest of thier lives.

As far as Palin goes, if she TRULY believes in abstinence then good for her and she should go ahead and keep that stance.

The issue is that she's not just a mother anymore. She is a VP candidate and her stance will flavor Govt policy. So what she thinks - more to point what she has taught and acted on - now become fodder. Unfortunatly that means a 17 year old is going to be dragged into a Presidental campaign and that sucks.

And to be honest, I have to wonder if the daughter is having the baby freely or was she pressured. That's a question I think needs answering. From something I read earlier, the father of the baby didn't want the child and is being pressured to marry.

We really dont need this type questions swirling around a VP. We should be arguing other things. But.... shotgun weddings and pressure on 17 year old for political expediency is revolting too.

What a complete farce. So.... anyone else have other real meat on Palin today?

[Jedieb]

The convention is just getting going. I honestly don't know if I have the chops to watch it. I'll try to tune in occasionally, but I just can't make it though Republican speeches. I'll just stick to reading the commentary and watching the poll numbers.

[Jaime Tomahawk]

Hey you know how Palin has this teenage daughter who's pregnant and all..

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/09/02/palin_slashed_funding_to_help.html?hpid=artslot

[Jedieb]

ahahahaha! CNN raking McCain campaign spokesman Tucker Bounds over the coals:
http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/politics/2008/09/01/brown.tucker.bounds.interview.cnn

Today, McCain canceled a previously scheduled interview with Larry King as payback for that interview. Take that CNN! And speaking of dodging the media, I've read that Palin has been dodging the media for almost 2 days now. She's canceled some campaign stops and speaking engagements. You can only imagine what's going on behind the scenes.

[Rutabaga]

Obama's RCP average has ticked up past +6 today. The last few of these polls have taken the weekend and yesterday's Gustav coverage into account. I think the Republicans are breathing a sigh of relief that the damage from Gustav, at least early on, appears to be far less than Katrina. The America First convention that McCain asked for may soon be forgotten with another couple of bad polls. They'll have to start attacking by Wed. & Thurs. And there's something I can't wait to see, the ratings for McCain's acceptance speech. The opening night of the NFL certainly can't help McCain any. He's going up against Obama's 38 million viewers. I wonder if Republicans will be jumping out of windows if he falls significantly short of that. It'll be even better to see what kind of "celebrity" spin they try to put on it.

AIP
I still haven't seen any MSM coverage of Pallin's AIP membership. If I were McCain I'd want it over sooner than later. With his luck it may start to break the night of her speech and then spill over into his big Thursday night.

I'm so looking forward to hearing about the ratings for McCain's speech. I certainly watched Obama's speech, but there's no way I'm watching McCain's. And not just because the Giants-Redskins game will be on at the same time :D. But yeah, I don't see McCain pulling in nearly as many viewers as Obama did. The McCain campaign will spin it every which way they can, but it will still be there staring them in the face.

McCain pulled out of an appearance on Larry King's show on CNN tonight because of the tongue-lashing Campbell Brown gave to his spokesperson yesterday. I love it :lol.

Now, for the one piece of information I just heard that actually disgusts me quite a bit...Bristol Palin's boyfriend is on his way to St. Paul from Alaska. No doubt he's going to be pushed into the whole "we're one big happy family" thing with the Palins and the McCains, like the photo spread that was done for People magazine late last week. (McCain looks so stiff and uncomfortable in the photos, yikes. It's like an family portrait of the Addams family.) I think that's just not right, if he's suddenly going to be up on stage with his pregnant girlfriend. Especially if they're all asking that this be kept a private matter. What should be happening is that Bristol should be going back home to Alaska to get her out of the spotlight.

[Jedieb]

Now, for the one piece of information I just heard that actually disgusts me quite a bit...Bristol Palin's boyfriend is on his way to St. Paul from Alaska. No doubt he's going to be pushed into the whole "we're one big happy family" thing with the Palins and the McCains, like the photo spread that was done for People magazine late last week. (McCain looks so stiff and uncomfortable in the photos, yikes. It's like an family portrait of the Addams family.) I think that's just not right, if he's suddenly going to be up on stage with his pregnant girlfriend. Especially if they're all asking that this be kept a private matter. What should be happening is that Bristol should be going back home to Alaska to get her out of the spotlight.

But he'll miss hockey practice and gym class!

And for those who say Palin has never tackled foreign policy issues, here's something to choke on! (But notice how she tackles government spending at the beginning of her commencement address.)

"I can do my part in doing things like working really, really hard to get a natural gas pipeline, a $30 billion dollar project that's going to create a lot of jobs for people in Alaska, and we're going to have a lot of energy flowing through here -- and pray about that also -- I think God's will has to be done in unifying people and companies to get that gas line built, so pray for that," she told them, "but I can do my job there, in developing our natural resources, and doing things like getting the roads paved, and making sure our troopers have their cop cars and their uniforms, their guns, and making sure our public schools are funded. But really, all that stuff doesn't do any good if the people of Alaska's heart isn't right with God."

Switching to the war in Iraq, Palin told the group of students that they should not only pray for men and women in the military but to make sure the leaders of this country are sending U.S. soldiers "out on a task that is from God. That's what we have to make sure that we're praying for, that there is a plan and that that plan is God's plan."

[Daiquiri]

..........we're so f***ed :cry

[Miranda Tarkin]

Is there a good place that I can see all the President and VP's stance on issues? I am in a bind because I honestly dislike both sides for various reasons.. more so McCain/Palin at this point. I want to be educated! :)

[Cat X]

Is there a good place that I can see all the President and VP's stance on issues? I am in a bind because I honestly dislike both sides for various reasons.. more so McCain/Palin at this point. I want to be educated! :)



For Obama -

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/

Very extensive database on the Obama campaign.

McCain -

http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/Issues/

Senator Joe Biden -

http://biden.senate.gov/issues/

For Palin is simply read this thread, it's literally what anyone knows. Sad but true! Oh and add hard core conservative religious values.

[Yog]

Unfortunately, the AIP controversy will likely not be the killing blow I first thought. According to Alaska Division of Elections official records, she has been member of GOP since 1982, and there is no trace of her involvment at AIP there. It would be difficult to proove any official connection, since AIP's paper records does not go back that far. This is despite that several named persons stated she was member at AIP.

It's still a murky deal though. For one thing, according to ADE records, her husband Todd Palinwas a member from 1995-2004 (http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/09/todd_palin_was_registered_memb.php). Also, Mark Chryson, chairman of the AIP from 1995 to 2002 tells ABC News that "Sarah Palin was at the convention in 1994. She was there. (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/09/another-aip-off.html)", despite McCain camp claiming otherwise. In addition to the video from early 2008, where she addresses the AIP as a Governor, saying Alaska should become "self sufficient" CNN also found a video of her adressing the AIP in 2006.

http://www.jedreport.com/2008/09/john-mccains-alaska-first-prob.html

Whatever the case, I doubt the last word is said on this matter.

[Yog]

Is there a good place that I can see all the President and VP's stance on issues? I am in a bind because I honestly dislike both sides for various reasons.. more so McCain/Palin at this point. I want to be educated! :)

For McCain, Obama and Biden, read the links Cat X posted.

About Sarah Palin, sadly, there is not a whole lot known about her beyond what is said in the Wikipedia Article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Palin) and in this thread. So far, she appears to have no position on a lot of the major issues, let alone experience. Most of her positions seem to be centred around extreme religious right core values, special interests, and the Alaska economy.

You might look up this story. Yes, I know it's posted at the Obama community website, but it was originally posted at Washington Independent. It written by a resident of Wasilla, and is an interesting read, and tells a few things about her positions and ability to administrate:
http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/jackiebell/gG5X5m



ABOUT SARAH PALIN

I am a resident of Wasilla, Alaska. I have known Sarah since 1992.
Everyone here knows Sarah, so it is nothing special to say we are on a
first-name basis. Our children have attended the same schools. Her
father was my child's favorite substitute teacher. I also am on a
first name basis with her parents and mother-in-law. I attended more
City Council meetings during her administration than about 99% of the
residents of the city.

She is enormously popular; in every way she’s like the most popular
girl in middle school. Even men who think she is a poor choice and
won't vote for her can't quit smiling when talking about her because
she is a "babe".

It is astonishing and almost scary how well she can keep a secret. She
kept her most recent pregnancy a secret from her children and parents
for seven months.

She is "pro-life". She recently gave birth to a Down's syndrome baby.
There is no cover-up involved, here; Trig is her baby.

She is energetic and hardworking. She regularly worked out at the gym.

She is savvy. She doesn't take positions; she just "puts things out
there" and if they prove to be popular, then she takes credit.

Her husband works a union job on the North Slope for BP and is a
champion snowmobile racer. Todd Palin’s kind of job is highly
sought-after because of the schedule and high pay. He arranges his
work schedule so he can fish for salmon in Bristol Bay for a month or
so in summer, but by no stretch of the imagination is fishing their
major source of income. Nor has her life-style ever been anything
like that of native Alaskans.

Sarah and her whole family are avid hunters.

She's smart.

Her experience is as mayor of a city with a population of about 5,000
(at the time), and less than 2 years as governor of a state with about
670,000 residents.

During her mayoral administration most of the actual work of running
this small city was turned over to an administrator. She had been
pushed to hire this administrator by party power-brokers after she had
gotten herself into some trouble over precipitous firings which had
given rise to a recall campaign.

Sarah campaigned in Wasilla as a “fiscal conservative”. During her 6
years as Mayor, she increased general government expenditures by over
33%. During those same 6 years the amount of taxes collected by the
City increased by 38%. This was during a period of low inflation
(1996-2002). She reduced progressive property taxes and increased a
regressive sales tax which taxed even food. The tax cuts that she
promoted benefited large corporate property owners way more than they
benefited residents.

The huge increases in tax revenues during her mayoral administration
weren’t enough to fund everything on her wish list though, borrowed
money was needed, too. She inherited a city with zero debt, but left it
with indebtedness of over $22 million. What did Mayor Palin encourage
the voters to borrow money for? Was it the infrastructure that she said
she supported? The sewage treatment plant that the city lacked? or a
new library? No. $1m for a park. $15m-plus for construction of a
multi-use sports complex which she rushed through to build on a piece
of property that the City didn’t even have clear title to, that was
still in litigation 7 yrs later--to the delight of the lawyers
involved! The sports complex itself is a nice addition to the
community but a huge money pit, not the profit-generator she claimed it
would be. She also supported bonds for $5.5m for road projects that
could have been done in 5-7 yrs without any borrowing.

While Mayor, City Hall was extensively remodeled and her office
redecorated more than once.

These are small numbers, but Wasilla is a very small city.

As an oil producer, the high price of oil has created a budget surplus
in Alaska. Rather than invest this surplus in technology that will
make us energy independent and increase efficiency, as Governor she
proposed distribution of this surplus to every individual in the state.

In this time of record state revenues and budget surpluses, she
recommended that the state borrow/bond for road projects, even while
she proposed distribution of surplus state revenues: spend today's
surplus, borrow for needs.

She’s not very tolerant of divergent opinions or open to outside ideas
or compromise. As Mayor, she fought ideas that weren’t generated by
her or her staff. Ideas weren’t evaluated on their merits, but on the
basis of who proposed them.

While Sarah was Mayor of Wasilla she tried to fire our highly respected
City Librarian because the Librarian refused to consider removing from
the library some books that Sarah wanted removed. City residents
rallied to the defense of the City Librarian and against Palin's
attempt at out-and-out censorship, so Palin backed down and withdrew
her termination letter. People who fought her attempt to oust the
Librarian are on her enemies list to this day.

Sarah complained about the “old boy’s club” when she first ran for
Mayor, so what did she bring Wasilla? A new set of "old boys". Palin
fired most of the experienced staff she inherited. At the City and as
Governor she hired or elevated new, inexperienced, obscure people,
creating a staff totally dependent on her for their jobs and eternally
grateful and fiercely loyal--loyal to the point of abusing their power
to further her personal agenda, as she has acknowledged happened in the
case of pressuring the State’s top cop (see below).

As Mayor, Sarah fired Wasilla’s Police Chief because he “intimidated”
her, she told the press. As Governor, her recent firing of Alaska's top
cop has the ring of familiarity about it. He served at her pleasure
and she had every legal right to fire him, but it's pretty clear that
an important factor in her decision to fire him was because he wouldn't
fire her sister's ex-husband, a State Trooper. Under investigation
for abuse of power, she has had to admit that more than 2 dozen
contacts were made between her staff and family to the person that she
later fired, pressuring him to fire her ex-brother-in-law. She tried to
replace the man she fired with a man who she knew had been reprimanded
for sexual harassment; when this caused a public furor, she withdrew
her support.

She has bitten the hand of every person who extended theirs to her in
help. The City Council person who personally escorted her around town
introducing her to voters when she first ran for Wasilla City Council
became one of her first targets when she was later elected Mayor. She
abruptly fired her loyal City Administrator; even people who didn’t
like the guy were stunned by this ruthlessness.

Fear of retribution has kept all of these people from saying anything
publicly about her.

When then-Governor Murkowski was handing out political plums, Sarah got
the best, Chair of the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission: one
of the few jobs not in Juneau and one of the best paid. She had no
background in oil & gas issues. Within months of scoring this great
job which paid $122,400/yr, she was complaining in the press about the
high salary. I was told that she hated that job: the commute, the
structured hours, the work. Sarah became aware that a member of this
Commission (who was also the State Chair of the Republican Party)
engaged in unethical behavior on the job. In a gutsy move which some
undoubtedly cautioned her could be political suicide, Sarah solved all
her problems in one fell swoop: got out of the job she hated and
garnered gobs of media attention as the patron saint of ethics and as a
gutsy fighter against the “old boys’ club” when she dramatically quit,
exposing this man’s ethics violations (for which he was fined).

As Mayor, she had her hand stuck out as far as anyone for pork from
Senator Ted Stevens. Lately, she has castigated his pork-barrel
politics and publicly humiliated him. She only opposed the “bridge to
nowhere” after it became clear that it would be unwise not to.

As Governor, she gave the Legislature no direction and budget
guidelines, then made a big grandstand display of line-item vetoing
projects, calling them pork. Public outcry and further legislative
action restored most of these projects--which had been vetoed simply
because she was not aware of their importance--but with the unobservant
she had gained a reputation as “anti-pork”.

She is solidly Republican: no political maverick. The State party
leaders hate her because she has bit them in the back and humiliated
them. Other members of the party object to her self-description as a
fiscal conservative.

Around Wasilla there are people who went to high school with Sarah.
They call her “Sarah Barracuda” because of her unbridled ambition and
predatory ruthlessness. Before she became so powerful, very ugly
stories circulated around town about shenanigans she pulled to be made
point guard on the high school basketball team. When Sarah's
mother-in-law, a highly respected member of the community and
experienced manager, ran for Mayor, Sarah refused to endorse her.

As Governor, she stepped outside of the box and put together of package
of legislation known as “AGIA” that forced the oil companies to march
to the beat of her drum.

Like most Alaskans, she favors drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife
Refuge. She has questioned if the loss of sea ice is linked to
global warming. She campaigned “as a private citizen” against a state
initiaitive that would have either a) protected salmon streams from
pollution from mines, or b) tied up in the courts all mining in the
state (depending on who you listen to). She has pushed the State’s
lawsuit against the Dept. of the Interior’s decision to list polar
bears as threatened species.

McCain is the oldest person to ever run for President; Sarah will be a
heartbeat away from being President.

There has to be literally millions of Americans who are more
knowledgeable and experienced than she.

However, there’s a lot of people who have underestimated her and are
regretting it.


CLAIM VS FACT
•“Hockey mom”: true for a few years
•“PTA mom”: true years ago when her first-born was in elementary
school, not since
•“NRA supporter”: absolutely true
•social conservative: mixed. Opposes gay marriage, BUT vetoed a bill
that would have denied benefits to employees in same-sex relationships
(said she did this because it was unconsitutional).
•pro-creationism: mixed. Supports it, BUT did nothing as Governor to
promote it.
•“Pro-life”: mixed. Knowingly gave birth to a Down’s syndrome baby
BUT declined to call a special legislative session on some pro-life
legislation
•“Experienced”: Some high schools have more students than Wasilla has
residents. Many cities have more residents than the state of Alaska.
No legislative experience other than City Council. Little hands-on
supervisory or managerial experience; needed help of a city
administrator to run town of about 5,000.
•political maverick: not at all
•gutsy: absolutely!
•open & transparent: ??? Good at keeping secrets. Not good at
explaining actions.
•has a developed philosophy of public policy: no
•”a Greenie”: no. Turned Wasilla into a wasteland of big box stores
and disconnected parking lots. Is pro-drilling off-shore and in ANWR.
•fiscal conservative: not by my definition!
•pro-infrastructure: No. Promoted a sports complex and park in a city
without a sewage treatment plant or storm drainage system. Built
streets to early 20th century standards.
•pro-tax relief: Lowered taxes for businesses, increased tax burden on
residents
•pro-small government: No. Oversaw greatest expansion of city
government in Wasilla’s history.
•pro-labor/pro-union. No. Just because her husband works union
doesn’t make her pro-labor. I have seen nothing to support any claim
that she is pro-labor/pro-union.

[Rutabaga]

Wow. Just...wow.

Palin's speech is tonight, won't be watching, don't care. Plus Ghost Hunters starts anew again tonight, woohoo! :dance

There is speculation starting now about this being a "Tom Eagleton moment," like when George McGovern's running mate had to withdraw when his battles with depression and treatment with shock therapy were revealed. I think Palin withdrawing or being asked to step aside would be a good thing, but I'm not sure it will happen because it will do even more damage to McCain. As I saw someone point out at Huffington Post, if Palin drops off the ticket, McCain will enrage the right wing evangelicals that he's so desperately tried to court with this choice. So I think he's stuck with her.

[Jedi Master Carr]

It be shocking if she got out now. It would probably do more harm for him at this point.

[Yog]

I don't think she will withdraw now, it's too late. They will attempt to ride the storm and hope for the best. Although, I bet McCain now understands his pick is potentially catastrophic, and that it did not help him. He is probably bitter about being pressured to pick a candidate over those he personally preferred (Liberman or Ridge). At this point, all they can do is try to crawl out of this big hole they dug themselves into. In the meanwhile, there is the ominous threat of what conclusions comes of Troopergate. The project leader of the investigation already said the findings are likely to be damaging to the Governor. It is not hard to imagine why the McCain camp is trying to stall the investigation.

[Jedieb]

I still think it's too early to say this pick has been a disaster. I've ragged on it as much as anyone, but I'm not the person McCain was going after when he chose Palin. He was going after Bush Evangelicals and alienated Hillary voters. The first group is completely in LOVE with her. They're opening their hearts and wallets. Since her selection Obama has actually shored up his support amongst Clinton voters but we still don't know just how many Hillary supporters she's nabbed. Yes, she and Hillary have little in common except for ovaries, but there has to be some percentage of those HIllary supporters who followed her simply because she was a woman. I would think Palin could grab a few of those.

The Big Speech
She's been holed up writing and prepping for tonight's speech. I would be stunned if it didn't turn out to be a rating's success. The curiosity factor and the media bashing she's been taking are probably going to make tonight's numbers big. I think her numbers tonight could rival Obama's. But here's the kicker, because of the curiosity factor and tomorrow's NFL season opener, I bet she's going to pull in bigger numbers than McCain! I can only imagine how that will get spun.

Right now she's taking a pounding, and it could easily continue after her speech tonight as the pundits weigh in. There could very well end up being a backlash against the press. Much of the piling on is due to her being unknown, her weak resume, and the obvious failure of McCain to vet her properly, but I think at some point some undecideds may think she's being crucified. I haven't made up my mind about seeing her speech. I may just take my cue from my wife. If she feels like watching it I'll try to stomach as much of it as I can.

[CMJ]

Oh, I'll be watching. ;)

She's my crush of the moment. I may watch on mute, but I'll be wtaching :lol

[Morgan Evanar]

CMJ is officially attracted to bad girls.

[CMJ]

CMJ is officially attracted to bad girls.

:lol

No, she has sort of a Tina Fey look. And I love me some Tina Fey.

[Yog]

I still think it's too early to say this pick has been a disaster. I've ragged on it as much as anyone, but I'm not the person McCain was going after when he chose Palin. He was going after Bush Evangelicals and alienated Hillary voters. The first group is completely in LOVE with her. They're opening their hearts and wallets. Since her selection Obama has actually shored up his support amongst Clinton voters but we still don't know just how many Hillary supporters she's nabbed. Yes, she and Hillary have little in common except for ovaries, but there has to be some percentage of those HIllary supporters who followed her simply because she was a woman. I would think Palin could grab a few of those.

I think McCain is rallying the base, giving him a net positive among republicans, especially the religious right. But you can bet there is some grumbling in his own party (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/212920.php) as well, even though they don't say so publically. The Hillary nab tactic is probably going to have a minimal effect. I heard a lot of those were actually offended by the pick, because it so obviously was fishing for their votes. Remember, the Clinton camp always emphasised the importance of experience, and Palin is just the opposite of that. I think the vast majority of the female voters who were swayed by Palin, were Republicans already.

More than anything else, McCain is going to alienate the undecided and independent voters with his VP pick. I feel that not only cancels out any gain he had by rallying his base, but actually gives Obama a net positive overall, as indicated by the polls. I am pretty optimistic at this point. The media narrative has been excellent for Obama the last couple weeks, so I think he will keep a substantial lead, even after the RNC.

Take a look at some polls from today:

Undecideds Don't Like The Palin Pick

On the critical question, "With Palin As Vice-Presidential Nominee, Are You More Or Less Likely To Vote For McCain," there's a striking result. Among those already for McCain, 68 percent say it makes them more likely to vote for him; only 6 percent say less; and 23 percent said no impact. Among those already for Obama, Palin made only 9 percent of them more likely to switch to McCain, 59 percent less likely, and 30 percent said it would make no difference.

But among the critical undecideds, the Palin pick made only 6 percent more likely to vote for McCain; and it made 31 percent less likely to vote for him. 49 percent said it would have no impact, and 15 percent remained unsure. More to the point: among undecideds, 59 percent said Palin was unready to be president. Only 6 percent said she was. If the first criterion for any job is whether you're ready for it, this is a pretty major indictment of the first act of McCain's presidential leadership. http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/08/undecideds-dont.html



"don't like the choice of Sarah Palin for vice president"

Another week, another Frank Luntz/AARP focus group of undecided voters--this one in Minneapolis and with some bad news for John McCain: they don't like the choice of Sarah Palin for vice president. Only one person said Palin made him more likely to vote for McCain; about half the 25-member group raised their hands when asked if Palin made them less likely to vote for McCain. They had a negative impression of Palin by a 2-1 margin...a fact that was reinforced when they were given hand-dials and asked to react to Palin's speech at her first appearance with McCain on Friday---the dials remained totally neutral as Palin went through her heart-warming(?) biography, and only blipped upwards when she said she opposed the Bridge to Nowhere--which wasn't quite the truth, as we now know.

Then there was this, from a woman named Teresa, who went to the Democratic Convention as a Hillary delegate and is leaning toward voting for McCain--obviously the target audience for the Palin pick: "His age didn't really bother me until he picked Palin. What if he dies in office and leaves us with her as President? Also she leans toward the rigid right, and I always thought he was a moderate...You know, I change my mind almost every day, but right now I"m wondering where the John McCain I really liked in 2000 went, what happened to the moderate? This John McCain has the look of someone who is being manipulated--probably by Karl Rove."

Teresa still wasn't willing to vote for Obama, whom she considers too inexperienced, but she was clearly wavering. Afterwards Luntz, good Republican that he is, made the case that Palin could win all these people back with a good convention speech, but that seemed far-fetched to me. They really saw this pick as a gimmick--and one that reflected badly on John McCain's judgment.http://www.time-blog.com/swampland/2008/08/focusedthe_sequel.html



Obama Gains Overall, McCain Among GOP Women

These data show, however, that at least initially, McCain has lost ground among both white independent women and white independent men (and among Democrats of both genders) since the convention and his vice-presidential selection.

Instead, the data suggest that McCain has in essence fought a rear-guard action of sorts among white women of his own GOP base, building their support to a degree even as he was losing support among independents and Democrats of both genders.

It is possible, but not provable with these data, that McCain's selection of a woman, Gov. Sarah Palin of Alaska, as his vice-presidential running mate may have had the effect of solidifying support among women of his own party.http://www.gallup.com/poll/109975/Obama-Gains-Overall-McCain-Among-GOP-Women.aspx


Time / CNN Battleground Poll:


OHIO: Obama 47, McCain 45

MINNESOTA: Obama 53, McCain 41

IOWA: Obama 55, McCain 40
http://thepage.time.com/2008/09/03/timecnn-battleground-polls-2/


It's looking good, IMO... :)

[Jedi Master Carr]

There is this now
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/09/03/politics/fromtheroad/entry4413030.shtml

The Enquirer did get the Edwards affair right so you never know.

[Rutabaga]

I just have to pop in momentarily and say just how disgusted and angry I am about the Republican party using the diversionary tactic of basically saying that any questioning of Palin's competency and ability to be VP is sexism.

:shakefist

Politics is a dirty, dirty game. You can't play the game with the big dogs and not be prepared and willing to get punched in the eye every now and then. For them to expect that Palin should be treated differently, with more tenderness and gentleness and chivalry, just because she's a woman is sexism in and of itself. And it just reeks.

And as much as I hate to say this, because I hate stooping to their level...if they insist on constantly playing the sexism card, then the response from the left should be that any criticism of Obama is racism.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I just have to pop in momentarily and say just how disgusted and angry I am about the Republican party using the diversionary tactic of basically saying that any questioning of Palin's competency and ability to be VP is sexism.

:shakefist

Politics is a dirty, dirty game. You can't play the game with the big dogs and not be prepared and willing to get punched in the eye every now and then. For them to expect that Palin should be treated differently, with more tenderness and gentleness and chivalry, just because she's a woman is sexism in and of itself. And it just reeks.

And as much as I hate to say this, because I hate stooping to their level...if they insist on constantly playing the sexism card, then the response from the left should be that any criticism of Obama is racism.

Politics have been dirty in this country since the beginning. The Election of 1800 is probably the dirties and lowest one ever.

[SiberTiger]

Well in my eyes, Obama has proven he can't run anything on his own. He's got a group of 2500 people, just to run his campaign for him.

I'm sure McCain has a staff as well, but I'll bet its not 2500 people who tell him what to do.

[Cat X]

There is this now
http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/09/03/politics/fromtheroad/entry4413030.shtml

The Enquirer did get the Edwards affair right so you never know.

They also took the credit for breakign the Palin baby story, so mark that 2 from 2.

[Yog]

Breaking news in the Troopergate scandal!


"This trooper is still out on the street, in fact he's been promoted," said the Feb. 7, 2007, e-mail sent from Palin's personal Yahoo account and written to give Monegan permission to speak on a violent-crime bill before the state legislature.

"It was a joke, the whole year long 'investigation' of him," the e-mail said. "This is the same trooper who's out there today telling people the new administration is going to destroy the trooper organization, and that he'd 'never work for that b****', Palin'.)"
...
The e-mails, never before made public, were shown to The Washington Post by a former public safety commissioner, Walter Monegan, who was fired by Palin in July. Monegan has given copies of the e-mails to state ethics investigators to support his contention that he was dismissed for failing to fire Trooper Mike Wooten, who at the time was feuding with Palin's family.

This shows Palin was lying about not pressuring Monegan.


Also, simultaneously, there is this:

Palin Wants Independent Trooper-Gate Probe Called Off

In the latest sign that Sarah Palin's promised cooperation with the Trooper-Gate investigation is failing to materialize, her lawyer is now demanding that the entire case be taken out of the hands of the independent prosecutor hired by Alaska lawmakers, and given over to a state personnel board -- whose three members were appointed by the governor herself.

In an unusual "ethics disclosure" filed last night, along with related documents, to the state Attorney General, Palin's lawyer, Thomas Van Flein, asked the personnel board to look into the firing of Walt Monegan, the former public safety commissioner at the center of the case. Van Flein also asked the legislature to drop its own investigation, contending that only the personnel board has jurisdiction over ethics. And he suggested that if the legislature didn't agree to hand the matter over to the personnel board, Palin would not be made available for a deposition.http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/09/palin_wants_independent_troope.php


This is not the first time Sarah has been involved in controversial firings though. There is also the former police chief who was fired for challenging Palin's campaign contributors (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=5713866), or the time when she tried to fire city librarian in order to force censorship of books. There are other examples as well, like this one:


Palin fired the whole state Agriculture and Conservation board in July 2007, ostensibly to save a mismanaged state-owned dairy, and replaced it with her usual gang of cronies. As a result, the dairy lost more money than it had in twenty years. The dairy, an Alaska icon, closed anyway in two months, taking hundreds of thousands of dollars of additional state money with it. Millions of dollars in dairy equipment ended up, at a steep discount, in the hands of a local Palin ally, who now runs a remarkably similar operation with the help of a Ted Stevens earmark.http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/9/3/9330/95523/364/584429

[Cat X]

Did anyone just watch or read Romney's speech? LIBERAL ARE KILLING US ALL!!!

Holy crap, that was disgusting and offensive. Goodbye Independant voters. And goodbye Goldwater conservatives.

[Yog]

Did anyone just watch or read Romney's speech? LIBERAL ARE KILLING US ALL!!!

Holy crap, that was disgusting and offensive. Goodbye Independant voters. And goodbye Goldwater conservatives.

Ugh, yeah, I am watching the speeches now at CNN.com.

[Cat X]

Mitt Romney: "We must stamp out promiscuity in our schools!"

That's..... not extactly a good thing t say Mitt, you idiot. Oh wait, no forget I called you idiot. Keep speaking. I'm enjoying the RNC destroying it's election chances

[Yog]

Here comes Giuliani.... :x

[Rutabaga]

Did anyone just watch or read Romney's speech? LIBERAL ARE KILLING US ALL!!!

Holy crap, that was disgusting and offensive. Goodbye Independant voters. And goodbye Goldwater conservatives.

I watched a bit of Larry King's coverage of last night's speeches, and granted it was Democratic reaction, but still...Dee Dee Myers said what she got out of it is that only Republicans love their country. Ain't that great?

My mother said she was really looking forward to hearing Palin's speech, I said, "Have a great time, I've got better things to do." What's really sad, and what I think she doesn't really realize, is that the people who are in charge of her party nowadays have completely hijacked the party and destroyed everything the Republican party used to stand for. Like government not meddling in people's personal lives. That's all the Republicans do now is meddle meddle meddle.

[Rutabaga]

Here comes Giuliani.... :x

Guiliani: "Noun, verb, 9/11."

Guaranteed.

[Cat X]

Here comes Giuliani.... :x

Guiliani: "Noun, verb, 9/11."

Guaranteed.

Every time he mentions 11/9, take a drink.

This is disgusting. All we see here is spite and anger, personal attacks and outright lies. What a contrast from last week

[Rutabaga]

Here comes Giuliani.... :x

Guiliani: "Noun, verb, 9/11."

Guaranteed.

Every time he mentions 11/9, take a drink.

This is disgusting. All we see here is spite and anger, personal attacks and outright lies. What a contrast from last week

The sad thing is that this works with some people. It's just shameful.

Prepare the drinking game for tomorrow night, since McCain is: "Noun, verb, POW."

[Cat X]

Oh ye Gods and little fishes. This woman has a drillbit for a voice.

[Cat X]

http://img.waffleimages.com/04f65c33426ab0f68e70541e0fab74e3683ae8e0/rnctuesday2.jpg

Oh thank the LOrd that's over.

No policy

No facts

More lies

THIS is the party that wants to oppose Obama???

[Figrin D'an]

Convention speeches are never about policy and facts. They're about rallying the base and attacking the opponent. Regardless of the speaker, it's 95% bluster. Both parties behave in this manner, so it's not like the content of any of the speeches tonight was at all surprising.

[CMJ]

I saw the first half of the speech, but then I got a phone call and missed the rest. I thought it was really effective for what I saw. I'm not saying she convinced me to vote for them or anything, just that it was well done.

She is very charasmatic IMHO.

(And not just cause she's a MILF)

[Jedieb]

I got home from my softball game, took a shower, and then settled in to watch.... a George Carlin DVD. My wife was watching 48 Hours and would tune into the speech for a bit. What she saw was mostly Palin on the attack. I didn't see much, but it certainly looks like it was a hit with the audience and it's certainly looking like it's going to be well received. I'm just wondering how much time she spent on the economy. To quote the last Democrat who was able to pants Republicans at the Presidential level, "It's about the economy stupid."

[Cat X]

Convention speeches are never about policy and facts. They're about rallying the base and attacking the opponent. Regardless of the speaker, it's 95% bluster. Both parties behave in this manner, so it's not like the content of any of the speeches tonight was at all surprising.

The DNC seemed to not do this. Especially Obama. I remeber an awful lot about policy and positions and facts comign from him.


She is very charasmatic

I must be allergic to Alaskans then. UGH. THAT HORRID VOICE

[CMJ]

I must be allergic to Alaskans then. UGH. THAT HORRID VOICE

I like her voice and the way she speaks. Very folksy, salt of the Earth.

[Cat X]

I must be allergic to Alaskans then. UGH. THAT HORRID VOICE

I like her voice and the way she speaks. Very folksy, salt of the Earth.


Translation : Redneck!

:lol

[CMJ]

Translation : Redneck!

:lol

I'd say I'm salt of the Earth...so I'm somewhat offended.

[Cat X]

Translation : Redneck!

:lol

I'd say I'm salt of the Earth...so I'm somewhat offended.



A bare faced liar is not the salt of the earth. Expect dKos to have a full list of every outright knowing lie she spoke tonight and I'll be happy to link.

You might be salt of the earth and I know your a good guy - but this... this.... pathetic puppet McCain has put up is not. She is a liar, she is corrupt and that's just the stuff we have found out in the last 2 days.

This whole night of wathcing the RNC has just inflamed good people, insulted them and just angered when that is the last thing needed. I felt like I was watching Big Brother's Two minutes Hate with Obama the new Goldstein.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I think it was a nothing speech. Not one mention about the economy tonight. I guess everybody is doing great.

[CMJ]

Dailykos? That left wing echo chamber?

They're almost as bad as the right wing hate machine.

Listen, I thought she was effective. She was funny and down to Earth. I enjoyed listening to her speak. Not many people really vote on VP, you vote for the top of the ticket. The VP might help you among certain groups, or states - but it's not gonna win or lose you an election more than likely.

Within a week she probably won't be thought of much at all until the debates. Or the select states where they send her to campaign(probably smallish western Red States like Montana where her "salt of the earth" mantra will play well). I'm sure she'll barely make a blip on the National scene soon.

[Rutabaga]

I didn't watch the speech, just some coverage after it. Even some of the people who liked the speech mentioned that it was mean-spirited and nasty...I seriously doubt they would win any undecided voters over with that tone. It was created strictly for the base, and of course the base ate it up. I would expect nothing less. But can you imagine if Hillary Clinton had given a similar speech? The Republicans would have acted like the world was coming to an end.

She did LIE her boots off again, though, at least about the Bridge to Nowhere. It's already been proven that she's lied about it, and she lied again. That just doesn't make any sense.

And I heard more than one talking head mention that she's completely alienated community organizers by turning their work into a joke. Isn't that special?

[CMJ]

I caught the replay.

I thought the first half of the speech was really good as I've said. Even when on the attack she the sarcasm was effective and really funny. Somewhere about 20+ minutes in the tone went from humorous attacks to a bit shrill and mean spirited.

Obviously you can tell that several different voices tried to pen the speech and it showed. Sort of three different shifts in tone.

Still, I think she was very engaging. I don't see McCain winning the election, but I don't think this will be the end of Governor Palin. I could see her eventually becoming a Senator at the very least after her terms are over.

[Jaime Tomahawk]

Dailykos? That left wing echo chamber?

They're almost as bad as the right wing hate machine.


Except they'll be happy to tell the truth, unlike the right wing hate machine. And also call out the insult she made on community organizers. No, she wont get a senate spot. She'll be lucky to be a community organizer once she's ripped to shreds for her downright disgusting comments.

Rutabaga, yes, she insulted community organizers and disparaged their work as nothing when compared to the mayor of a town of 4500. And this is what's really got the leftist's worked up and angry. She just disparged the volunteers who help feed the poor, help shelter the sick.. she basically said Up Yours to the poor.

Some Christian values that.

[Yog]

Full text transcript of Palin speech
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7597238.stm

Youtube:
Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzVLObwHNX8)
Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82hn63DSjGE)
Part 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_toVmWHaJo)
Part 4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMnPXFgYG5c)

I will comment in detail about the speech later. I am not pleased about her "attacks" on Obama. This is going to infuriate the democrats.

[Rutabaga]

Dailykos? That left wing echo chamber?

They're almost as bad as the right wing hate machine.


Except they'll be happy to tell the truth, unlike the right wing hate machine. And also call out the insult she made on community organizers. No, she wont get a senate spot. She'll be lucky to be a community organizer once she's ripped to shreds for her downright disgusting comments.

Rutabaga, yes, she insulted community organizers and disparaged their work as nothing when compared to the mayor of a town of 4500. And this is what's really got the leftist's worked up and angry. She just disparged the volunteers who help feed the poor, help shelter the sick.. she basically said Up Yours to the poor.

Some Christian values that.

Especially considering that Jesus was the ultimate community organizer.

[Jaime Tomahawk]

Dailykos? That left wing echo chamber?

They're almost as bad as the right wing hate machine.


Except they'll be happy to tell the truth, unlike the right wing hate machine. And also call out the insult she made on community organizers. No, she wont get a senate spot. She'll be lucky to be a community organizer once she's ripped to shreds for her downright disgusting comments.

Rutabaga, yes, she insulted community organizers and disparaged their work as nothing when compared to the mayor of a town of 4500. And this is what's really got the leftist's worked up and angry. She just disparged the volunteers who help feed the poor, help shelter the sick.. she basically said Up Yours to the poor.

Some Christian values that.

Especially considering that Jesus was the ultimate community organizer.

Oh.

OUCH.

Yes of course.

What an utter betrayal of Jesus.

Christians are seriously going to let THIS have another 4 years? No wonder I have trouble saying who I am. This is embarrassing and frankly I cant even begin to understand how it's happened - the hijacking of real Christianity into this fake political entity that spews hate and division wrapped in a gospel that I cant find in the Bible. And you know what's worse? This is too recognizable to me. It has the stench of John Howard's tatics until we got rid of him.

We have our own problems with the AOG (th denomination of Palin) as well. And yes, these tatics they use as well with the same words and the same bashing of left wing interests. GG, this cancer has spread from here.

These same words she used a guy called Alex Hawke in Australia used about two years ago. I know a few Howard staffers now work of Bush and McCain.

Please Lord, be graceful to us and give us a way to stop these Pharasees :(

[CMJ]

I have to say I felt the community organizer line was pretty humorous when delivered. She'd been ridiculed for being a small town mayor and a small state governor, so she was just returning the condescending favor.

That doesn't mean I agree that community organizers do nothing btw. I just thought it was a funny comeback after all the poking in the eyes she's been given as of late. It was her turn to poke back a bit, and if you're so partisan not to realize that - then I don't know what to say.

Vice Presidential candidates are always given that job. Poke some fun at the other side, rile up the base. Dear lord people. I've seen way more snarky speeches from both sides in my lifetime.

[Yog]

I thought about some of the keypoints in her speech. Here are my comments..

"being a small time Mayor is sort of like being a community organizer, except that you have actual responsibilities..."
You mean, responsibilities like trying to ban books at your local libary and putting your town of 5,000 into $20M debt? Surely, this is superior to helping the poor, fighting for civil rights, establishing a job training program, a college preparatory tutoring program, and a tenants' rights organization. Or maybe you are referring to the coordinating of a grass move movement where 150,000 African-Americans vote for the first time. Martin Luther King was a community organizer btw.


"if you're not a member in good standing of the Washington elite, then some in the media consider a candidate unqualified for that reason alone."
I'll keep that argument in mind for my next job interview. Obviously, Beauty Queen and Mayor of town the size of an alley in Chicago gives the exectuve experience to step into the most powerful position in the world and run a country, if required. How dare those elitists suggest you're not ready?


"When I stood up to the special interests"
Says lifetime member of NRA and FFL.

"..and the lobbyists"
Steven Silver (http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/09/palins_lobbyist_has_abramoff_t.php) would like to have a word with you.

"..and the big oil companies"
Yeah, pushing for pipe lines, promoting oil and natural gas resource development in ANWR, and claiming global warming is not man made, are clear examples of fighting the big nasty oil companies. That will show them!

"..and the good ol boys..."
Translation: When someone disagrees with you, they are fired.

"control of spending"
Alaska receives $13,950 per capita in federal dollars (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/9/3/16105/50263/679/584098), the #1 state in the country in per capita fed spending dollars received. Alaska receives nearly twice as much federal dollars than they contribute to federal income. State Spending Per Capita in Alaska is more than double than the national average, almost a factor of 3. Sarah Palin increased operating budget by 27 percent over two years (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-love/sarah-palins-increased-op_b_123400.html). And don't get me started on earmarks.
http://www.mneh.org/pics/debatt/president-08/alaska-spending.png


"We have a surplus"
With a population of 683K and record high prices on your #1 export, you have a budget surplus? :eek

"That luxury jet was over the top. I put it on eBay."
Well done, but the plane never sold on ebay. It was sold offline. Try and get your talking points right.

"vetoting half of billion dollar in wasteful spending"
Money which was put back during the following budget cycle.

"suspended the state fuel tax"
The legislature had a hand in suspending it.

"championed reform to end wasteful earmark spending"
Ah.. yes, requesting 31 earmarks worth $197.8 million for next year shows great courage in earmark reforms.

Sarah Palin: Earmark Queen Of The Earmark State (http://thinkprogress.org/wonkroom/2008/09/03/palin-earmarks/)
http://www.mneh.org/pics/debatt/president-08/per-capita-earmarks.jpg


I told the Congress "thanks, but no thanks," for that Bridge to Nowhere.
You mean, first supporting the bridge in your campaign, then saying "thanks but no thanks, but we'll keep the money".
http://www.mneh.org/pics/debatt/president-08/bridge-to-nowhere2.jpg


And despite fierce opposition from oil company lobbyists, who kind of liked things the way they were, we broke their monopoly on power and resources. As governor, I insisted on competition and basic fairness to end their control of our state and return it to the people.
Apart from a tax hike, nothing has changed.

"I fought to bring about the largest private-sector infrastructure project in North American history."
You spent $500M of taxpayer money paying a Canadian company to do some permitting paperwork. Nothing has come out of that yet.

"And when that deal was struck, we began a nearly forty billion dollar natural gas pipeline to help lead America to energy independence."
Lies. There is no deal for a pipeline, let alone an actual pipeline. The oil companies (who is supposed to pay for all this) is not even in on the deal yet.


"we're going to build more pipelines, more nuclear plants, clean coal, move forward on solar, wind, alternative sources."
As will Obama (http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/newenergy).


"this is a man who has authored two memoirs but not a single major law or reform - not even in the state senate.
Fact check (http://factcheck.barackobama.com/factcheck/2008/01/14/obamas_strong_record_of_accomp.php)

"This is a man who can give an entire speech about the wars America is fighting, and never use the word "victory" except when he's talking about his own campaign".
A war that not only pushed away US allies, but could cost US $3 TRILLION (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/07/AR2008030702846.html), wrecking the US economy with debt and inflation, and resulting in 83K documented deaths (http://www.iraqbodycount.org/) (real numbers are likely to be hundreds of thousands), and more than 4,000 US soldiers. And for what? That sure is some victory right there.

"But when the cloud of rhetoric has passed... when the roar of the crowd fades away... when the stadium lights go out, and those Styrofoam Greek columns are hauled back to some studio lot...
Speak for your self. Someone give her an Oscar already.

"Government is too big... he wants to grow it."
Yeah, the republicans know all about small government and keep their spendings low:
http://www.mneh.org/pics/debatt/president-08/debt.jpg


"Taxes are too high... he wants to raise them."
http://www.mneh.org/pics/debatt/president-08/taxes.gif

"In politics, there are some candidates who use change to promote their careers. And then there are those, like John McCain, who use their careers to promote change."
By voting 90% of the time with Bush, and agreeing with him on the major issues like economy and national security? McCain has more lobbyists on his campaign than any other candidate LINK (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4210251).


And then there is the idealism of those leaders, like John McCain, who actually do great things. They're the ones who are good for more than talk... the ones we have always been able to count on to serve and defend America.
Yes. And he is way out of your league.


I grade this speech an F in factual value, and an A+ in theatrical performance.

[CMJ]

Yog, you win because I spent to much time in rebuttal and SW-Fans refused my post.

I agree with some of what you say(book banning indefensible), but disagree vehemently with other sections(dude, she's a member of the NRA in Alaska...probably half the freaking state is, she's not in their pocket...she just agrees with them) and I'm not about to type all that crud out again point by point.

[Yog]

I don't necessarily think she is in the pockets of anyone, at least not yet. But I would like to learn more about where she stood up to special interest. I think politicians would do well to stay out of special interest organisations, as it presents a conflict of interest with their work.

Anyway, what other points did you disagree with? Could you give some cliffnotes? :)

[Jedieb]

Yog v. CMJ in a battle royale over the damsel Palin. Court, you do realize she won't sleep with you, even if you win? At least, I don't think she would...

DKos
Daily Kos is a site I visit, especially during this election season. But it's a left wing blog, that's undeniable. Some of the stuff that comes out of there is just as outrageous as the crap you'd find in right wing blogs. My partisan glasses allow me to view Dkos and enjoy much of what's there. But those same glasses induce me to vomit if I'm reading a right wing blog. When I see a story about Palin faking her pregnancy I can read and while not believing it, I can read it and not freak out. But if I'm reading some right wing hack go on about Obama being a secret Muslim who really wasn't born in Hawaii, was educated in a Madrass(sp?), blah, blah, blah, I almost go insane.

I thought there were way too many veiled attacks at Micelle Obama last night. Just about every line about being "proud" of their country was a dig at her. Palin may never have registered with the AIP, but her husband sure as hell was. And if he was ever stupid enough to have spouted any of their "Independence" rhetoric it's only a matter of time before someone finds it. I'd love to see how the right spins that. And man will I laugh my butt off if somebody turns up a record of Palin spewing that specific AIP pollicy.

I've read only a few reviews, but it seems she did alright. I'm just curious how the speech will play with Independents, Moderates and Undecideds.

Oh, and did anyone notice how the groom to be Levi strutted onto the stage, chewing gum like an obnoxious middle schooler? My wife pointed it out to me and I couldn't help but laugh.

[CMJ]

Oh, and did anyone notice how the groom to be Levi strutted onto the stage, chewing gum like an obnoxious middle schooler? My wife pointed it out to me and I couldn't help but laugh.

You shoulda seen the reaction shots of him during the speech. He looked like a sourpuss that was thinking "Of all chicks I had to sleep with I picked the one whose Mom would run for VP".

BTW - I'm not saying I'd ever vote for Palin guys. It's funny, my liberal thinking friends consider me some conservative apologizer and my Republican buddies think I'm some "Hollywood liberal".

I must be doing something right.

[Yog]

Yog v. CMJ in a battle royale over the damsel Palin. Court, you do realize she won't sleep with you, even if you win? At least, I don't think she would...

Damn, you're right... :shakefist

Edit: Oh, wait you mean CMJ, haha

[Jedieb]

Oh, and did anyone notice how the groom to be Levi strutted onto the stage, chewing gum like an obnoxious middle schooler? My wife pointed it out to me and I couldn't help but laugh.

You shoulda seen the reaction shots of him during the speech. He looked like a sourpuss that was thinking "Of all chicks I had to sleep with I picked the one whose Mom would run for VP".

BTW - I'm not saying I'd ever vote for Palin guys. It's funny, my liberal thinking friends consider me some conservative apologizer and my Republican buddies think I'm some "Hollywood liberal".

I must be doing something right.

I didn't think you were considering voting for her. On the other, your penis... :evil

[Jedieb]

I called it;
37,244,000 watched Palin's speech last night compared to 38,379,000 for Obama. That's an impressive debut. Now mark my words, McCain will draw less than BOTH of those tonight. And the RNC will spin it by saying; "Look at how she crushed Joe Biden!"

[Jedi Master Carr]

Mccain might get half that especially with the football game tonight.

[Yog]

DKos
I feel exactly the same way about Daily Kos. I know it is biased, but it is an entertaining read most of the time. Like everything else on the Internet, you should read with a critical eye. While there outrageous articles in there, there are high quality ones as well. The vast majority of the bloggers attempt to stay as factual as possible, and the stuff you find there appears long before it hits the news networks. I like to stay ahead of the curve.

Fox News has a peculiar stance toward DK. They will spin a story with no factual basis like you would not believe, but whenever something was found on DK, they will just disregard it because "crazy leftwing" wrote it, even if the material is spot on accuate. And vice versa, they'll show an obviously offensive story from DK and claim it represents the majority view. And then they blast the entire site because it was not censored. "Look at those viceous DK bloggers! Those crazy liberals!". O'Reilly does this all the time.

Edit: On the note of O'Reilly, Obama will appear on the O'Reilly factor tonight..



I'd love to see how the right spins that. And man will I laugh my butt off if somebody turns up a record of Palin spewing that specific AIP pollicy.
Oh man, that would be priceless.


Oh, and did anyone notice how the groom to be Levi strutted onto the stage, chewing gum like an obnoxious middle schooler? My wife pointed it out to me and I couldn't help but laugh.
How about this one from earlier... ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Xf-U1aOOw8


You shoulda seen the reaction shots of him during the speech. He looked like a sourpuss that was thinking "Of all chicks I had to sleep with I picked the one whose Mom would run for VP".
:lol


Mccain might get half that especially with the football game tonight.
I know, personally very excited about the game as well.

[Rutabaga]

I thought about some of the keypoints in her speech. Here are my comments..

"being a small time Mayor is sort of like being a community organizer, except that you have actual responsibilities..."
You mean, responsibilities like trying to ban books at your local libary and putting your town of 5,000 into $20M debt? Surely, this is superior to helping the poor, fighting for civil rights, establishing a job training program, a college preparatory tutoring program, and a tenants' rights organization. Or maybe you are referring to the coordinating of a grass move movement where 150,000 African-Americans vote for the first time. Martin Luther King was a community organizer btw.


"if you're not a member in good standing of the Washington elite, then some in the media consider a candidate unqualified for that reason alone."
I'll keep that argument in mind for my next job interview. Obviously, Beauty Queen and Mayor of town the size of an alley in Chicago gives the exectuve experience to step into the most powerful position in the world and run a country, if required. How dare those elitists suggest you're not ready?


"When I stood up to the special interests"
Says lifetime member of NRA and FFL.

"..and the lobbyists"
Steven Silver (http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/09/palins_lobbyist_has_abramoff_t.php) would like to have a word with you.

"..and the big oil companies"
Yeah, pushing for pipe lines, promoting oil and natural gas resource development in ANWR, and claiming global warming is not man made, are clear examples of fighting the big nasty oil companies. That will show them!

"..and the good ol boys..."
Translation: When someone disagrees with you, they are fired.

"control of spending"
Alaska receives $13,950 per capita in federal dollars (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/9/3/16105/50263/679/584098), the #1 state in the country in per capita fed spending dollars received. Alaska receives nearly twice as much federal dollars than they contribute to federal income. State Spending Per Capita in Alaska is more than double than the national average, almost a factor of 3. Sarah Palin increased operating budget by 27 percent over two years (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-love/sarah-palins-increased-op_b_123400.html). And don't get me started on earmarks.
http://www.mneh.org/pics/president-08/alaska-spending.png


"We have a surplus"
With a population of 683K and record high prices on your #1 export, you have a budget surplus? :eek

"That luxury jet was over the top. I put it on eBay."
Well done, but the plane never sold on ebay. It was sold offline. Try and get your talking points right.

"vetoting half of billion dollar in wasteful spending"
Money which was put back during the following budget cycle.

"suspended the state fuel tax"
The legislature had a hand in suspending it.

"championed reform to end wasteful earmark spending"
Ah.. yes, requesting 31 earmarks worth $197.8 million for next year shows great courage in earmark reforms.

Sarah Palin: Earmark Queen Of The Earmark State (http://thinkprogress.org/wonkroom/2008/09/03/palin-earmarks/)
http://www.mneh.org/pics/president-08/per-capita-earmarks.jpg


I told the Congress "thanks, but no thanks," for that Bridge to Nowhere.
You mean, first supporting the bridge in your campaign, then saying "thanks but no thanks, but we'll keep the money".
http://www.mneh.org/pics/president-08/bridge-to-nowhere2.jpg


And despite fierce opposition from oil company lobbyists, who kind of liked things the way they were, we broke their monopoly on power and resources. As governor, I insisted on competition and basic fairness to end their control of our state and return it to the people.
Apart from a tax hike, nothing has changed.

"I fought to bring about the largest private-sector infrastructure project in North American history."
You spent $500M of taxpayer money paying a Canadian company to do some permitting paperwork. Nothing has come out of that yet.

"And when that deal was struck, we began a nearly forty billion dollar natural gas pipeline to help lead America to energy independence."
Lies. There is no deal for a pipeline, let alone an actual pipeline. The oil companies (who is supposed to pay for all this) is not even in on the deal yet.


"we're going to build more pipelines, more nuclear plants, clean coal, move forward on solar, wind, alternative sources."
As will Obama (http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/newenergy).


"this is a man who has authored two memoirs but not a single major law or reform - not even in the state senate.
Fact check (http://factcheck.barackobama.com/factcheck/2008/01/14/obamas_strong_record_of_accomp.php)

"This is a man who can give an entire speech about the wars America is fighting, and never use the word "victory" except when he's talking about his own campaign".
A war that not only pushed away US allies, but could cost US $3 TRILLION (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/07/AR2008030702846.html), wrecking the US economy with debt and inflation, and resulting in 83K documented deaths (http://www.iraqbodycount.org/) (real numbers are likely to be hundreds of thousands), and more than 4,000 US soldiers. And for what? That sure is some victory right there.

"But when the cloud of rhetoric has passed... when the roar of the crowd fades away... when the stadium lights go out, and those Styrofoam Greek columns are hauled back to some studio lot...
Speak for your self. Someone give her an Oscar already.

"Government is too big... he wants to grow it."
Yeah, the republicans know all about small government and keep their spendings low:
http://www.mneh.org/pics/president-08/debt.jpg


"Taxes are too high... he wants to raise them."
http://www.mneh.org/pics/president-08/taxes.gif

"In politics, there are some candidates who use change to promote their careers. And then there are those, like John McCain, who use their careers to promote change."
By voting 90% of the time with Bush, and agreeing with him on the major issues like economy and national security? McCain has more lobbyists on his campaign than any other candidate LINK (http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4210251).


And then there is the idealism of those leaders, like John McCain, who actually do great things. They're the ones who are good for more than talk... the ones we have always been able to count on to serve and defend America.
Yes. And he is way out of your league.


I grade this speech an F in factual value, and an A+ in theatrical performance.

Yog, you rock. :dance

BTW, one quick thought before I'm able to come back later and spend more time...so the GOP is complaining about sexism re: Palin. Yet people are proudly wearing buttons at the convention calling Palin "The Hottest Governor From The Coldest State," or something very similar to that.

Um...pot, meet kettle. :rolleyes

[Rutabaga]

Well, you just knew it was a matter of time. Someone on the right finally used a word we've been waiting for. A very racially-tinged word.


Westmoreland calls Obama ‘uppity'
By Mike Soraghan
Posted: 09/04/08 03:07 PM [ET]
Georgia Republican Rep. Lynn Westmoreland used the racially-tinged term "uppity" to describe Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama Thursday.

Westmoreland was discussing vice presidential nominee Sarah Palin's speech with reporters outside the House chamber and was asked to compare her with Michelle Obama.

"Just from what little I’ve seen of her and Mr. Obama, Sen. Obama, they're a member of an elitist-class individual that thinks that they're uppity," Westmoreland said.

Asked to clarify that he used the word “uppity,” Westmoreland said, “Uppity, yeah.”

Other Democrats have charged that the Republican campaign to paint the Illinois senator as an “elitist” is racially charged, and accused them of using code words for “uppity” without using the word itself.

In August, Rep. Shelley Berkley (D-Nev.) told reporters, “When I hear the word ‘elitist’ linked with Barack Obama, to me, that is a code word for 'uppity.' I find it extremely offensive and John McCain should know better.”

Political consultant David Gergen, who has worked in both Republican and Democratic White Houses, said on ABC’s "This Week" that “As a native of the south, I can tell you, when you see this Charlton Heston ad, 'The One,' that's code for, 'He's uppity, he ought to stay in his place.' Everybody gets that who is from a Southern background.”

The Obama campaign, asked about the quote, did not note any racial context.

“Sounds like Rep. Westmoreland should be careful throwing stones from his candidate's eight glass houses,” said Obama spokesman Tommy Vietor.

Campaigning against the first black major-party nominee has already created some problems for Republicans.

Rep. Steve King (R-Iowa) said that Obama's middle name – Hussein – is relevant to the public discourse surrounding his candidacy, saying in March that if Obama were elected, "Then the radical Islamists, the al Qaeda, the radical Islamists and their supporters, will be dancing in the streets in greater numbers than they did on Sept. 11 because they will declare victory in this War on Terror."

At an April 12 event in his district, Kentucky Rep. Geoff Davis (R) said of Obama: “I’m going to tell you something: That boy’s finger does not need to be on the button. He could not make a decision in that simulation that related to a nuclear threat to this country.”

Davis sent a letter of apology to Obama in which he described his remark as a “poor choice of words.”

Westmoreland originally supported former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney for the Republican presidential nomination. He now supports McCain, but missed an August fundraiser for the nominee because he was vacationing with his family.

[Jedieb]

The game may not have as big dent as I'd previously thought. It looks like McCain won't start his speech until after the game. So the only things that should effect the ratings are a late start time and public indifference. We'll see.

[Cat X]

Well, you just knew it was a matter of time. Someone on the right finally used a word we've been waiting for. A very racially-tinged word.


And then they will cry WE WAZ WRONGED!! as soon as anyone says a thing bad about Palin.

Yeah the party that panders to Chrisitians are yet again blatantly lying and being racist and sexist. What hypocracy.

[Cat X]

And McCain has finished speaking.

Overall, not bad. The leadup was more total BS, but McCain himself.... what a damn pity he wasnt elected in 2000, a better man than Bush ever could be.

It's also a pity McCain has been forced to become McSame to get this far. And a pity he had to pander to the RR with the frankly scary Palin. What a damn pity becaus ehte McCain of 2000 would not have done that.

With any luck to now he's got the nomiation locked in, we'll see the McCain of 2000 re-emerge.

[Liam Jinn]

Did anyone see the crazy lady that crashed McCain's speech? I was lucky enough to flip to it right before it happened. I'm still a bit confused about what actually happened, but after crazy lady was escorted out, I flipped back to something else on TV that I didn't bother paying attention to.

[Daiquiri]

I find it hard to believe that some of you are still all for Obama after he went to 'church' for years knowing, hearing and listening to his white-hateing racist preacher who had - or still has - ties to Farrakan (sp?)

[Rutabaga]

I find it hard to believe that some of you are still all for Obama after he went to 'church' for years knowing, hearing and listening to his white-hateing racist preacher who had - or still has - ties to Farrakan (sp?)

1) Obama has said and done nothing that suggests he shares Reverend Wright's opinions. He has publicly repudiated Reverend Wright's opinions more than once. If people want to suggest that Obama is faking it and will suddenly become somebody totally different once in office, well, then what Obama deserves is an Oscar, not the presidency.

2) Reverend Wright is not running for office and is not on the ticket. He is a non-issue, and public opinion polls reflect this.

3) John McCain actively sought and was proud of his endorsements from people like Rod Parsley and John Hagee. Hagee said that Hurricane Katrina was punishment against the city of New Orleans because they dared to hold a gay pride parade. McCain finally rejected the endorsements after pressure.

4) When will the corporate media start reporting on the outrageous things that have been said in the churches Sarah Palin has attended? Or how about the things she herself has said, like how our invading Iraq was God's will, or that it's God's will that a new pipeline be built through Alaska? (It's there, trust me, I don't have the time to search for links...but just go to Google or YouTube and you'll find it.) There's a clear double standard on things like this. I firmly believe that Reverend Wright became an issue for the media because he was a loud, angry, shouting African-American. He was used as a weapon. The Caucasian preachers like Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, James Dobson, and the like are treated with much more respect and are not viewed as a threat. Although a lot of what they've said is even more reprehensible than things Reverend Wright said. So right now I'm holding out no hope that the corporate media will do any reporting on Palin's churches or direct quotes because it just isn't as "sexy" (sorry, can't think of a better word right now).

[Qadir Uthman Khel]

I find it hard to believe that some of you are still all for Obama after he went to 'church' for years knowing, hearing and listening to his white-hateing racist preacher who had - or still has - ties to Farrakan (sp?)

I agree 110% with everyone whom I associate with as well, right?. Come on, be realistic, this isn't even an issue. My grandfather still calls black people by a familiar offensive epithet, but that doesn't mean I disown him because he's living in anachronistic racism either. Would I prefer it to be otherwise? Sure, but I'm not going to burn a bridge over that. If I did this, I wouldn't associate with anyone, because there's nobody around that I share complete agreement with.

EDIT: Yeah, thanks for the Hagee nod. These guys both have crazy people who have been involved in their religious lives. So what? Another manufactured controversy, and not news.

[Jedieb]

I find it hard to believe that some of you are still all for Obama after he went to 'church' for years knowing, hearing and listening to his white-hateing racist preacher who had - or still has - ties to Farrakan (sp?)

And I find it hard to believe that some of you are still all for McCain/Palin after it was revealed that she went to 'church' for years knowing, hearing and listening to some of the following;
*President Bush will be banished to hell;
*questioned whether people who voted for Sen. John Kerry in 2004 would be accepted to heaven;
*charged that the 9/11 terrorist attacks and war in Iraq were part of a war "contending for your faith;"
* Jesus "operated from that position of war mode."
*end times" or "last days,"
And there's this gem from HER pastor;

He also claims to have received direct "words of knowledge" from God, providing him information about past events in other people's lives. During one sermon, he described being paired with a complete stranger during a golf outing. "I said, I'm a minister from Alaska and I want you to know that your wife left you -- you know that your wife left you and that the Lord is gonna defend you in a very short time, and it wasn't your fault. And the man drops his clubs, he literally was about to tee off and he dropped his clubs, and he says, 'Who the blank are you?' And I says, 'well, I'm a minister.' He says, 'how do you know about my life? What do you know?' And I started giving him more of the word of knowledge to his life and he was freaked out."

Wait, my bad, that was ancient history. It's been at least JUNE since Palin was seen with her pastor, Ed Kalnins.

Anyone who brings up Wright to argue against Obama better be prepared to deal with right wing religous nuts, and Palin is going to have her share of them.

[Yog]

I think Rutabaga, Qadir and Jedieb hit the nail on that issue, so I am not going to add anything.


Did anyone see the crazy lady that crashed McCain's speech? I was lucky enough to flip to it right before it happened. I'm still a bit confused about what actually happened, but after crazy lady was escorted out, I flipped back to something else on TV that I didn't bother paying attention to.

Yeah, I saw that. I was about 50% :lol and 50% :rolleyes

There were other protests as well, although they were less noisy.

You can see the full video and transcript of the speech here: LINK (http://conservablogs.com/velvethammer/2008/09/04/john-mccain-speech-rnc-2008-transcript/)

Despite distractions, I think it was a great speech by McCain. A polar opposite to 90% of the speeches at RNC, that were outright offensive. I can admit the man speaks with his heart and cincerity, even though I disagree with him on key elements in his policy. The speech did raise some concerns for me though, but I'll let that let rest for now. Most of them were touched on by New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/05/opinion/05fri1.html?hp). Associated Press (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/04/ap-attacks-praise-stretch_n_123771.html) also discussed some inaccuracies I did not mention in my review of Palin's speech.

I can't get over Palin though. I think she pushed the democrats buttons in all kinds of wrong ways. She may actually rallied the democrat base even more than she did for the republicans. The consensus seems to be, "we gotta fight this, we can't let this ticket into the White House"..
Obama raised $10M in 1 day since the Palin speech (http://tpmelectioncentral.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/09/obama_camp_has_now_raised_more.php)

She managed to offend the community organisers as well. Guess what community organisers are good at? Getting people organised toward a cause.
Community Organizers Respond To Palin’s Attack, Cite Civil Rights Movement» (http://thinkprogress.org/2008/09/04/organizers-respond-palin/)

There is also this hilarious little newsbit, a handwritten note (supposed to be Palin's writings) that comments on earmarks and federal funding of Wassilda:
"We did well!!!" (http://www.washingtonindependent.com/4346/palin-on-earmarks-we-did-well)

[Jedieb]

One of the sad realities of politics is that "bad" news is often good news for a political party, especially if you're the party that's not in the White House. Today's jobs report is brutal. Today's employment numbers put the jobless rate at a 5 year high after a loss of 84,000 jobs in August. And if you're a Democrat that's one of your weekend talking points.

The McCain bounce is already starting to show. We'll get an idea of just how big it is by the middle of next week.

[Yog]

Today's jobs report is brutal. Today's employment numbers put the jobless rate at a 5 year high after a loss of 84,000 jobs in August. And if you're a Democrat that's one of your weekend talking points.
That might explain why so few of the RNC speechs were about healthcare, jobs and the struggling economy etc. I think it is a conscious effort to try move the political agenda away from that, because GOP knows the country is not doing well, and they are largely responsible for that with failed policies. The only way the GOP can win this election is attacking their opponents, and try to misdirect the attention from the real issues.

[Yog]

Somehow, I am not surprised by this next little bombshell that has not reached MSM yet. For months, the media and the political establishment have credited The Surge in Iraq for the drop in death tolls. As if it was the most obvious thing in the world.. and without looking at it critically, to find if there could be other factors contributing to that. Well, here is what Bob Woodward of Washington Post (the man who uncovered Watergate) has to say about it in his new book, after interviewing 150 Bush administration officials, including Bush himself:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/9/5/93321/16354/142/587702


The book also says that the U.S. troop "surge" of 2007, in which President Bush sent nearly 30,000 additional U.S. combat forces and support troops to Iraq, was not the primary factor behind the steep drop in violence there during the past 16 months.
...

Rather, Woodward reports, "groundbreaking" new covert techniques enabled U.S. military and intelligence officials to locate, target and kill insurgent leaders and key individuals in extremist groups such as al-Qaeda in Iraq.

Woodward does not disclose the code names of these covert programs or provide much detail about them, saying in the book that White House and other officials cited national security concerns in asking him to withhold specifics.

...

Overall, Woodward writes, four factors combined to reduce the violence: the covert operations; the influx of troops; the decision by militant cleric Moqtada al-Sadr to rein in his powerful Mahdi Army; and the so-called Anbar Awakening, in which tens of thousands of Sunnis turned against al-Qaeda in Iraq and allied with U.S. forces.

...

According to Woodward, the president maintained an odd detachment from the reviews of war policy during this period, turning much of the process over to Hadley. "Let's cut to the chase," Bush told Woodward, "Hadley drove a lot of this."

...

In response to a question about how the White House settled on a troop surge of five brigades after the military leadership in Washington had reluctantly said it could provide two, Bush said: "Okay, I don't know this. I'm not in these meetings, you'll be happy to hear, because I got other things to do."

...

"Casey had long concluded that one big problem with the war was the president himself," Woodward writes. "He later told a colleague in private that he had the impression that Bush reflected the 'radical wing of the Republican Party that kept saying, "Kill the bastards! Kill the bastards! And you'll succeed." ' "

Asked about his interest in body counts, Bush told Woodward: "I asked that on occasion to find out whether or not we're fighting back. Because the perception is that our guys are dying and they're not. Because we don't put out numbers. We don't have a tally. On the other hand, if I'm sitting here watching the casualties come in, I'd at least like to know whether or not our soldiers are fighting."

...

In a critical epilogue assessing the president's performance as commander-in-chief, Woodward concludes that Bush "rarely was the voice of realism on the Iraq war" and "too often failed to lead."

During the interviews with Woodward, the president spoke of the war as part of a re-centering of American power in the Middle East. "And it should be," Bush said. "And the reason it should be: It is the place from which a deadly attack emanated. And it is the place where further deadly attacks could emanate.

The president also conceded: "This war has created a lot of really harsh emotion, out of which comes a lot of harsh rhetoric. One of my failures has been to change the tone in Washington."

Edit: I spoke too soon. It's getting some traction in the media. But they are not talking so much about the surge yet, more about that US was spying on Prime Minister Nouri al-Malaki. This is causing somewhat of a diplomatic scandal:

http://news.google.com/news?ned=us&hl=en&ned=us&ie=UTF-8&ncl=1242514076

[Daiquiri]

Sadly, I cant get behind either of the candidates. I think both choices were equally poor. At work (during our lunch) Ive spoken out against both. I even printed out the letter that the Wasilla resident wrote and took it to work and passed around among those of us who eat together. Im not one-sided on this. Im a registered Republican but Ive voted Democrat before and will probably do so again. As a voter from the state of Illinois, I can rightfully and fairly declare that Obama has done nothing for us in the lower half. Is he from my district? No. Yet I do take umbrage at him claiming that he has helped the state (which I take to mean the WHOLE state!) when he hasnt.

In good conciousness, I cannot vote for Obama. Im leaning toward McCain simply because in these times I feel that we need someone with a military background.

[Morgan Evanar]

You cant hold her pregnant daughter against her; thats ludicrous. (sp?)


Sadly, I cant get behind either of the candidates. I think both choices were equally poor. At work (during our lunch) Ive spoken out against both. I even printed out the letter that the Wasilla resident wrote and took it to work and passed around among those of us who eat together. Im not one-sided on this. Im a registered Republican but Ive voted Democrat before and will probably do so again. As a voter from the state of Illinois, I can rightfully and fairly declare that Obama has done nothing for us in the lower half. Is he from my district? No. Yet I do take umbrage at him claiming that he has helped the state (which I take to mean the WHOLE state!) when he hasnt.

In good conciousness, I cannot vote for Obama. Im leaning toward McCain simply because in these times I feel that we need someone with a military background.He's not exactly brimming with command experience. I fail to see how a military background is going to help us with the big issue: the economy.


Yet I do take umbrage at him claiming that he has helped the state (which I take to mean the WHOLE state!) when he hasnt. No one really seems to help Miami, but that's because the locals are so damned corrupt it's borderline impossible. Besides, you're not in his district, and he did his job by helping his district. You are not his constituency, but he did help part of your state. It's hardly a false statement. So, what do you think he could have done to help your district? I mean, is that the whole rub?

I could make the same claim: Obama has done nothing for my state/district specifically.

A vote for McCain is a vote for the corrupt and broken policies of the past 8 years that got us into the multitude of messes we're in. He's been in lock step with the party 90% of the time. If he dies in office, we'll end up with another "do-er" and not a thinker as our head of state, and that's worked out REAL well.

[Jaime Tomahawk]

http://news.spreadit.org/palin-affairnational-enquirer-palin-affair-rumor/

Surely the National Enquirer isnt right AGAIN????

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/9/5/131718/5054/904/587949

Oh dear, there could be real meat to it....... someone doesnt want something coming out!

If the Enquirer is right..... nah, too juicy to be true

[Yog]

Ok, I am an atheist, but if Sarah Palin is mentioned in those divorce documents... MY GOD...

[Jaime Tomahawk]

Sadly, I cant get behind either of the candidates. I think both choices were equally poor. At work (during our lunch) Ive spoken out against both. I even printed out the letter that the Wasilla resident wrote and took it to work and passed around among those of us who eat together. Im not one-sided on this. Im a registered Republican but Ive voted Democrat before and will probably do so again. As a voter from the state of Illinois, I can rightfully and fairly declare that Obama has done nothing for us in the lower half. Is he from my district? No. Yet I do take umbrage at him claiming that he has helped the state (which I take to mean the WHOLE state!) when he hasnt.

In good conciousness, I cannot vote for Obama. Im leaning toward McCain simply because in these times I feel that we need someone with a military background.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/26563623#26563623

The US economy is going right down the toilet, jobs are rushing overseas, schools decaying, housing becoming worthless, your in two wars with the idiot in charge trying to start a third, Iraq was based on lies....

On all of that, why do the Republican deserve another chance? Why would a military man be able to solve the real economic problems when he admitted he didnt know much about economics?

I don't see why the Republicans should be rewarded for screwing up world diplomacy and the economy. Will the other guy be better? Of course you don't know. But the real question isnt if he's better but why should the guys who threw it down the crapper in the first place and done bugger all to fix it be given another chance?

[Yog]

Edit - never mind, this ain't another bridge to nowhere, but it's another example of lobbyism and large spending on local interest:
http://www.washingtonindependent.com/4579/wasilla-lobbyist-is-also-‘bridge-to-nowhere’-lobbyist

Also, this was pretty entertaining:
Obama on Bill O'Reilly
Part 1:
http://www.foxnews.com/oreilly/?playerId=oreillyhomeplayer&streamingFormat=FLASH&referralObject=3072397&referralPlaylistId=bbeb11095dff273e354ffbd0dfa4c07 0c9e8730b&maven_dartZone=undefined&maven_dartSite=undefinedmaven_referrer=reddit

60 minutes interview with Obama and Biden:
Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7jdzyUhYWo)
Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VL2xAOC7rVo)

[Jedieb]

McCain's speech beat Obama's by 500,000. Very surprising numbers even if the Giants game ended up giving it a strong lead in on NBC instead of competing directly against it.

McCain's convention bounce is going to grow. Obama's RCP lead is now down to 2.6. We'll see where it ends next week. The first debate is on Sept. 26 in Miss. That's the next big event in the race. The next couple of weeks are all about attack ads, talking heads, and dirt digging.

[Daiquiri]

If I proudly say that I never voted for George W, does that redeem me any at all? :lol

[Jaime Tomahawk]

Yes :)

Now as much as Palin has the chance to really cripple mcCain..... I think somethign else has just happened that is far worse.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/9/5/2190/77795/394/588459

Now if I have this right, the two biggest mortgage brokers in the USA are these two. And they have basically gone broke with the Admin forced to do take them over to basically bail them out.

And with some potentially nasty flowon effects.

Frankly, if this is as big as I suspect it is, this is what will blow any Republican chance of victory.

[Mitch]

Hmm, as I work in the mortgage default industry, I can rather safely say that the president has little to do with the mortgage crisis right now.

It has a lot to do with people not reading what they signed, and a WHOLE lot more to do with people not paying their frikkin' bills!

Say what you want, but, honestly, if people even had a SHRED of sense about how money and credit works, most people in foreclosure now wouldn't have gotten there.

Also, I knew about the FNMA and FNMC stuff a month ago. That really isn't big news. We all saw it coming.

[Jedi Master Carr]

McCain's speech beat Obama's by 500,000. Very surprising numbers even if the Giants game ended up giving it a strong lead in on NBC instead of competing directly against it.

McCain's convention bounce is going to grow. Obama's RCP lead is now down to 2.6. We'll see where it ends next week. The first debate is on Sept. 26 in Miss. That's the next big event in the race. The next couple of weeks are all about attack ads, talking heads, and dirt digging.

Well luckily, Mccain's speech was so bad it probably put half of them to sleep.

[Jaime Tomahawk]

Hmm, as I work in the mortgage default industry, I can rather safely say that the president has little to do with the mortgage crisis right now.

It has a lot to do with people not reading what they signed, and a WHOLE lot more to do with people not paying their frikkin' bills!

Say what you want, but, honestly, if people even had a SHRED of sense about how money and credit works, most people in foreclosure now wouldn't have gotten there.
.



Oh so the fact that the Admin let the availible reserve cash reserve be reduced too much has nothing to do with the crisis? Or the lax regulations? Or the 105 million they have both spent on corporate lobbyists to keep the rules as lax as possible? I don't work in the mortgage industry and I was able to dig those dirty facts out in about five seconds.

I can continue if you want. I'm sure I can quite easily find more issues with lax regulations and lobbyists. The reduction of reserve levels to cover bad debts was a sensationally bad idea.


It has a lot to do with people not reading what they signed, and a WHOLE lot more to do with people not paying their frikkin' bills!


There is some truth to that, however it is not the reason why the sub prime sent the market into a meltdown and in the end send the Mac's to the wall when their reserves proved to be too small to cover bad debts, generating huge flow-ons to world markets and generated a credit squeeze.

The first issue is the availibility of low cost credit. The banks 5-7 years ago were awash with it as interest rates were very low and cash easy to come by. This lead to the creation of the sub-prime market as credit rules were lessened.

At the same time, house prices soared to retarded levels, but with the low cost of credit, you could gain access to the credit easier, with generated a postive feedback.

Now that would still be not too much of an issue. In NSW, we had this. Like a normal suburban house? 500K STARTING price. This is no McMansion, it's a normal house on a normal block in a normal suburb. Hell, the POS I live in is worth 350K easy and it's crap. But even then, countries with housing bubbles didnt have such a credit meltdown. The real issue was something else.

The whole sub-prime thing was all about banks not doing due dilligance on the CLIENTS. They gave out, quite bluntly, loads to people who could not pay without doing the proper checks that could have flagged issues with the borrower and prevented the loan from being made int he first place. Considering the USA has some of the laxest regulations about due dilligance and background checks in the OECD, the whole sub prime crisis does indeed have a damn sight more to do about the lax Government regulations on the finance sector. IF the banks who are going bust now were actually forced to do have a tough set of rules who they can and cant borrow to, then this mess would not have started int he first place.

It's funny how countries with actual rules and regualtions just don't have this swirling mass of bad debt. no surprise why that is, for example in Australia where home loans are far greater in average value, the level of foreclosures is lower. The simple point is that banks and non bank lenders must do the checks first to make sure the borrower has the capacity to pay. Sub Prime's did not do this and in fact they were tailored to be loans TO high risk customers that in the main banks should never have touched.

The Subprime market in fact does not even exist in places like Australia as it is unacceptible risk under governance regulations.

It is like you going out to lend more than you can afford to a retard then expect them to pay it back. The retards fault? Not really, its YOURS for not making sure he can pay it back.

That is why most countries have a good set of banking regulations. It's funny how every 15 or so years, there is another banking crisis involving bad debts and under regulation in the USA. Savings and Loans anyone? The triggers to the Great Depression? Yeah, it's happened before. If you dont get your act together, it WILL happen again.

Reference can be made to articles by Ross Gittens, a very well respected journalist with a high expertise in this area. He explains it very well. So in fact the Administration does have quite a lot to do with the current crisis.


Well luckily, Mccain's speech was so bad it probably put half of them to sleep.

I disagree with that assessment. It was very passible. It was designed to gun for Independants and I think it worked okay. It was no game changer, it didnt need to be. I liked it and I'm pretty much a staunch hoper for Obama.

What the rating do show is that the electorate is listening and may even be engaged with what politicians are saying right now. This is an interesting sign I think for Obama - people really ARE looking into how they vote this year for some reason. It probably means that people are hurting int he electorate and they are wanting solutions. It's fertile ground for him.

[Yog]

I would imagine voter registration data has the republicans worried. These are trends of things to come, I think. I include those that are broken down by party affiliation:

Alaska: Alaska: 2,836 Republicans, 2,628 Democrats, 6,825 Independents (no aff.
& all other)
From March 4 to September 4

Arizona: 32,141 Republicans, 68,480 Democrats, 4,359 Other
From January 1 to September 2

California: 46,497 Republicans, 417,793 Democrats, 117,313 Independents
From January to May 19

Colorado: 13,352 Republicans, 66,516 Democrats, 23,437 Independents

Delaware: 676 Republican, 4,428 Democrats, 2,200 Independents
From July 1 to September 1

Florida: 77,196 Republican, 209,422 Democrat, 26,100 Independents
From January to June

Iowa: 7,515 Republicans, 69,301 Democrats, -62,922 Independents
From January to August

Maryland: 4,260 Republicans, 12,338 Democrats, 5,544 Independents
From January to July

Nevada: 1,230 Republicans, 51,457 Democrats, 7,550 Independents
From January to August

New Hampshire: -1,285 Republicans, 1,188 Democrats, 269 Independents
From June 12 to August 18

New York: -1,526 Republicans, 102,559 Democrats, -164 Blanks
From November 1 to March 1

North Carolina: 20,363 Republicans, 171,955 Democrats, 123,605 Unaffiliated
From January 5 to August 30

Oregon: -13,349 Republicans, 122,518 Democrats
From January to July

Pennsylvania: 289 Republicans, 98,137 Democrats, 15,907 Independents (no aff. & all other)
From April 17 to August 25

Wyoming: 1,390 Republicans, 3,409 Democrats, 5,892 Independents
From January to August 16

http://edgeofthewest.wordpress.com/2008/09/04/voter-registration-data/

[Rutabaga]

Also, a lot of people are saying that polling isn't really accurate, because it only includes landlines. No cell phones. And there are so many people that now have only cell phones, no landlines, so it's not getting a true cross-section of opinion. Interesting and fairly valid point.

Now, as for McCain and Palin...when are they going to quit trumpeting the "I said no to the Bridge to Nowhere!", "I'm against earmarks!", and "I sold the state jet on ebay!" stories when they have been PROVEN TO BE FALSE? But that's been the MO of the current administration for the last 8 years...you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes the truth. :shakefist

[Liam Jinn]

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=184111&title=john-mccains-big-acceptance&byDate=true

I thought this was funny, well I thought the whole show was funny last night. But about 5 mins into that video, there's a little comparison of the Bush speech in 2000 and the McCain speech.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Also, a lot of people are saying that polling isn't really accurate, because it only includes landlines. No cell phones. And there are so many people that now have only cell phones, no landlines, so it's not getting a true cross-section of opinion. Interesting and fairly valid point.

Now, as for McCain and Palin...when are they going to quit trumpeting the "I said no to the Bridge to Nowhere!", "I'm against earmarks!", and "I sold the state jet on ebay!" stories when they have been PROVEN TO BE FALSE? But that's been the MO of the current administration for the last 8 years...you repeat a lie often enough, it becomes the truth. :shakefist

Cell phone users do making polling harder to know for certain. It is going to be impossible to guess either way though.

[Yog]

http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=184111&title=john-mccains-big-acceptance&byDate=true
I thought this was funny, well I thought the whole show was funny last night. But about 5 mins into that video, there's a little comparison of the Bush speech in 2000 and the McCain speech.
That was brilliant! :lol

On a different note, you know the McCain campaign is playing Karl Rove tactics when they pull this stunt: McCain Camp ‘Rescues’ Flags From Obama Rally (http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/09/06/mccain-camp-to-chastise-dems-for-discarding-american-flags/)

Which was immediately debunked:
'Thrown Away Flags' Story False, Dem Convention Official Says (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/06/thrown-away-flags-story-f_n_124499.html)

It defies my belief that they are able to send their campaign workers trespassing and stealing material from the Obama campaign, then they have the audacity to proudly proclaim they did it to "save the flags", then making an event mocking and accusing DNC for lack of patriotism. How do the GOP get away with this crap? The media should roast them for this.