Virginia Tech School Attack - more than 30 killed [Archive]

Yog

Apr 16th, 2007, 03:30:06 PM

- apparently, there were two shooting incidents.

- the first shooting occurred around 7:15 AM EDT at West Ambler Johnston Hall, a co-ed dormitory that houses 895 students, where two people were killed and up to four others wounded.

- about two hours later, shooting was reported in a classroom at Norris Hall, an engineering building, one mile away from the first shooting.

- a total number of at least 33 killed reported so far (including the shooter). Number may still rise, as there are a large amount of injured.

- the shooter was wearing a vest covered in clips. He went from classroom to classroom.

- shooter chained the doors to the building to prevent people from getting out.

- the shooter committed suicide inside Norris Hall by a self-inflicted shot to the head. Word is (unconfirmed) he used either two 9 mm. caliber handguns or a 9 mm. caliber handgun and a .22 caliber handgun. The name / identity of the shooter is so far unknown, as he wore no identification.

(Now this next part is just a rumour, very unconfirmed; I read in a Norwegian online newspaper witnesses claimed the shooter had a girlfriend at that school, and the girlfriend is among the killed.)

Timeline of events:
7:15 a.m.: A 9-1-1 call to Virginia Tech Police reports a shooting at West Ambler Johnston Hall, leaving one person dead and another wounded.[18][19]
9:00 a.m.: Shooter opens fire in classroom in Norris Hall, an engineering building.[18]
9:26 a.m.: Emails go out to campus staff and faculty saying there has been a shooting on campus.[4]
9:50 a.m.: An email announcing "A gunman is loose on campus. Stay in buildings until further notice. Stay away from all windows" [sic] is sent to all Virginia Tech email addresses.
10:52 a.m.: Follow up email goes to VTech campus regarding shooting
12:00 p.m.: At a press conference, authorities said there may have been more than 21 people killed and 28 injured.[20]
2:30 p.m.: AP reports at least 31 killed, including gunman.
3:40 p.m.: Virginia Tech confirms 22 dead.
4:01 p.m.: President Bush speaks from the White House regarding the shooting.[21]
4:40 p.m.: The school holds a press conference with updates on the day's events.[1]
4:42 p.m: Virginia Tech confirms 33 dead.[1]
5:15 p.m: As scheduled, a vigil is held for the victims.

Yog

Apr 16th, 2007, 03:41:29 PM

AIM conversation posted on another forum:

Aim convo with my brother:

ME (1:08:03 PM): so he came into your class?
Bro(1:08:08 PM): yeah
Bro(1:08:17 PM): i didnt think there was any way id live
Bro(1:08:52 PM): he finally left and me and the one other guy that wasnt shot ran to the door and held it shut
Bro(1:09:04 PM): and he tried to come back in and was shooting through the door
me(1:09:27 PM): holy ****
me(1:09:48 PM): what kind of gun was it
Bro(1:09:55 PM): pistol
Me(1:09:52 PM): and did he line people up
Bro(1:10:08 PM): no just shooting at people on the ground

Part 2:

me(1:11:34 PM): do you think it was random
bro(1:12:57 PM): i dont know
Me(1:14:03 PM): so what did you do then
bro(1:14:21 PM): i just started helping people that were bleeding
Me(1:14:39 PM): my god
Me(1:17:17 PM): and then what
Me(1:17:25 PM): sorry if you dont want to talk about it
Me(1:17:33 PM): everyone wants to know what happened
bro(1:18:15 PM): its fine
Me(1:18:40 PM): so did the cops arrive quickly or did you call them or what
bro(1:19:08 PM): yeah
bro(1:19:38 PM): we called

Part 3:
Bro (1:32:09 PM): well a girl wasnt shot
Bro (1:32:16 PM): and then the guy was a guy that sat near me
Bro (1:32:21 PM): but then he got hit in the arm
Bro (1:32:29 PM): when he was shooting through the door

Loklorien s'Ilancy

Apr 16th, 2007, 03:52:17 PM

7:15 a.m.: A 9-1-1 call to Virginia Tech Police reports a shooting at West Ambler Johnston Hall, leaving one person dead and another wounded.[18][19]

From what I read at SA, the RA was killed, and the girlfriend wounded. If the GF did end up dying, that's terrible.

Supposedly the GF had cheated on the shooter, so who knows.

I also read that Jack Thompson and Fred Phelps have already jumped on this thing like hyenas. The crap I've already read about what they've said so far is disgusting.

Aurelias Kazaar

Apr 16th, 2007, 04:04:03 PM

I also read that Jack Thompson and Fred Phelps have already jumped on this thing like hyenas. The crap I've already read about what they've said so far is disgusting.

And they should be treated as such.

Like crap. Screw those two (and those of their ilk; on both sides of the spectrum), they're fringe people who pander for attention.

Farque 'em.

Yog

Apr 16th, 2007, 04:10:17 PM

From what I read at SA, the RA was killed, and the girlfriend wounded. If the GF did end up dying, that's terrible.

CNN says two died at the first site, not sure how updated it is:
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/04/16/vtech.shooting/index.html

I also read that Jack Thompson and Fred Phelps have already jumped on this thing like hyenas. The crap I've already read about what they've said so far is disgusting.

Apparently, Jack Thompson was on Fox News earlier talking about the effects of violent video games, he specifically blamed GTA: Vice City. :rolleyes

CounterStrike: Half-Life is also supposed to be bad, according to him.

No one knows what the heck is going on excactly, and we have already people trying to win political points on this tragedy.

Loklorien s'Ilancy

Apr 16th, 2007, 04:18:02 PM

... and we have already people trying to win political points on this tragedy.

This is pretty much the reason that I stay away from the news channels and get my news from SA.

With VT having so many problems in the last two semesters due to bombthreats (not two weeks ago) and nutjobs running around campus shooting people (beginning of last semester), you'd think that VT administration would be more on the ball.

I really do believe that telling those kids to stay in class after the first shooting was what let this get so bad.

Ryan Pode

Apr 16th, 2007, 04:26:04 PM

This is pretty much the reason that I stay away from the news channels and get my news from SA.

With VT having so many problems in the last two semesters due to bombthreats (not two weeks ago) and nutjobs running around campus shooting people (beginning of last semester), you'd think that VT administration would be more on the ball.

I really do believe that telling those kids to stay in class after the first shooting was what let this get so bad.

The guy in august didn't hurt anyone. He was just an escaped murderer with no shoes on.

Loklorien s'Ilancy

Apr 16th, 2007, 04:30:39 PM

Even if he didn't hurt anyone, the track record up until now should have helped to galvanize the decision-making process.

Yog

Apr 16th, 2007, 04:41:08 PM

I really do believe that telling those kids to stay in class after the first shooting was what let this get so bad.

It seems so. There was a two hour window between the shootings, which should have plenty of time to get wheels in motion, both on the part of police and school administration. Although, it's still too early to lay blame on anything or anyone at this point.

Loklorien s'Ilancy

Apr 16th, 2007, 04:47:25 PM

So very true. Pointing fingers and playing the blame game is only going to hinder any sort of objective information gathering.

Hindsight is always 20/20 and I'm certainly not going to blame the VT administration for those deaths, but there were measures that could've been taken that didn't amount to "stay in class and wait to get shot".

Aurelias Kazaar

Apr 16th, 2007, 04:47:46 PM

I think every college (from Division-I to Division-II to Community College to trade school) needs to take steps to keep this type of thing from happening again.

If it means making sure the on-campus police officers aren't rejects from 'Police Academy' then do so. If it means you have to pay them more to get more qualified people in then do so. There's this 'stigma' when it comes to university cops which are only going to stick around, unless steps are taking. I'm not talking about having a SWAT team, but jeez louise.

Also if it means being quicker with figuring out information (especially since someone made bomb threats to Va Tech) then do so.

I know, saying and doing are two different things, but still...I agree with thinking objectively and then figure out what to do.

CMJ

Apr 16th, 2007, 04:48:09 PM

We are all Hokies today. :((

Lilaena De'Ville

Apr 16th, 2007, 04:55:31 PM

Heard about this all day on talk radio - though I must say its a little annoying to have 24/7 coverage of "so what might have happened?" when there aren't any confirmed facts.

32 students confirmed dead, and the shooter, two at the residence hall, and 30 at Norris hall. The fact that the student body was warned via email and the school wasn't locked down after the first shooting at 7 am is incredible to me. The shooter had left the scene and while they assumed he'd left the campus, obviously he hadn't, and they had no idea where he was.

A horrible tragedy.

The worst shooting rampage in American history, and in a place where it is not legal for law abiding citizens to carry concealed weapons. Ever wonder why shootings always seem to take place where people aren't going to be carrying guns?

The Columbine shootings killed only 13 students.

Before Monday, the deadliest campus shooting in US history took place in 1966 at the University of Texas, where Charles Whitman climbed to the 28th-floor observation deck of a clock tower and opened fire. He killed 16 people before he was gunned down by police.

There are at least another 30 people wounded. >_<

Yog

Apr 16th, 2007, 05:00:58 PM

There is some video footage taken from a mobile phone. No actual visuals of what is going on, just some people walking on campus, but the audio is creepy.

At first, everything seems quiet, then some gunshots. Someone yells "Gunfire!!". Some more yelling and gunshots, until a shot goes off close "Bang", then someone is screaming "DIE!! DIE!!" (I assume this is the shooter?).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yikfSPAxf6I

Miranda Tarkin

Apr 16th, 2007, 05:05:58 PM

Wow I need to learn how to read. You said another forum >_>

Anyway, :(

Jedi Master Carr

Apr 16th, 2007, 05:06:52 PM

Heard about this all day on talk radio - though I must say its a little annoying to have 24/7 coverage of "so what might have happened?" when there aren't any confirmed facts.

32 students confirmed dead, and the shooter, two at the residence hall, and 30 at Norris hall. The fact that the student body was warned via email and the school wasn't locked down after the first shooting at 7 am is incredible to me. The shooter had left the scene and while they assumed he'd left the campus, obviously he hadn't, and they had no idea where he was.

A horrible tragedy.

The worst shooting rampage in American history, and in a place where it is not legal for law abiding citizens to carry concealed weapons. Ever wonder why shootings always seem to take place where people aren't going to be carrying guns?

The Columbine shootings killed only 13 students.

There are at least another 30 people wounded. >_<

I think is an awful tragedy. Have to wait on the circumstances, I personally think the Police dropped the ball. They should have cancelled classes after the first shooting. Also agree with Aurelias, college campuses need better security. At least better trained cops. Also I disagree with you about people having concealled weapons. That beckons too much to me to the Old West were everybody was packing. I think that would just make things worse. I think in this case the problems lay with the individual and the authorites slow action in dealing with him.

Lilaena De'Ville

Apr 16th, 2007, 05:13:39 PM

I dont' know about you, but I'd be less likely to try to shoot people when I know that they could be shooting back at me. Its our second amendment right to bear arms.

Figrin D'an

Apr 16th, 2007, 05:18:37 PM

I dont' know about you, but I'd be less likely to try to shoot people when I know that they could be shooting back at me. Its our second amendment right to bear arms.

You're assuming that each person whom has such thoughts is of a rational state of mind. People like today's shooter at Va Tech, the Columbine shooters, Charles Whitman, etc, were not in such a frame of mind. They were prepared to kill and to die themselves, steeling themselves to the reality of their fates. A rage-filled person prepared to die isn't going to worry about whom around them may or may not be armed.

I'm reasonably supportive of second amendment rights, but a campus of armed college students isn't exactly the most rational solution to such things IMO.

CMJ

Apr 16th, 2007, 05:19:59 PM

I'm sorry....I'm not up for college kids carrying guns to class Holly.

Loklorien s'Ilancy

Apr 16th, 2007, 05:26:28 PM

Whatever.

Everyone knows it's because of porn and violent movies and videogames - oh heavens let's not forget the video games! Counterstrike, Halo, Half-Life, GTA, the list goes on!

Oh, and the homosexuals too. They're the reason this stuff is going on these days; God is punishing us and letting our schools get shot up, am I right, guys?

... guys?

Yog

Apr 16th, 2007, 05:31:04 PM

I think this was just a sick / enraged individual, and it's probably pointless looking at external factors for his actions. He might had a bad childhood growing up or something, but if that was the case, you need to look at the total picture.

CMJ

Apr 16th, 2007, 05:36:42 PM

Word is it was a jilted ex-boyfriend. If that's the case not much can really be done as far as warning signs. Guy has his girlfriend break up with him and loses his freaking mind.

Jedi Master Carr

Apr 16th, 2007, 05:41:16 PM

I heard that too that is so strange. There must have been something wrong with him to do that. It will take days for the police to sort this out because I heard he had no id on him and the gunshot wound to his face made him unrecognizable. Right now I feel more for the victims and their familes, it is an awful event.

Lilaena De'Ville

Apr 16th, 2007, 06:23:44 PM

I'm sorry....I'm not up for college kids carrying guns to class Holly.
If they've done the certification necessary, I don't have anything against it. At least make it legal for faculty to carry if they want to. Just one concerned citizen/faculty member/student with a concealed carry permit and a gun could have saved dozens of lives this morning, and you can't tell me I'm wrong about that.

Of course you're not going to stop the crazies from coming, but it might stop some. And those that do come anyway could be stopped before they kill, or before they kill say, 32 people.

CMJ

Apr 16th, 2007, 06:27:12 PM

If they've done the certification necessary, I don't have anything against it. At least make it legal for faculty to carry if they want to. Just one concerned citizen/faculty member/student with a concealed carry permit and a gun could have saved dozens of lives this morning, and you can't tell me I'm wrong about that.

Sure I can. Friendly fire happens in war and those soldiers are TRAINED for combat situations. You really think under fire there isn't the possibility that some kid with a gun might shoot classmates as he's trying to get the lunatic?

Droo

Apr 16th, 2007, 06:28:43 PM

I dont' know about you, but I'd be less likely to try to shoot people when I know that they could be shooting back at me. Its our second amendment right to bear arms.

There is logic to what you're saying here but I can't help but picture a saloon in the wild west in place of a school, each student eyeing the other up suspiciously over their lunches, waiting to make that one final quick draw.

But in all seriousness, I don't think arming up students is the answer, mainly because of what Figrin said: the killer was ready to die, how and when was of no consequence to him as long as he took others down with him. Secondly, I'm all for self-defense but these are kids going to school to learn and see their friends. I find it a travesty that we should even have to think about the day when parents kiss their children good-bye and say "Have a nice day in school, sweetie, don't forget your gun." There should be greater protection in place and by the sounds of it, a lot more could've been done to avoid this tragedy. It's a disgrace the fatality toll is so high.

Park Kraken

Apr 16th, 2007, 06:37:29 PM

Heard about this when I woke up this afternoon. A sad, sad tragedy, indeed.

A couple of points though really quick here.

Talk about evacuating the classrooms, well once the second string of shootings started I believe it was too late as the gunman had chained the doors out of the building shut. If students had tried to run out then it would have been like shooting fish in a barrel.

Also, to S'Ils sarcastic blame it on the homosexuals comment, that feels a little off base, mainly because of the hate crime that recently happened down here in my county in regards to a gay student being killed.

A third point here, is that in that situation, I would think having all the students rush the gunman wouldn't be as bad as a plan as originally thought when trying to deal with these gunmen. I'd much rather rush a guy than let him walk up to me and shoot me while I'm crouching below my desk with my hands over my heads.

Ehh, but I digress. Again, a terrible tragedy for all. :(

Loklorien s'Ilancy

Apr 16th, 2007, 06:38:56 PM

ok, less gun control issues and more information of the events, plz.

edit - Kraken, go read about Fred Phelps and fine tune your sarcasm meter just a smidge.

Yog

Apr 16th, 2007, 06:41:48 PM

I watched Fox News the last 30 minutes or so. The majority of the time, its been O'Reilly complaining about Rosy O'Donald and his other pet peeves. Apperently, the major news story of the day in his eyes :rolleyes

Bloodcrest

Apr 16th, 2007, 06:43:13 PM

As far as the identity is concerned, couldn't one conceivably find out the identity of the girlfriend and then question students, perhaps family members as to the identity of the ex-boyfriend? Just a thought and one I'm sure they've thought of.

Anyways, anyone who goes to a school and opens fire is obviously mentally unstable. I could see someone in a rage going to a school and shooting the one or two people who make them angry (not that I think it's okay to do that), but for someone to 'in a rage' go to a college and kill 30+ people is simply unreasonable. I think there must have been something else to it.

Loklorien s'Ilancy

Apr 16th, 2007, 06:43:59 PM

It'll be interesting to see Colbert's and Stewart's take on this.

Ryan Pode

Apr 16th, 2007, 06:46:40 PM

I don't think they will touch it. Other than a moment in silence.

Yog

Apr 16th, 2007, 06:57:22 PM

As far as the identity is concerned, couldn't one conceivably find out the identity of the girlfriend and then question students, perhaps family members as to the identity of the ex-boyfriend? Just a thought and one I'm sure they've thought of.

The police knows the identity now, they just did not released any details who it is. A Chicago newspaper revealed the shooter being a 24 year old Chinese. He was on a student Visa (not student at Virgina Tech). Allegedly he made the bomb threats last week to test campus security

Talk about evacuating the classrooms, well once the second string of shootings started I believe it was too late as the gunman had chained the doors out of the building shut. If students had tried to run out then it would have been like shooting fish in a barrel.

The second string of shooting was in an entirely different area of the campus 2 hours later. Apparently, there were no actions taken, cause they believed this was a single isolated incidence, and there would be no further shootings (even though the shooter was still on the lose!).

I would think having all the students rush the gunman wouldn't be as bad as a plan as originally thought when trying to deal with these gunmen. I'd much rather rush a guy than let him walk up to me and shoot me while I'm crouching below my desk with my hands over my heads.

Maybe, but its hard to judge in the heat of the moment. When there are gunshots, and someone with a gun enters a room. The natural reaction for most people is to seek cover and try not provoke.

Update: on identity of shooter

Loklorien s'Ilancy

Apr 16th, 2007, 07:09:14 PM

Maybe, but its hard to judge in the heat of the moment. When there are gunshots, and someone with a gun enters a room. The natural reaction for most people is to seek cover and try not provoke.

I read somewhere that a person's mindset is 25% fight, 25% flight, and 50% freeze. And sadly, this was what damned those who died. The gunman simply began shooting at those who'd hit the ground.

And if you listen to the gunshots in the video, there is one, a pause, and then more in pretty dang uniform succession. That is what we call a shooting spree, and you're lucky if you have 30 seconds to decide what to do. Those that froze and ducked for cover were sitting ducks and therefore shot at.

Yog

Apr 16th, 2007, 07:18:32 PM

And if you listen to the gunshots in the video, there is one, a pause, and then more in pretty dang uniform succession. That is what we call a shooting spree, and you're lucky if you have 30 seconds to decide what to do. Those that froze and ducked for cover were sitting ducks and therefore shot at.

Well, yes, my point is it's very easy to sit here in hindsight saying what could have been done in that situation. I would imagine it's pretty big mental barrier throwing yourself at someone armed with a gun, not to mention an organised rush. Whitnesses said they pretty much had no choice other than sitting there as sitting ducks or jump out a window (which saved some).

Zem-El Vymes

Apr 16th, 2007, 07:27:20 PM

There is logic to what you're saying here but I can't help but picture a saloon in the wild west in place of a school, each student eyeing the other up suspiciously over their lunches, waiting to make that one final quick draw.

But in all seriousness, I don't think arming up students is the answer, mainly because of what Figrin said: the killer was ready to die, how and when was of no consequence to him as long as he took others down with him. Secondly, I'm all for self-defense but these are kids going to school to learn and see their friends. I find it a travesty that we should even have to think about the day when parents kiss their children good-bye and say "Have a nice day in school, sweetie, don't forget your gun." There should be greater protection in place and by the sounds of it, a lot more could've been done to avoid this tragedy. It's a disgrace the fatality toll is so high.

This isn't suggesting something new or novel. The vast majority of all places in the United States allow citizens to carry concealed weapons on their person, and you'll be hard pressed to find anything near correlation to suggest it's a sympathetic contributor to homicide rates.

It may suck to think about enabling personal defense on a daily basis, but I do it every day, and even when it's not convenient. I carried at college, because college still is no bastion of safety. Hell, the house next to mine got a molotov cocktail in it. That changes your perceptions very quickly.

Droo

Apr 16th, 2007, 07:32:32 PM

This isn't suggesting something new or novel.

I wasn't implying for a moment that it is, I'm well aware of your constitutional rights concerning firearms and that isn't an issue for me. My point was that, as you said, college is no bastion of safety and it's just sad that the students should be expected to fend for themselves as though on the front lines of the Bulge when their minds should be happily occupied by their studies.

Zem-El Vymes

Apr 16th, 2007, 07:42:48 PM

Yes, but this admonishment can be extended to all manner of activities, no matter how unassuming, in which violence is a potential threat.

I mean yeah, it really sucks to have people up and murdered, and yeah, it makes it a little extra poignant and heart-wrenching when it happens in unlikely places like schools, churches, etc. I know that intimately. As awful as that perception is, I still choose, and that choice is important.

Yog

Apr 16th, 2007, 07:43:35 PM

The vast majority of all places in the United States allow citizens to carry concealed weapons on their person

It's not a question of statistics, even though personally, I lean to the theory that gun related incidents in schools would increase in such a scenario. Its a psychological issue. Do you WANT have a development where more and more people wear concealed guns? I would not feel comfortable at a school where the students wear guns. It's a more consistant distress than dealing with the remote possibility some lunatic might strike.

Lilaena De'Ville

Apr 16th, 2007, 07:48:20 PM

Well, the guns are concealed. Its not like Charley's classmates were hyper-aware he was carrying a weapon. And in Oregon and Washington it is legal to carry concealed weapons and there is not a hyper-awareness/paranoia in the supermarkets that everyone might be concealing a weapon.

You only get that creepy feeling down the back of your neck when people around you start acting erratically. Most of us go through life blissfully unaware of just about everything around us, and I don't see that changing, even though it should.

And isn't it legal in Switzerland for everyone to carry weapons, and they do? You never hear about this sort of stuff going down in Switzerland. ;) /this may or may not be true

Zem-El Vymes

Apr 16th, 2007, 07:53:48 PM

It's not a question of statistics, even though personally, I lean to the theory that gun related incidents in schools would increase in such a scenario. Its a psychological issue. Do you WANT have a development where more and more people wear concealed guns? I would not feel comfortable at a school where the students wear guns. It's a more consistant distress than dealing with the remote possibility some lunatic might strike.

Yes, I do. When I see the vast majority of spree killings taking place in areas that are either legally prohibiting civilian carry or effectively administering the prospect away (ie, on the job) it makes a rather compelling case.

It's not for everybody and after five years of carry, I will be the first to tell you. It's as big of a lifestyle change as anything, but the people who are willing to take the time, money, and effort to put into looking after the personal repsonsibility of personal protection should be allowed to do so at will.

Ryan Pode

Apr 16th, 2007, 08:19:11 PM

In most college dorms they prohibit possession of firearms. If you're off-campus that's fine. But on campus, not so much.

Yog

Apr 16th, 2007, 08:20:32 PM

And isn't it legal in Switzerland for everyone to carry weapons, and they do? You never hear about this sort of stuff going down in Switzerland. ;) /this may or may not be true

From an admittedly very biased site:

Switzerland: Opponents of gun control often use Switzerland as evidence that access to guns is not linked to crime or violence. They argue that since virtually all adult males are members of the army and have military weapons, there is nearly universal access to deadly weapons yet few gun-related problems in Switzerland. However, Swiss criminologist Martin Killias, of the Université de Lausanne, argues that the rate of households with firearms is actually comparable to that of Canada (27.2%). There is strict screening of army officers and ammunition is stored in sealed boxes and inspected regularly. Despite these controls, Switzerland has rates of gun suicide second only to the US among the countries Killias surveyed and a gun murder rate comparable to Canada's. Although firearms regulations in Switzerland is fragmented and controlled at the regional level, wide ranging reforms are being undertaken to establish national standards.

http://www.guncontrol.ca/Content/international.html

I am not sure how accurate the data is on that site, but it's interesting to note USA with their high density of guns top lists for gun related violence.

Here is another study (should be less biased):
http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=6166

Zem-El Vymes

Apr 16th, 2007, 08:36:23 PM

Switzerland did have a fairly high profile spree shooting incident a few years back, fyi. The citizen-conscript thing is interesting, but I don't think their civilian ownership even exceeds the Scandinavian states, which are rather gun friendly all things considered.

Also, is suicide data even pertinent to a discussion of violence trends? Yes, it's a violent end at one's own hands, but it is tactically irrelevant and doesn't correlate well at all with the trends and motives behind homicides.

I'm just asking, it's never seemed like more than a red herring in these discussions.

Morgan Evanar

Apr 16th, 2007, 08:37:33 PM

Lilaena De'Ville

Apr 16th, 2007, 08:40:46 PM

Knives might even be more dangerous, just because they're silent and perceived as less of a threat than a gun.

Zem-El Vymes

Apr 16th, 2007, 08:48:09 PM

Knives are as deadly as they are because even a laceration on an apparently non-critical part of the body can be fatal in seconds. A firearm doesn't generally work that way.

This is getting off topic though.

Lilaena De'Ville

Apr 16th, 2007, 08:53:37 PM

True - are there any new developments on the shooting? Are the two incidents for sure related? Occam's Razor says they are, but has that been confirmed?

Zem-El Vymes

Apr 16th, 2007, 08:57:31 PM

I'm waiting to see the handguns used. I've heard two 9mm's.

Ryan Pode

Apr 16th, 2007, 09:07:14 PM

I've heard a 9mm and a .22 cal handgun.

Zem-El Vymes

Apr 16th, 2007, 09:18:39 PM

Just heard that.

CMJ

Apr 16th, 2007, 09:21:08 PM

I'm worried it's gonna lead to entire campuses being fenced off, and metal detectors at every building. I'd hate to see that...college isn't supposed to be a prison.

Zem-El Vymes

Apr 16th, 2007, 09:25:42 PM

Yeah, that would be a damn shame. College, academia aside, relies on it's cultural freedom to be what it is.

Yog

Apr 16th, 2007, 09:58:59 PM

If you don't mind terribly, I'd like to adress a few comments, since they were adressed to me. This topic should really not be about gun regulations though, that should be a different topic. If you like, we could discuss it in more depth at a later time. This thread is about news updates to the Virginia Tech Shool Attack.

Switzerland did have a fairly high profile spree shooting incident a few years back, fyi. The citizen-conscript thing is interesting, but I don't think their civilian ownership even exceeds the Scandinavian states, which are rather gun friendly all things considered.

That depends how you look at it. We have a citizen-conscript thing going on here (in Norway, as well as in the other Scandinavian countries), but it's more limited and organised through the military, its called the homefront / civil front. Basically, a fraction of our population goes to military training a few times a year. They have an AG3 automatic rifle hidden in their closet or some other concealed location in their home. It's a bit of an anachronistic preparation practice from the cold war. In case an enemy army (say the russians) were to invade us, we would have a substantial force ready to fight a guerilla war, until our NATO allies comes to aid us. I don't agree with this practice for two reasons: 1. It's not fitting the security situation (there are no likely invaders.. russians are our friends now). 2. A disturbing amount of brutal gun violence were related to the use of these homefront weapons.

There is also a substantial amount of people who got guns for hunting. And then there are those being in shooting clubs, shooting competitively, collectors, shooting for fun etc. But here is a major cultural difference to america: We don't use guns as means of protection. And we don't wear guns concealed on the street. Heck, even our police is unarmed. It's an entirely different mentality and cultural approach to guns. If someone says "it's my constitutional right to wear a gun!", he would be viewed as an utter loonie.

Also, is suicide data even pertinent to a discussion of violence trends? Yes, it's a violent end at one's own hands, but it is tactically irrelevant and doesn't correlate well at all with the trends and motives behind homicides.

I am not suggesting there is a link between amount of guns and violence in general. It's far more complex than that. The rate of violence in general is more likely linked to cultural frictions, powerty and society etc. I do think though, there is a link between easy accessibility of guns and gun deaths. If someone wants to kill some, it's very convenient to do with a gun, and the result is frequently fatal.

I think you need to look at both sets of data (both homicides and suicides) and compare it with other data to understand what is going on in context. If you have a high rate of violence, high density of guns, and a culture that promotes wide use of guns (most specifically, as a means of killing people), it's logical to think it would lead to a high number of homicides.

Why? Someone could crash their car into while walking next to a street at any moment without warning and you'd be very dead. Guns make it really easy, but hell, what about a knife? Anything could kill you almost any time.

I'm not buying it.

You point it out yourself. Guns makes it very easy to kill someone. In fact, that's their intended design. You would not have 32 deaths today if he was just equipped with a knife or just his fists. Note, I am no fan of concealed knives either..

Knives might even be more dangerous, just because they're silent and perceived as less of a threat than a gun.

They are far less fatal in general though. I favor my chances being attacked by someone with a knife over someone armed with a gun. I might have the option to evade, run etc.

Also note: I am not a gun hater. In fact, I rather enjoyed shooting with them the times I had the opportunity to (sports and fun). As much as I love that, I would definitely not want to have people wearing them on the streets. There should be a balance on the factor of utility / fun on one side, and risks you put on society.

Yog

Apr 16th, 2007, 10:19:24 PM

Some details / background on the motive here:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=449047&in_page_id=1770

First shooting victim named as Ryan Clark

This is the student who could have sparked the worst school shooting in US history.

Ryan Clark, 20, was identified as the first male victim of the gunman who went on the rampage at Virginia Tech killing 32 people. Reports in the US suggest the gunman was involved in an argument with his girlfriend and stormed out of the dormitory building. A counsellor was called to calm the situation at the West Ambler dormitory. The gunman returned at 7.15am and shot Clark and his girlfriend.

It is not known if Clark was involved with the girl but one theory is that he may have thought he was involved with his girlfriend.

One theory is that the gunman carried out the rampage after he discovered his girlfriend had been cheating on him.

The parents of Clark, who is from the town of Martinez in Georgia, were told their son had died in a telephone call from the coroner in the town of compiling the list of dead from the massacre.

Stan and Letitie Clark were being comforted by friends and family last night at their home as the investigation into the massacre continued.

Clark, who has a twin brother, was an officer in the college's army reserve unit.

Yog

Apr 16th, 2007, 10:37:06 PM

Student survives by playing dead:

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/04/16/vtech.shooting/index.html

Sheehan described the gunman -- who later shot and killed himself according to police -- as a young man wearing a short-sleeved tan shirt and black ammunition vest.

"He seemed very thorough about it -- getting almost everyone down -- I pretended to be dead," she said.

"He was very silent," said Sheehan, one of only four students in her 25-student German class who were not shot.

The gunman left but returned in about 30 seconds. "I guess he heard us still talking," said Sheehan.

"We forced ourselves against the door so he couldn't come in again, because the door would not lock."

The man tried three more times to force his way in and then began firing through the door, she said.

Jedi Master Carr

Apr 16th, 2007, 11:01:31 PM

Khendon Sevon

Apr 16th, 2007, 11:19:18 PM

This really won't have an impact on colleges. You're not going to see metal detectors, razor fences, or searches or anything crazy.

Why? Because colleges aren't high schools. Colleges are businesses. They want to attract potential students.

One of the reasons I didn't apply to Columbia was because of the campus. It's blockaded at its entrances and if you take the wrong subway (as my sister and I did when she was bringing me there) you end up in a bad part of town. So, I went across the hudson and found a school thats location fit me better.

There you have it. If Stevens suddenly required metal detectors I'd transfer somewhere else. NJIT is in Newark (often considered a bad city) and they don't even have such extreme precautions. I'm sure there are places in worse-off areas that are doing just fine.

This is just a random, sad event. It's the same as an office worker suddenly showing up with an assault rifle to work. It's tough to predict and prevent. You just have to go to work every day and deal with it. Security measures would only force employees to switch jobs (unless we're talking military/security/etc companies... then I guess you do have strong security measures, eh? But, that's different. It's not to protect against employees going insane usually).

Wyl Staedtler

Apr 17th, 2007, 12:25:56 AM

My boss (and roommate) went to Virginia Tech and so we closed our clinic today as he has friends and relatives attending right now and was frantically phoning to get info. This is awful. :(

Park Kraken

Apr 17th, 2007, 12:26:33 AM

Turbogeek

Apr 17th, 2007, 05:42:39 AM

About the only thing that would have limited the damage here, you can't always prevent something from happening, but maybe if there was some kind of system in place, like a lockdown facility, deadbolts on doors and etc., they said they couldn't lock the doors from classroom to prevent him from getting in.

Or more likely, it just locks the students in with the gunman and give them no place to run. Hmmm, that sounds good... ummm... yes actually, that actually could be rather a problem!

Maybe modify the fire sprinklers to emit laughing gas in case of them detecting gun powder instead of smoke. Or a knock out gas. But that's completly off the wall and too susceptible to pranks I would think.
And in a world without gasmasks and respirators, it could work too. But we dont live in said world.

The simple, short and correct answer is as per usual in these situations is that every so called solution or method aimed at stopping or diluting the effects of such sprees inspired by human thought will never work. Gun control will not work. More guns will not work. More security or half baked ideas will not work. Withdrawing one's children's from society or school will not work. Blithely blaming video games or the homosexuals does not work and reveals even more in fact the true root reasons of such incidents, for within the lies of Jack Thompson and the Anti-Christ that is Fred Phelps (and make no mistake, Fred Phelps is no man of God and his words are poison and will be rejected by the Lord), the real problems lie.

If a human does not have something within him or her that counters the rage, hatred and deceptions of this world, if there is no love and peace within a person's soul, then things like today will happen again and again and again. The real solutions are hard and if we look at ourselves, we find that we all fall far short and within that, therein lies why we kill and harm.

The answers are not easy and our politicans are too gutless to say them out loud, going instead for 30 second sound bytes that sound good in the media. Our churches are too out of step with what humans need and so few have promoted the truth about what some guy got nailed to a tree for 2000 years ago. If that truth - which is something that no matter what your beliefs are, atheist, hindu, Moslem or screaming idiot can agree on - about loving thy neigbour was put in the place of all men's heart and all truly believed it..... I suspect the world would be a much better place.

The world is a terrible place. It is filled with greed, anger, violence and lusts and thence as a result this entire world is lost and while it remains lost, there will continue to be such acts like Virgina Tech over and over and over again. There is no solution that will work, except one that works within Men and wonen's hearts, gives hope in the darkness and leads us to true peace.
I dont hold my breath it'll ever happen tho. Certainly not while we have the money changers, Pharasees and whores in charge of our government, our media and our corporations leads us all astray from the truth of it all. And I dare say our churches too because it's always been this way and I'm afraid it always will. Instead of doing and saying what they do, they should be proclaiming the gospel and also the message within that will truly answer what is wrong with society and the real, extremely tough but necessary answers that most, if not just about all of us will not like to hear, but needs to be said and understood.

As I said, tho, that doesnt mean religion. It's the prinicples all men should aspire to, wether you believe or not. I write this however because I do believe in Christ and thence I cant really be honest without stating my bias that my heart has and also because I am a terribly cynical bastard who just doesnt think this world will ever get it right inthe first place, with or without the Lord.

Loklorien s'Ilancy

Apr 17th, 2007, 06:39:34 AM

Well, yes, my point is it's very easy to sit here in hindsight saying what could have been done in that situation. I would imagine it's pretty big mental barrier throwing yourself at someone armed with a gun, not to mention an organised rush. Whitnesses said they pretty much had no choice other than sitting there as sitting ducks or jump out a window (which saved some).

My bad ^_^; I wasn't really directing that at you specifically; it was more of an all-encompassing 'you' meant for everyone.

Park Kraken

Apr 17th, 2007, 06:42:05 AM

Or more likely, it just locks the students in with the gunman and give them no place to run. Hmmm, that sounds good... ummm... yes actually, that actually could be rather a problem!

Well, there are always the windows to jump out of.

But while it may doom the students within one classroom, it would spare the students in the other rooms. From what I read about this attack, he went through several classrooms, rather than staying in the same one.

And in this case, they wouldn't have had anywhere to run with the doors leading outside being chained shut in advance by the gunman.

Well, yes, my point is it's very easy to sit here in hindsight saying what could have been done in that situation. I would imagine it's pretty big mental barrier throwing yourself at someone armed with a gun, not to mention an organised rush. Whitnesses said they pretty much had no choice other than sitting there as sitting ducks or jump out a window (which saved some).

Well, after thinking it over, I may not rush a gunman, but I sure wouldn't sit still either. My most likely course of action would be dancing around or hiding behind a desk while throwing heavy and/or pointy objects at said gunman.

Loklorien s'Ilancy

Apr 17th, 2007, 06:53:46 AM

A stapler or what-have-you isn't going to do much against a .9mm or even a .22. Seriously, your best bet would be to find yourself somewhere to hole up that is reasonably secure, and barricade yourself in.

Hell, there were students jumping from the fourth story windows for their own self-preservation; that's that 25% flight mindset I was talking about earlier kicking in.

Thing is though, you can certainly imagine/daydream/fantasize about what you'd do in such a situation, but until you're actually in it, you'll simply never know.

Park Kraken

Apr 17th, 2007, 07:11:01 AM

Ah, if your in a chemical lab, maybe you can throw something into his face.

But I'd prefer not to find myself in that situation.

Loklorien s'Ilancy

Apr 17th, 2007, 07:15:50 AM

Something to make you all lose a little faith in humanity:

Jack Thompson on MSNBC:
"He trained on Postal 2, just like with that Red Lake kid who trained on Vice City to get his heart rate down, he did this before... Klebold and Harris trained on the game Doom. Robert Schteinhauser trained on Counter-Strike: Half Life, and he dressed up as the hero in the game. What they'll have to do is seize the shooter's computer, and the one common denominator was a mass murder game that allows them to be more efficient."

"The reason why the military uses video games is to teach scenarios and killing methodologies to our soldiers, so that's two sides of the coin. For 300 years, we had guns in our schools so the kids could take food for the family. Now we have games that show kids it's glamorous to kill and how to kill. He calmly killed people efficiently. When you rehearse these things, the more you're gonna do it."

And something to bring it back:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liviu_Librescu

Khendon Sevon

Apr 17th, 2007, 07:25:27 AM

Jack Thompson is a buffoon. It's a well known fact that he is. Indeed, Florida’s bar association is seeking sanctions against him.

If video games made people violent, it would be the developers and testers who do the shooting. They have to play the games over, and over, and over hundreds upon thousands of times.

Not to mention that incidents like this occurred back in the “old days” just as commonly if not more so. The difference is simple: mass media.

Loklorien s'Ilancy

Apr 17th, 2007, 07:39:58 AM

Oh I won't dispute you on Thompson being a class-A dipstick; not by a longshot.

I do find it amusing that, if I were to mentally picture Schteinhauser, I would see a kid in an Evac suit (or whatever it is Gordon wears in HL) running around chasing people with a crowbar and screaming that they had headcrabs. I mean seriously. Thompson is from Bizarro-land. And not the awesome kind, either.

Ryan Pode

Apr 17th, 2007, 08:25:55 AM

Sorry Jack Thompson, I can't train to kill without vertical aim axis and cross hairs.

Jedi Master Carr

Apr 17th, 2007, 08:36:51 AM

So we know the gunman's name. It is Cho Seung-Hui he is South Korean citizen who has a green card in this country. I would like to know how a foreign national got a gun. From what I heard from the news conference they have a receit for one of the guns he purchased. More than likely he got the gun at a gun show where they don't ask any questions.
About the gunman, I am not sure if we will ever know his true motivations unless he left some note hanging around. He might end up like Charles Whitman, whose rampage nobody really understands to this day. And on Jack Thompson the man is an idiot. He is an ambulance chaser, that is all that he is. He sees this case and dollar signs go off in his head. People like him make me sick.

CMJ

Apr 17th, 2007, 08:40:38 AM

Yog

Apr 17th, 2007, 08:47:18 AM

So we know the gunman's name. It is Cho Seung-Hui he is South Korean citizen who has a green card in this country. I would like to know how a foreign national got a gun. From what I heard from the news conference they have a receit for one of the guns he purchased. More than likely he got the gun at a gun show where they don't ask any questions.
About the gunman, I am not sure if we will ever know his true motivations unless he left some note hanging around. He might end up like Charles Whitman, whose rampage nobody really understands to this day.

Cho, a 23-year-old South Korean and resident alien, lived at the university's Harper Hall. He was an English major. Cho was a loner and authorities are having a hard time finding information about him.

Jedi Master Carr

Apr 17th, 2007, 08:53:50 AM

I think Whitman was probably some sort of clinical depressive. He seemed aware that something was wrong with him...just look at his suicide note. Also had a brain tumor which might have factored in to his mental state.

That is true. I know some people have tried to say the Brain tumor wasn't related but personally I don't know if we could know that. I am sure we could come up with some motivation like Whitman at worse in this case. I am not sure if there is any note although my sister said she heard that on the radio, but I haven't heard that on any news channel.

Jedi Master Carr

Apr 17th, 2007, 08:55:37 AM

Cho, a 23-year-old South Korean and resident alien, lived at the university's Harper Hall. He was an English major. Cho was a loner and authorities are having a hard time finding information about him.

That makes sense. They will probably talk to his family. Not sure if he has family here or not. Although he must have been living with someone to get the Green Card. I think the girlfriend angle was false. Although, he could have been obsessed with this girl he first killed, but I am just speculating.

Yog

Apr 17th, 2007, 09:17:32 AM

Here is how he looks like:

<img src=http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/4957/htvatechcho070417spne6.jpg>

Law enforcement officials have provided this official photo of Cho Seung-Hui, the man they identify as the killer at Virginia Tech. Cho was a 23-year-old student of Korean descent who lived on campus. Sources tell ABC News he was carrying a backpack with a receipt for the purchase of a 9 mm handgun.
- ABC News

April 17, 2007 — Police have identified the Virginia Tech killer responsible for the deaths of 32 people as Cho Seung-hui.

Cho, 23, a Virginia Tech student and a native of South Korea, was a resident alien who lived in Centerville, Va.

Police say the senior English major, who lived in Harper Hall dormitory, was likely responsible for both shootings at the university, the first of which took place at around 7:15 a.m. Monday, when two people were killed at West Ambler Johnston Hall dormitory. Later that morning, the remaining victims were killed in the engineering studies building Norris Hall.

Immigration officials linked the fingerprints at the scene to Cho's immigration documents.

Legal permanent resident aliens may purchase firearms in the state of Virginia. The buyer must, however, provide additional identification to prove he or she is a resident of the state.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3048534

Yog

Apr 17th, 2007, 09:36:33 AM

Update from <a href=http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2432530&perpage=40&pagenumber=143#post326213938>SA forums:
</a>

This was just posted on Tribalwar by user Jomo

"Holy **** guys, I thought the guy was lying.. I knew this guys first name and about the receipt and **** from a message board I read yesterday.

http://www.black-rifles.com/forums/i...ic=19283&st=40

The website is currently down, but the guy posted this:

"Well, I'm screwed. They found a receipt in the gunman's pocket indicating that he bought the gun from me in March. ATF is at my shop right now. See you later, I'm on my way to the shop right now."

"Call BS all you like, but I just spent the last several hours with 3 ATF agents. I saw the shooter's picture. I know his name and home address. I also know that he used a Glock 19 and a Walther P-22. The serial number was ground off the Glock. Why would he do that and still keep the receipt in his pocket from when he bought the gun? ATF told me that they are going to keep this low-key and not report this to the tv news. However, they cautioned that it will leak out eventually, and that I should be ready to deal with CNN, FOX, etc. My 32 camera surveillance system recorded the event 35 days ago. This is a digital system that only keeps the video for 35 days. We got lucky. By the way, the paperwork for Mr. Cho was perfect, thank God."

Mr. Cho had proof of Virginia residency, checkbook (for a second ID), and his green card(which is, of course, not green). That is all he needed to purchase a handgun.

He had this site linked in his sig, which is where the guy got his guns:
Welcome to Roanoke Firearms!"

Jedi Master Carr

Apr 17th, 2007, 09:37:16 AM

Jedi Master Carr

Apr 17th, 2007, 09:40:00 AM

Update from <a href=http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2432530&perpage=40&pagenumber=143#post326213938>SA forums:
</a>

wow, although who knows if that is true or not. I am sure we will find who sold him the gun and a big deal will be made about the law for non-citizens buying firearms.

Yog

Apr 17th, 2007, 09:56:07 AM

According to Chicago Tribune, the shooter left a note.

BLACKSBURG, Va. -- The suspected gunman in the Virginia Tech shooting rampage, Cho Seung-Hui, was a troubled 23-year-old senior from South Korea who investigators believe left an invective-filled note in his dorm room, sources say.

The note included a rambling list of grievances and ended with the words "Ismail Ax" in red ink on the inside of one of his arms.

Cho had shown recent signs of violent, aberrant behavior, according to an investigative source, including setting a fire in a dorm room and allegedly stalking some women.

A note believed to have been written by Cho was found in his dorm room that railed against "rich kids," "debauchery" and "deceitful charlatans" on campus.

Source: chicagotribune.com

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-070417vtech-shootings,0,1137509.story?coll=chi-homepagepromo440-fea

Jedi Master Carr

Apr 17th, 2007, 10:22:37 AM

Blade Bacquin

Apr 17th, 2007, 10:29:24 AM

Description of events
The first shooting occurred at around 7:15 a.m. EDT in West Ambler Johnston Hall, a co-ed dormitory that houses 895 students. A woman, Emily J. Hilscher of Woodville, Virginia, and a male resident assistant, Ryan C. Clark of Augusta, Georgia, were killed.[12][13] Authorities identified a "person of interest" in the first shooting, who is cooperating with them. According to the Washington Post, this "person of interest" was the boyfriend of the woman in the dorm and was released after cooperating.[4]

About two hours after the initial shootings, shots were reported in a classroom at Norris Hall, an engineering and science building.[2][14] A ballistics test shows that the same gun was used in both campus shootings.[15]

The motives of the gunman remain unclear, though the British tabloid Daily Mail reported that the shooter at the dormitory "was said to have quarreled in a dormitory with his girlfriend, whom he believed had been seeing another man. A resident advisor was called but the shooter produced a gun and killed both his girlfriend and the advisor."[16] However, this theory is contradicted by a report in the Washington Post, which seems to indicate that the assailant was not the boyfriend of the girl, but rather someone else.[4]

An eyewitness told the student newspaper, the Collegiate Times, that a gunman shot about nineteen people attending a German class in Norris Hall including the professor.[17][18][19] Only four people emerged unscathed from the German class, with the rest either being killed or wounded. Erin Sheehan, one of the four, said the gunman "peeked in twice, earlier in the lesson, like he was looking for someone, somebody, before he started shooting."

Twenty-seven gunshots can be heard in video footage captured with a cell phone, later broadcast on many news outlets.[20]

Student Nikolas Macko described to BBC News his experience at the center of the shootings. He had been attending a math class and heard gunshots in the hallway. Three people in the classroom barricaded themselves inside the room using a table. At one point, Macko said, the gunman even attempted to break down the door of the classroom and then shot twice into the room; one shot hit a podium and the other went out the window. The shooter reloaded and shot into the door again but the bullet did not penetrate into the room. He stated there were "many, many shots" fired.[14]

High winds prevented emergency medical services from using helicopters for the evacuations.[21] Victims injured in the event were treated at Montgomery Regional Hospital in Blacksburg, Carilion New River Valley Medical Center in Christiansburg, and Lewis-Gale Medical Center in Salem.[5]

"Gah Wikipedia is fast"

Perpetrator
Main article: Cho Seung-hui

Cho Seung-huiThe shooter was later identified as 23-year old Cho Seung-hui,[10] a South Korean living in the US as a United States Permanent Resident . He arrived in the US as an 8 year old child in 1992 with his family.[22] He was an undergraduate student in his senior year, majoring in English. Law enforcement reported that he killed himself inside Norris Hall by a shot to the head. Officials believe he used a 9 mm Glock 19 and a .22 caliber Walther P-22 handgun.[23] Cho purchased the 9 mm Glock 19 on March 13, 2007, and the .22 handgun possibly the weekend prior to the shooting. [24] According to former FBI agent Brad Garrett, "This was no spur of the moment crime. He's been thinking about this since at least the time he bought the first gun." [25] One of the guns was used in both incidents. An official added that Cho was "heavily armed and wearing a vest."[26][27][28][29] Cho was a student at the school and lived in one of the dormitories.[30] Sources also state that Cho was carrying a "disturbing note."[31]

A student speaking to Times Now said that the first gunshots were heard when classes were in progress. "We heard about thirty gunshots in the morning. The gunman appeared to be Asian and was looking for his girlfriend," the student said.[32] However, a relationship between any of the victims and the shooter has not yet been established.

According to the official announcement from Virginia Tech, Cho Seung-hui was "South Korean native in the U.S. as a resident alien with a residence established in Centreville, Virginia, was living on campus at 2121 Harper Residence Hall".[33]

Blade Bacquin

Apr 17th, 2007, 10:45:53 AM

Yog

Apr 17th, 2007, 10:48:11 AM

Here are the guns he used (example photos)

<a href=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glock_19>Glock 19</a>
<img src=http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/2417/325pxg19blkgripym9.jpg>
Standard magazine capacity is 15 rounds of 9 x 19 mm ammunition. Balistic tests show the 9mm Glock was used at both shootings. The fingerprints of Cho Seung-hui were found on this weapon.

<a href=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walther_P-22>Walther P22</a>
<img src=http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/9445/300pxwaltherp22targetprsy2.jpg>
The P22 is a semi-automatic pistol with .22 cal ammo.

Jedi Master Carr

Apr 17th, 2007, 11:03:24 AM

I wonder how he got a Glock? That is no cheap weapon those things are expensive.

Yog

Apr 17th, 2007, 02:16:54 PM

On a side note this is only considered the second worst disaster In american school history. Number one spot know as The Bath School disaster happen on May 18, 1927 in Bath Township, Michigan, USA. It was bombing claiming 45 people and 58 injured.

It was caused by a man who had lost his farm and blamed it on property tax that had been levied to fund the construction of the school building.

That's seriously messed up. The Virgina Tech attack has the highest number of casualties in a school shooting though. There was one in Austin Texas 1966 with 16 killed, and the one in Columbine with 12 people killed.

Here is a list of school masacres. A lot of these incidents happened in the US:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_massacres

Yog

Apr 17th, 2007, 02:35:00 PM

From ABC News:

Killer's Note: 'You Caused Me to Do This'

April 17, 2007 — Seung-Hui Cho, the student who killed 32 people and then himself yesterday, left a long and "disturbing" note in his dorm room at Virginia Tech, say law enforcement sources.

Sources have now described the note, which runs several pages, as beginning in the present tense and then shifting to the past tense. It contains rhetoric explaining Cho's actions and says, "You caused me to do this," the sources told ABC News.
...

A 'Troubled' Young Man

Carolyn Rude, chairwoman of Virginia Tech's English department, is quoted as saying a colleague, Lucinda Roy, described Cho as "troubled." According to a report from the Associated Press, Roy was concerned enough about what Cho wrote in an assignment last year that she recommended he seek counseling.

<a href=http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0417071vtech1.html>TheSmokingGun.com</a> (warning: this is some disturbing stuff! - Yog) has posted the text of a play, purported to be by Cho, which describes a 13-year-old boy who accuses his stepfather of pedophelia, and ends with the boy's death. In the play, titled "Richard McBeef," the boy talks of killing his stepfather.

"There was some concern about him," Rude said. "Sometimes, in creative writing, people reveal things and you never know if it's creative or if they're describing things, if they're imagining things or just how real it might be. But we're all alert to not ignore things like this."

Some news accounts have suggested that Cho had a history of antidepressant use, but senior federal officials tell ABC News that they can find no record of such medication in the government's files. This does not completely rule out prescription drug use, including samples from a physician, drugs obtained through illegal internet sources, or a gap in the federal database, but the sources say theirs is a reasonably complete search.
...
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3048108&page=1

Update with more details on Cho's problems here:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18148802/

Student alarmed instructors, fellow students
An instructor told NBC News that Cho’s creative writing was so disturbing that she referred him to the school’s counseling service, but he would not go.

“I kept saying, ‘Please go to counseling; I will take you to counseling,’ because he was so depressed,” said Lucinda Roy, the department’s director of creative writing. But “I was told that you can’t force anybody to go over ... so their hands were tied, too.”

Roy described Cho as “an intelligent man — quite a gifted student in some ways.” But she said he also seemed to be an awkward and very lonely man who never took off his sunglasses, even indoors.

“We didn’t build up a rapport, because he wasn’t the kind of student who would permit that,” she added.

Fellow students in a playwriting class with Cho described his plays as dark and disturbing.

“His writing, the plays, were really morbid and grotesque,” Stephanie Derry, a senior English major, told the campus newspaper, The Collegiate Times.

“I remember one of them very well. It was about a son who hated his stepfather. In the play, the boy threw a chainsaw around and hammers at him. But the play ended with the boy violently suffocating the father with a Rice Krispy treat,” Derry said.
....

[b]Very quiet, always by himself
Otherwise, Cho was a young man who apparently left little impression in the Virginia Tech community. Few of his fellow residents of Harper Hall said they knew the gunman, who kept to himself.

“He can’t have been an outgoing kind of person,” Meredith Daly, 19, of Danville, Va., told MSNBC.com’s Bill Dedman.

In Centreville, a suburb of Washington where Cho’s family lived in an off-white, two-story townhouse, people who knew Cho concurred that he kept to himself.

“He was very quiet, always by himself,” said Abdul Shash, a neighbor. Shash said Cho spent a lot of his free time playing basketball and would not respond if someone greeted him. He described the family as quiet.

Rod Wells, a postal worker, said that characterization of Cho did not fit the man’s parents, who, he described as “always polite, always kind to me, very quiet, always smiling. Just sweet, sweet people.”

“I talk to particularly everybody here,” Wells told NBC News. “So I guess nobody had any intimation that he was like that. I don’t think the parents did, because they were quite the opposite.”
.......

Two of his plays can be found here, with comments from a fellow student:
http://newsbloggers.aol.com/2007/04/17/cho-seung-huis-plays/

When I first heard about the multiple shootings at Virginia Tech yesterday, my first thought was about my friends, and my second thought was "I bet it was Seung Cho."

Cho was in my playwriting class last fall, and nobody seemed to think much of him at first. He would sit by himself whenever possible, and didn't like talking to anyone. I don't think I've ever actually heard his voice before. He was just so quiet and kept to himself. Looking back, he fit the exact stereotype of what one would typically think of as a "school shooter" – a loner, obsessed with violence, and serious personal problems. Some of us in class tried to talk to him to be nice and get him out of his shell, but he refused talking to anyone. It was like he didn't want to be friends with anybody. One friend of mine tried to offer him some Halloween candy that she still had, but he slowly shook his head, refusing it. He just came to class every day and submitted his work on time, as I understand it.

A major part of the playwriting class was peer reviews. We would write one-act plays and submit them to an online repository called Blackboard for everyone in the class to read and comment about in class the next day. Typically, the students give their opinions about the plays and suggest ways to make it better, the professor gives his insights, then asks the author to comment about the play in class.

When we read Cho's plays, it was like something out of a nightmare. The plays had really twisted, macabre violence that used weapons I wouldn't have even thought of. Before Cho got to class that day, we students were talking to each other with serious worry about whether he could be a school shooter. I was even thinking of scenarios of what I would do in case he did come in with a gun, I was that freaked out about him. When the students gave reviews of his play in class, we were very careful with our words in case he decided to snap. Even the professor didn't pressure him to give closing comments.

Yog

Apr 17th, 2007, 02:51:05 PM

And here are profiles of known killed victims so far:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,266466,00.html

A very moving story of one of the victims was this one:

Liviu Librescu, 76, was a Holocaust survivor, who his son said, will be remembered as a hero. He "blocked the doorway with his body and asked the students to flee," Joe Librescu told AP. "Students started opening windows and jumping out." The elder Librescu, a professor at Virginia Tech, was recognized internationally for his research in aeronautical engineering, the head of the Engineering Science and Mechanics Department at Virginia Tech told AP. He was born and received his advanced degrees in Romania.

As the students jumped out, the killer shot the professor through the door. He gave his life to save his students :(

Lilaena De'Ville

Apr 17th, 2007, 04:00:41 PM

An essay written by Bradford Wiles, a graduate student at Virginia Tech in November of last year. He, thankfully, was at home yesterday due to a canceled session with his advisor.

http://www.roanoke.com/editoria<wbr>ls/commentary/wb/80510 (http://www.roanoke.com/editorials/commentary/wb/80510)

Unarmed and vulnerable
Bradford B. Wiles
Wiles, of New Castle, is a graduate student at Virginia Tech.

On Aug. 21 at about 9:20 a.m., my graduate-level class was evacuated from the Squires Student Center. We were interrupted in class and not informed of anything other than the following words: "You need to get out of the building."

Upon exiting the classroom, we were met at the doors leading outside by two armor-clad policemen with fully automatic weapons, plus their side arms. Once outside, there were several more officers with either fully automatic rifles and pump shotguns, and policemen running down the street, pistols drawn.

It was at this time that I realized that I had no viable means of protecting myself.
Please realize that I am licensed to carry a concealed handgun in the commonwealth of Virginia, and do so on a regular basis. However, because I am a Virginia Tech student, I am prohibited from carrying at school because of Virginia Tech's student policy, which makes possession of a handgun an expellable offense, but not a prosecutable crime.

I had entrusted my safety, and the safety of others to the police. In light of this, there are a few things I wish to point out.

First, I never want to have my safety fully in the hands of anyone else, including the police.
Second, I considered bringing my gun with me to campus, but did not due to the obvious risk of losing my graduate career, which is ridiculous because had I been shot and killed, there would have been no graduate career for me anyway.

Third, and most important, I am trained and able to carry a concealed handgun almost anywhere in Virginia and other states that have reciprocity with Virginia, but cannot carry where I spend more time than anywhere else because, somehow, I become a threat to others when I cross from the town of Blacksburg onto Virginia Tech's campus.

Of all of the emotions and thoughts that were running through my head that morning, the most overwhelming one was of helplessness.

That feeling of helplessness has been difficult to reconcile because I knew I would have been safer with a proper means to defend myself.

I would also like to point out that when I mentioned to a professor that I would feel safer with my gun, this is what she said to me, "I would feel safer if you had your gun."

The policy that forbids students who are legally licensed to carry in Virginia needs to be changed.
I am qualified and capable of carrying a concealed handgun and urge you to work with me to allow my most basic right of self-defense, and eliminate my entrusting my safety and the safety of my classmates to the government.

This incident makes it clear that it is time that Virginia Tech and the commonwealth of Virginia let me take responsibility for my safety.

Loklorien s'Ilancy

Apr 17th, 2007, 04:09:37 PM

Yeah, I posted the wiki page for Liviu Librescu on the previous page because it was so moving. I mean, yeah it sucks that he died in a school shooting after having survived the holocaust, but I think the way he died - protecting his students - greatly overshadowed that.

CMJ

Apr 17th, 2007, 05:15:04 PM

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/nation/4723996.html

Yog

Apr 17th, 2007, 07:11:59 PM

I wonder how he got a Glock? That is no cheap weapon those things are expensive.

Apparently, he bought it for $571, and the background check took a minute.

The story I posted earlier about the gun purchase at the Roanoke Firearms store, is now confirmed by CNN:

Cho paid $571 for a 9 mm Glock 19 pistol just over a month ago, the owner of Roanoke Firearms told CNN Tuesday. He also used a .22-caliber Walther pistol in the attack, police said.

John Markell said Cho was very low-key when he purchased the Glock and 50 rounds of ammunition with a credit card in an "unremarkable" purchase.

Cho presented three forms of identification and did not say why he wanted the gun, Markell said.

State police conducted an instant background check that probably took about a minute, the store owner said.

Markell said he was shocked when three agents from the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms arrived at his store Monday with the receipt for the weapon.

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/04/17/vtech.shooting/index.html

Jedi Master Carr

Apr 17th, 2007, 09:28:18 PM

He must have saved his money to buy the thing I guess. His family isn't rich. It also doesn't sound like the background checks mattered in this case he did pass them and the guy who sold them went by the book. I don't think there is much that could have been done there.

Zem-El Vymes

Apr 17th, 2007, 09:53:57 PM

More than likely he got the gun at a gun show where they don't ask any questions.

You sound like an expert on gun shows. Please tell me more about this no-questions-asked arms bazaar you go to, and what the cover fee is to get inside?

I wonder how he got a Glock? That is no cheap weapon those things are expensive.

No they aren't. Glocks are moderately-priced pistols.

He must have saved his money to buy the thing I guess. His family isn't rich. It also doesn't sound like the background checks mattered in this case he did pass them and the guy who sold them went by the book. I don't think there is much that could have been done there.

I'm not rich either, and own pistols worth three times that amount. That's a paycheck at Starbucks, no problem.

Ryan Pode

Apr 18th, 2007, 07:53:13 AM

In Virginia, at second hand gun shows you can buy on the spot. No background check.

Yog

Apr 18th, 2007, 08:31:57 AM

From the live press conference now:
- the police received complaints about Cho stalking two female students. Once in november and once december 2005.

- the two women refused to press charges.

- in november 2005, Cho had concerned one woman enough with his calls and e-mail in that police were called in

- in december 2005, Cho sent instant messages to a second woman. He made no threats, but the student complained. Officers spoke to him at that time.

- in the second case of stalking, the department also received a call from an acquaintance of Cho's who was concerned that he might be suicidal

- after the call about concerns about Cho being suicidal, he was taken to a mental health facility

- because Cho was never arrested, he was able to pass the background check.

CBS: <a href=http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/04/18/virginiatechshooting/main2697827.shtml>Police: Cho Stalked 2 Women In 2005. Two Women Complained, But Failed To Press Charges; He Then Went To Mental Health Agency</a>

Also updated story on Cho's behavior on CNN:
http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/04/18/vtech.shooting/index.html

Cho's poetry was so intimidating -- and his behavior so menacing -- that Giovanni had him removed from her class in the fall of 2005, she said. Giovanni said the final straw came when two of her students quit attending her poetry sessions because of Cho.

"I was trying to find out, what am I doing wrong here?" Giovanni recalled thinking, but the students came to her during her office hours and explained, "He's taking photographs of us. We don't know what he's doing."

Giovanni went to the department's then-chairwoman, Lucinda Roy, and told her she wanted Cho out of her class, and Roy obliged.

"I was willing to resign before I was going to continue with him," Giovanni said. "There was something mean about this boy."

Giovanni said she's taught her share of oddballs in the past, but there was something malicious about Cho's behavior.

"I know we're talking about a troubled youngster and crap like that, but troubled youngsters get drunk and jump off buildings; troubled youngsters drink and drive," she said. "I've taught troubled youngsters. I've taught crazy people. It was the meanness that bothered me. It was a, really, mean streak."

"I knew when it happened that that's probably who it was," Giovanni said, referring to her former pupil. "I would have been shocked if it wasn't."
....

Roy, who taught Cho one-on-one after removing him from Giovanni's class, recalled Cho exhibiting a palpable anger and secretly taking photographs of other students while holding the camera under his desk.

His writings were so disturbing, she said, that she went to the police and university administrators for help.

"The threats seemed to be underneath the surface," she said. "They were not explicit and that was the difficulty the police had."

Ian McFarlane, who had class with Cho, said two plays written by Cho were so "twisted" that McFarlane and other students openly pondered "whether he could be a school shooter."

Cho's roommates, who asked to be identified only as Andy and John, had similar accounts. Andy recalled police coming to the dormitory to investigate Cho's involvement with a female students and when Andy told police that Cho had spoken of suicide, "they took him away to the counseling center for a night or two."

In retrospect, Cho had exhibited "big warning signs," Andy said. But he was so quiet, the roommate said, "he was just like a shadow."

ABC News:
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/VATech/story?id=3050437&page=1

Roy reached out to Cho and became alarmed herself. "I've been teaching for 22 years, and there've only been a couple of times when I thought that this is a really, really worrying thing," Roy says today. "And this was one of them."

Roy removed Cho from class and tutored him, occasionally fearing for her own safety. "I was hoping that by taking him out of the classroom … I'd help maybe to avoid something that could be catastrophic," she says. "I kept saying to him, 'Please go to counseling. I will take you over to counseling myself,' because he was so depressed … but apparently I was told you can't force someone to go to counseling. Even though I called counseling trying to get everyone to force him to go over, their hands were tied."

Eventually his behavior and disturbing writings prompted her to contact authorities.

"The threats seemed to be underneath the surface. They were not explicit," she recalled. "And that was the difficulty that the police had. I would go to the police and to the counselors and to student affairs and everywhere else, and they would say, 'There's nothing explicit here. He's not actually saying he's going to kill someone.' And my argument was he seemed so disturbed anyway that we needed to do something about this."

Yog

Apr 18th, 2007, 10:27:47 AM

Apparently, this was the 5th time the gunstore the Glock came from, was selling to a murderer:

http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/04/murder_weapon_n.html

John Markell, the owner of the gun shop, told ABC News it is the fifth time a gun sold in his store has been used in a homicide.

For gun control advocates, the ease with which Cho was able to legally get his handgun and a box of ammunition reveals the problem with Virginia's gun laws, which are regarded by law enforcement officials as among the most lax in the country.

"Virginia is, 'Let's sell it to somebody, and let's not find out anything about them.' And I think it's this disgrace that may have led to a tragedy," said Josh Horowitz of the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence.

As footage recorded by an undercover team sent to Virginia by the New York Police Department shows, it's possible to buy a handgun at a Virginia gun store with no waiting period and a background check that only looks for criminal convictions.

The New York City police department says Virginia is also the top source for illegal guns used in crimes committed in New York.

The undercover team only had to produce a Virginia driver's license and fill out a few forms in order to walk out of the store with a handgun.

"It is quite frankly an easy state to buy a weapon," said New York City Police Commissioner Ray Kelly. "The philosophy is that it appears to be an entitlement to own a handgun."

But many in Virginia like it that way, and, in fact, some think there should be more guns on campuses.

Jedi Master Carr

Apr 18th, 2007, 11:01:30 AM

I think Virginia should change its gun control laws sombody like Cho should never have been allowed to buy a weapon. Of course the police should have took him more seriously and had himc commited.

Yog

Apr 18th, 2007, 11:12:21 AM

I think Virginia should change its gun control laws sombody like Cho should never have been allowed to buy a weapon. Of course the police should have took him more seriously and had himc commited.

I tend to agree. The only way Cho could have made this more obvious, was if he walked around with a sign saying "I am insane! Sell me guns so I can shoot people!". The 1 minute check of criminal record just was not enough. Someone with Cho's mental condition should not be allowed to buy a gun.

He should also have received help of some kind. Clearly he was a depressed person scaring the students and lecturers. There should be a better safety net for people with mental problems.

Figrin D'an

Apr 18th, 2007, 11:42:27 AM

Of course the police should have took him more seriously and had himc commited.

How? On what grounds? He didn't commit a official crime until this incident. You can't just arbitrarily take away someone's civil rights on a hunch. Had a mental health official made an assessment that his state of mind was such that he would be dangerous to himself and others, he could have been committed. Beyond that, there's nothing that could have been done prior to Monday, especially considering the women he reportedly stalked chose not to press charges.

CMJ

Apr 18th, 2007, 12:19:49 PM

Give me a word
Give me a sign
Show me where to look
Tell what will I find ( will I find )
Lay me on the ground
Fly me in the sky
Show me where to look
Tell me what will I find ( will I find )

Oh, heaven let your light shine down (x4)

Love is in the water
Love is in the air
Show me where to go
Tell me will love be there ( love be there )
Teach me how to speak
Teach me how to share
Teach me where to go
Tell me will love be there ( love be there )

Oh, heaven let your light shine down (x4)

Im going to let it shine (x2)
Heavens little light gonna shine on me
Yea yea heavens little light gonna shine on me
Its gonna shine, shine on me
Its gonna shine, come on in shine

Lyrics to his favorite song. Throw on all the rest we know about how disturbed he was with the stalking, and the writing, it really almost makes me feel bad for him. He needed help, but refused everyone who tried to give it.

Yog

Apr 18th, 2007, 12:27:25 PM

It should be more than a hunch though. The police had been contacted on 4 separate occasions. While he could not be criminally prosecuted, there was enough to suspect he had a mental illness. Does this mean he should be arrested? No. Should he have been put into a mental institution? Maybe not. Should he have received treatment? Yes. Should he be allowed to buy guns? Absolutely not.

lyrics

:(

Ryan Pode

Apr 18th, 2007, 01:20:33 PM

He voluntarily went into the institution, and per Virginia gun control law, that will no come up on a background check. It is only when he is involuntarily placed in an institution does it prohibit the sale of firearms.

Yog

Apr 18th, 2007, 01:23:52 PM

Yog

Apr 18th, 2007, 02:41:19 PM

Here is a video (14 minutes long) made by 2 students from Sweden on a week-long exchange to VA Tech. Lots of police running about and confusion:

http://www.roanoke.com/multimedia/video/wb/wb/xp-113323

Update:
NBC just announced they were contacted by Cho. They received a video and images with ramblings. The material has been delivered to the FBI, and has so far not been disclosed to the public.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18169776/

According to a poster on SA, this was mailed between first and second shooting.O_o

Edit: Fox News reports Cho mailed a package between first and second shooting. This package was adressed to NBC, and contains a written statement, photos and a video. :eek

Edit2: The package contained a written "rambling" manifesto, declaring the issues he had with other students. The video is of him reading the manifesto to the camera. There was also photographs, and MSNBC is saying that they will be broadcasting some of the information this evening during the news.

The other big news right now, Cho was declared mentally ill, and a danger to others by a psychatrist:

A Virginia district court found that Virginia Tech killer Cho Seung-Hui was "mentally ill" and was an "imminent danger to others," according to a 2005 temporary detention order.

Cho "is mentally ill and in need of hospitalization, and presents an imminent danger to self or others as mental illness, or is seriously mentally ill as to be substantially unable to care for self, and is incapable of volunteering or unwilling to volunteer for treatment," reads the order, obtained by FOX News.

Yog

Apr 18th, 2007, 04:01:25 PM

<img src=http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/9788/stgmegakillerspeaks251pwy6.jpg>

This is the frontpage at MSNBC right now..

Shooter's Video, photos and written statement to be shown on NBC News at 6.30 pm EST.

Loklorien s'Ilancy

Apr 18th, 2007, 04:10:04 PM

Here's something to make your blood boil:
http://www.godhatesamerica.com/

WBC to Preach at Funerals of Virginia Tech Dead

WBC will preach at the funerals of the Virginia Tech students killed on campus during a shooting rampage April 16, 2007. You describe this as monumental horror, but you know nothing of horror -- yet. Your bloody tyrant Bush says he is 'horrified' by it all. You know nothing of horror -- yet. Your true horror is coming. "They shall also gird themselves with sackloth, and horror shall cover them; and shame shall be upon all faces, and baldness upon all their heads" (Eze. 7:18).

Why did this happen, you ask? It's simple. Your military chose to shoot at the servants of God today, and all they got for their effort was terror. Then, the LORD your God sent a crazed madman to shoot at your children. Was God asleep while this took place? Was He on vacation? Of course not. He willed this to happen to punish you for assailing His servants.

Zem-El Vymes

Apr 18th, 2007, 06:00:00 PM

In Virginia, at second hand gun shows you can buy on the spot. No background check.

If you're a dealer, you have to go through federal channels to clear a sale. I don't care if you're selling out of a double wide trailer on a dirt road, you have to clear the BATFE and they put your nose to the grindstone on that sort of thing.

Apparently, this was the 5th time the gunstore the Glock came from, was selling to a murderer:

http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/04/murder_weapon_n.html

John Markell, the owner of the gun shop, told ABC News it is the fifth time a gun sold in his store has been used in a homicide.

This is a non-issue, especially when paired with not knowing how long this business has been running and what the volume is. As I've already said before, you have to get cleared by the federal checks to even proceed on a sale. This isn't a Virginia issue, it's a federal mandate.

It should be more than a hunch though. The police had been contacted on 4 separate occasions. While he could not be criminally prosecuted, there was enough to suspect he had a mental illness. Does this mean he should be arrested? No. Should he have been put into a mental institution? Maybe not. Should he have received treatment? Yes. Should he be allowed to buy guns? Absolutely not.

If he hasn't been committed involuntarily there's no reason to deny on psychiatric reasons. To imply otherwise is to tread all over personal freedom and even into areas such as doctor/patient confidentiality.

Here's something to make your blood boil:
http://www.godhatesamerica.com/

We all know they're jerks, but then again, this is one of many reasons the first amendment was created. They have the right.

Loklorien s'Ilancy

Apr 18th, 2007, 06:07:14 PM

I know they're jerks, and I'm not going to deny them their rights of free speech, but it does allow others to get creative in how they deal with people like this.

I read that someone started up a fund drive at another picketed funeral, and basically had people cheering the WBC on since the more these folks spit out their hate-talk, the more money was pledged to the victim's families.

Yog

Apr 18th, 2007, 06:24:38 PM

If you're a dealer, you have to go through federal channels to clear a sale. I don't care if you're selling out of a double wide trailer on a dirt road, you have to clear the BATFE and they put your nose to the grindstone on that sort of thing.

I suggest you read this:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18138961/

Gun show checks
Are background checks required at gun shows? No

Registration
Are all guns registered with law enforcement? No

This is a non-issue, especially when paired with not knowing how long this business has been running and what the volume is. As I've already said before, you have to get cleared by the federal checks to even proceed on a sale. This isn't a Virginia issue, it's a federal mandate.

It looks like a small gun store from the photos. There would need to be an incredible sales volume from that store in order to be in line what you would expect statistically. Surely, there are thousands of gun stores in the US?

If he hasn't been committed involuntarily there's no reason to deny on psychiatric reasons. To imply otherwise is to tread all over personal freedom and even into areas such as doctor/patient confidentiality.

1. He has a court order saying he is mentally ill and is a danger to himself and others.
2. This is not about doctor/patient confidentiality. He was clearly mentally unfit for the responsibility of owning a gun.

Zem-El Vymes

Apr 18th, 2007, 06:35:20 PM

I suggest you read this:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18138961/

Gun show checks
Are background checks required at gun shows? No

Registration
Are all guns registered with law enforcement? No

Oh MSNBC bastions of truth.

The gun show check issue is highly misleading, because while there are no specific checks related to gun shows, there ARE checks that form an umbrella over all dealer sales, and yes, show participants still have to abide by them.

As for registration, they got that one right. I know you're implying it should somehow be different, but I can't for the life of me imagine why we'd want to give the government information as to who's packing and the details therein. That's a horrible blunder in the making.

It looks like a small gun store from the photos. There would need to be an incredible sales volume from that store in order to be in line what you would expect statistically. Surely, there are thousands of gun stores in the US?

My major arms hookup is a hole-in-the-wall weapons shop called Southeastern Guns, stuck in between a candle shop and a cingular cell phone shack. The square footage is nothing to sneeze at, but they corner a huge chunk of firearm business across the greater Birmingham metropolitan area (some 1.25 million people). Small shops can still achieve amazing turnover, and do.

1. He has a court order saying he is mentally ill and is a danger to himself and others.
2. This is not about doctor/patient confidentiality. He was clearly mentally unfit for the responsibility of owning a gun.

Then why was he not committed?

Yog

Apr 18th, 2007, 07:02:29 PM

Oh MSNBC bastions of truth.

The gun show check issue is highly misleading, because while there are no specific checks related to gun shows, there ARE checks that form an umbrella over all dealer sales

How does this work though? Would not a criminal be able to just walk right in, buy the gun and walk out of there, unhindered?

and yes, show participants still have to abide by them.

Maybe it's just me, but I have the feeling there is a difference between law and practice at these gunshows. Are gun merchants held accountable for their sales, and how do federal authority keep track of the guns being sold?

As for registration, they got that one right. I know you're implying it should somehow be different, but I can't for the life of me imagine why we'd want to give the government information as to who's packing and the details therein. That's a horrible blunder in the making.

Who is packing the gun is maybe not so interesting. But a record of when x buyer buys a gun, and the model and serial number of the gun is interesting.

My major arms hookup is a hole-in-the-wall weapons shop called Southeastern Guns, stuck in between a candle shop and a cingular cell phone shack. The square footage is nothing to sneeze at, but they corner a huge chunk of firearm business across the greater Birmingham metropolitan area (some 1.25 million people). Small shops can still achieve amazing turnover, and do.

Maybe it's just a coincidence. But it's suspect enough to look into. Hopefully, it's not something the police overlooked.

Then why was he not committed?
Beats me. From the sound of things, he was asked if he would volunteer to be put into mental hospital. If he refused, he would likely put in there anyway. Since he volunteered, this did not not register on the background check. In the court order, it says he is mentally ill and a danger to himself and others, but somehow the checkbox for that was not marked. I could try find you more details of the documents if you like.

Zem-El Vymes

Apr 18th, 2007, 07:13:28 PM

How does this work though? Would not a criminal be able to just walk right in, buy the gun and walk out of there, unhindered?

No, because you have to process the BATFE form, then the dealer calls it in to the Federals, relays the information, gets the decision, and ONLY THEN can the sale legally proceed.

Maybe it's just me, but I have the feeling there is a difference between law and practice at these gunshows. Are gun merchants held accountable for their sales, and how do federal authority keep track of the guns being sold?
Gun shows are big, huge, and very public. They're easy marks for plainclothed agents trying to straw purchase or otherwise catch dealers doing illegal things. Further, there is no incentive for a dealer to bypass the system. They gain a sale if they do, which they can do legally six ways to sunday already. They risk not only the revocation of their dealer status (which usually costs a lot of money and time to begin with) but also the very real possibility of having a firearm felony on their jacket, which carries mandatory minimums.

So, why?

Who is packing the gun is maybe not so interesting. But a record of when x buyer buys a gun, and the model and serial number of the gun is interesting.
It's still the same thing. It still gets authorities onto people purchasing weapons, who have done no wrong other than to exist. It's a huge potential for ethical abuse and violation as well.

Maybe it's just a coincidence. But it's suspect enough to look into. Hopefully, it's not something the police overlooked.
It's not really noteworthy, I don't think.

Beats me. From the sound of things, he was asked if he would volunteer to be put into mental hospital. If he refused, he would likely put in there anyway. Since he volunteered, this did not not register on the background check. In the court order, it says he is mentally ill and a danger to himself and others, but somehow the checkbox for that was not marked. I could try find you more details of the documents if you like.

If anything, that would be a foulup in the psychiatric health system, and not one pertaining to gun control laws.

Yog

Apr 18th, 2007, 07:44:12 PM

No, because you have to process the BATFE form, then the dealer calls it in to the Federals, relays the information, gets the decision, and ONLY THEN can the sale legally proceed.

If they are not checking criminal records, what are the Federals checking after relaying the BATFE form? Are there seperate criminal records on state and federal level?

Gun shows are big, huge, and very public. They're easy marks for plainclothed agents trying to straw purchase or otherwise catch dealers doing illegal things. Further, there is no incentive for a dealer to bypass the system. They gain a sale if they do, which they can do legally six ways to sunday already. They risk not only the revocation of their dealer status (which usually costs a lot of money and time to begin with) but also the very real possibility of having a firearm felony on their jacket, which carries mandatory minimums.

So, why?

I'm just curious. I hear about this in the media a lot over here, how easy it is to get guns at gunshows. Stories of underage teenagers purchasing guns and not showing their ID's. So that's all a myth then?

It's still the same thing. It still gets authorities onto people purchasing weapons, who have done no wrong other than to exist. It's a huge potential for ethical abuse and violation as well.

Imagine you're investigating a murder crime scene. Would it not be helpful tracing back the serial number of the gun back to who bought it? And vice versa, looking at the name of a murder suspect, knowing what guns he/she purchased and when?

It's not really noteworthy, I don't think.

Well, at least in this case they followed the legal procedure. He asked for ID's and called in for the background check. I am somewhat sceptic to the description of "unremarkable sale" though. The sort of person who requires 10-20 seconds to answer a question and avoiding eye contact would at least to me seem suspicious. It would be good work ethics if he asked stuff like "how is life at school", and "what do you plan to use these guns for", before rushing to accept his VISA and say have a nice day. Of course, he is running a business, so he will probably sell to the most withdrawn person. I am not blaming him though, if anything, it was an error in the background check system at the police.

If anything, that would be a foulup in the psychiatric health system, and not one pertaining to gun control laws.

Yeah, agreed, I think. The point is not wether it was a foul in the gun control laws though. The point is tracing the problem and finding a better system which filters out people like Cho.

Zem-El Vymes

Apr 18th, 2007, 08:01:43 PM

If they are not checking criminal records, what are the Federals checking after relaying the BATFE form? Are there seperate criminal records on state and federal level?

They're one & the same, really. Works like this:

You agree to buy a gun. Gun dealer holds weapon and gives you BATFE form, instructs you what to fill out, etc. You fill that form out & give it to dealer. Dealer then calls the BATFE and authenticates his personal dealer code, then gives the information off the form to the Feds, verbatim. He waits a few minutes, and gets a yes or no response from the BATFE. Based on that response, you either buy the gun or don't.

I'm just curious. I hear about this in the media a lot over here, how easy it is to get guns at gunshows. Stories of underage teenagers purchasing guns and not showing their ID's. So that's all a myth then?

I wouldn't say it has never happened, but I also wouldn't say that there's some sort of systemic undercurrent where dealers are angling to put smokewagons in the hands of gradeschoolers. There's no reason to willfully endanger your freedom and livelihood over it.

Imagine you're investigating a murder crime scene. Would it not be helpful tracing back the serial number of the gun back to who bought it? And vice versa, looking at the name of a murder suspect, knowing what guns he/she purchased and when?

I'm sure it's useful, but so is a lot of stuff in the USA PATRIOT act, and I'm not going to get behind that either. Greasing the wheels of authoritarians can be appealing on a clinical level, but there are reams of unintended consequences to think of.

Well, at least in this case they followed the legal procedure. He asked for ID's and called in for the background check. I am somewhat sceptic to the description of "unremarkable sale" though. The sort of person who requires 10-20 seconds to answer a question and avoiding eye contact would at least to me seem suspicious. It would be good work ethics if he asked stuff like "how is life at school", and "what do you plan to use these guns for", before rushing to accept his VISA and say have a nice day. Of course, he is running a business, so he will probably sell to the most withdrawn person. I am not blaming him though, if anything, it was an error in the background check system at the police.

I love my local gun shop, but the people that run the store are jerks and I hate associating with them. There are a lot of bigots in the firearm business and I don't feel inclined to play nice. I give them business because they're competitive, but I keep it at that. I'm pretty sure that if one asked me what I intended to use a potential purchase for, I would reply with an unsavory retort involving their mother. It is not their business to ask what my business is beyond buying their product.

Yeah, agreed, I think. The point is not wether it was a foul in the gun control laws though. The point is tracing the problem and finding a better system which filters out people like Cho.

Maybe another man in a white jacket, double checking paperwork. I have no idea.

Yog

Apr 18th, 2007, 08:20:22 PM

They're one & the same, really. Works like this:

You agree to buy a gun. Gun dealer holds weapon and gives you BATFE form, instructs you what to fill out, etc. You fill that form out & give it to dealer. Dealer then calls the BATFE and authenticates his personal dealer code, then gives the information off the form to the Feds, verbatim. He waits a few minutes, and gets a yes or no response from the BATFE. Based on that response, you either buy the gun or don't.

If they are one and the same, it seems redundant having both of them. Unless there is something obvious I am missing. They have the same procedures for deciding if it's a yes or no, I assume.. they just coexist as a double check?

I wouldn't say it has never happened, but I also wouldn't say that there's some sort of systemic undercurrent where dealers are angling to put smokewagons in the hands of gradeschoolers. There's no reason to willfully endanger your freedom and livelihood over it.

Good point.

I'm sure it's useful, but so is a lot of stuff in the USA PATRIOT act, and I'm not going to get behind that either. Greasing the wheels of authoritarians can be appealing on a clinical level, but there are reams of unintended consequences to think of.

I am no fan of the Patriot act either. There is a major difference in intrusion of privacy though. Surveying / tapping people's phone lines based on a mere suspicion is a bigger intrusion than passively storing gun purchase info in a database until the day it's needed to solve a murder case. And looking how big problem homicides have become there, I would think the benefit vastly outweighs the inconvenience.

I love my local gun shop, but the people that run the store are jerks and I hate associating with them. There are a lot of bigots in the firearm business and I don't feel inclined to play nice. I give them business because they're competitive, but I keep it at that. I'm pretty sure that if one asked me what I intended to use a potential purchase for, I would reply with an unsavory retort involving their mother. It is not their business to ask what my business is beyond buying their product.

Understandable. You probably act in a normal, non suspicious polite manner though, so the gun salesmen does not really have a reason to ask :)

Maybe another man in a white jacket, double checking paperwork. I have no idea.

I have no idea either. Hopefully, they will be able to improve the procedures so it does not happen so easily.

Zem-El Vymes

Apr 18th, 2007, 08:30:04 PM

If they are one and the same, it seems redundant having both of them. Unless there is something obvious I am missing. They have the same procedures for deciding if it's a yes or no, I assume.. they just coexist as a double check?

I think you may be confused by me using BATFE and Federal interchangeably. They represent the same system and same entity. The form, the phone call, the agent, the check, it's all the same process. Hope that helps.

I am no fan of the Patriot act either. There is a major difference in intrusion of privacy though. Surveying / tapping people's phone lines based on a mere suspicion is a bigger intrusion than passively storing gun purchase info in a database until the day it's needed to solve a murder case. And looking how big problem homicides have become there, I would think the benefit vastly outweighs the inconvenience.
And when this info is leaked or sold or used for influence by people in power? The last thing I need is some vato stealing a Fed laptop with a nice fat excel spreadsheet and having a detailed shopping list. It's happened plenty of times with far more innocent things.

If we start a registry, I will booby-trap my vault. Not even kidding here.

Understandable. You probably act in a normal, non suspicious polite manner though, so the gun salesmen does not really have a reason to ask
How do we know this kid acted any less suspicious than I?

I have no idea either. Hopefully, they will be able to improve the procedures so it does not happen so easily.
Oversight is a hell of a drug. Of all the places to drop the ball, paperwork should be the least.

Yog

Apr 18th, 2007, 08:44:18 PM

I think you may be confused by me using BATFE and Federal interchangeably. They represent the same system and same entity. The form, the phone call, the agent, the check, it's all the same process. Hope that helps.

That helps. Based on the information you told, I concede the INFO at MSNBC was misleading, like you said.

And when this info is leaked or sold or used for influence by people in power? The last thing I need is some vato stealing a Fed laptop with a nice fat excel spreadsheet and having a detailed shopping list. It's happened plenty of times with far more innocent things.

If we start a registry, I will booby-trap my vault. Not even kidding here.

How is this collection of data any worse than tax data, medical records, insurance records, social security number, bank account details and the dozens of other types of data collected on a federal and corporate level? Those are far more transparent and open to abuse too. This kind of data should not be searchable on a laptop anyway. It should be on a central high security datacenter.

How do we know this kid acted any less suspicious than I?

Well, we don't. It's just that all the witnesses who described him, said he was an extremely non responsive withdrawn person every time they tried to talk to him.

Oversight is a hell of a drug. Of all the places to drop the ball, paperwork should be the least.

I think there are probably even more layers of errors than just the paperworks. But I guess we will find out more about these things in the days ahead.

Zem-El Vymes

Apr 18th, 2007, 08:55:33 PM

How is this collection of data any worse than tax data, medical records, insurance records, social security number, bank account details and the dozens of other types of data collected on a federal and corporate level? Those are far more transparent and open to abuse too. This kind of data should not be searchable on a laptop anyway. It should be on a central high security datacenter.

The trouble is, you cannot conduct business in taxes, medicine, insurance, etc without those records. You can easily lawfully own a firearm (ask the 80-ish million owners here) without them.

On top of that, ask the Canadians how their firearm registry has worked out for them. It created an unmitigated shortfall and a sink for way more tax dollars than anticipated. Billions of dollars were poured into a program that has been inconclusively wielded at best.

As for the computer issue, it certainly makes sense for security sake, but these days, it's never done that way. The VA theft was a huge issue months ago. This kind of info, for better or worse, isn't near being under lock and key.

Well, we don't. It's just that all the witnesses who described him, said he was an extremely non responsive withdrawn person every time they tried to talk to him.

Well, how do you tell apart non-responsive and withdrawn as a psychiatric issue, as opposed to somebody who is only interested in talking business? If the shop owner traded suds with this kid at a local bar for a few weeks, maybe he would have a little more insight, but I'm not seeing anything that would trip a bell if he just up and walked in a store, aside from wearing that horrible horrible ugly vest.

I think there are probably even more layers of errors than just the paperworks. But I guess we will find out more about these things in the days ahead.

No doubt. This story will take months to die.

Yog

Apr 18th, 2007, 09:11:49 PM

The trouble is, you cannot conduct business in taxes, medicine, insurance, etc without those records. You can easily lawfully own a firearm (ask the 80-ish million owners here) without them.

From your point of view then, data should only be collected if it's absolutely necessary for a service to run? Even if the data potentially had great benefits to society?

On top of that, ask the Canadians how their firearm registry has worked out for them. It created an unmitigated shortfall and a sink for way more tax dollars than anticipated. Billions of dollars were poured into a program that has been inconclusively wielded at best.

Yeah, it seems authorities / governments all over the world are experts at vasting our tax money on the simplest tasks. It really should not be that expensive to maintain a basic data register. I mean, you just submit some extra data when calling in the form, and keys on a computer are pressed. How hard can it be.

As for the computer issue, it certainly makes sense for security sake, but these days, it's never done that way. The VA theft was a huge issue months ago. This kind of info, for better or worse, isn't near being under lock and key.

It's a shame personal data is not held more secure :(

Well, how do you tell apart non-responsive and withdrawn as a psychiatric issue, as opposed to somebody who is only interested in talking business? If the shop owner traded suds with this kid at a local bar for a few weeks, maybe he would have a little more insight, but I'm not seeing anything that would trip a bell if he just up and walked in a store, aside from wearing that horrible horrible ugly vest.

True. I guess what got to me, was the claim of a totally "unremarkable" guns sale. If he said the customer acted withdrawn, silent etc, it would have sounded more credible to me, and I would just shrugged it off.

Zem-El Vymes

Apr 18th, 2007, 09:19:10 PM

From your point of view then, data should only be collected if it's absolutely necessary for a service to run? Even if the data potentially had great benefits to society?

If it's of a sensitive nature? Yes. At the very least, up to the discretion of the person volunteering the data to divulge it.

Yeah, it seems authorities / governments all over the world are experts at vasting our tax money on the simplest tasks. It really should not be that expensive to maintain a basic data register. I mean, you just submit some extra data when calling in the form, and keys on a computer are pressed. How hard can it be.

Having spent a few years in an operations management job, mind-meltingly difficult. The devil is in the details. Boy howdy is he ever.

It's a shame personal data is not held more secure :(

And until we have the benevolent database despot in practice, I demand an excess of vigilance.

True. I guess what got to me, was the claim of a totally "unremarkable" guns sale. If he said the customer acted withdrawn, silent etc, it would have sounded more credible to me, and I would just shrugged it off.

Yeah, poor word choice I think.

Yog

Apr 18th, 2007, 09:26:55 PM

If it's of a sensitive nature? Yes. At the very least, up to the discretion of the person volunteering the data to divulge it.

What about collection of biometric data (DNA, fingerprints, iris etc), which is likely to be mandatory for passports in the future. Would you consider that too big of a personal intrusion as well?

Must admit, I enjoy discussing with you. Although, we ran out of stuff to disagree on ;)

Zem-El Vymes

Apr 18th, 2007, 09:56:15 PM

Yes I do. Biometrics scare me a lot. Hell, RFID is enough for me to get jittery, and I hate having a work ID that uses it. I'm sure there are lots of practical uses for it, but we should err on the side of caution, because Moore's Law pulls way harder than ethics or common sense ever have.

Jedi Master Carr

Apr 18th, 2007, 10:49:34 PM

How? On what grounds? He didn't commit a official crime until this incident. You can't just arbitrarily take away someone's civil rights on a hunch. Had a mental health official made an assessment that his state of mind was such that he would be dangerous to himself and others, he could have been committed. Beyond that, there's nothing that could have been done prior to Monday, especially considering the women he reportedly stalked chose not to press charges.

I guess I should have made myself clearer. I think its the parents that should have him commited. After this psychrist told them he was mentally ill and a danger they should have put him in the hospital. He was paranoid delusional which is obvious from the tape. Somebody like that doesn't belong on the streets unless they have medication. Obviously, though that is what he need, medication and therpy could have helped him but he didn't get help. I just wonder what his parents thought? They had to see the warning signs and they could have done something.
Also I am with Yog here the law should be changed even if you are committed voluntarly that should come up when you buy a gun and keep you from buying one. The mentally ill shouldn't be allowed guns.

Zem-El Vymes

Apr 18th, 2007, 11:04:19 PM

I guess I should have made myself clearer. I think its the parents that should have him commited.

He's an adult.

Also I am with Yog here the law should be changed even if you are committed voluntarly that should come up when you buy a gun and keep you from buying one. The mentally ill shouldn't be allowed guns.

Why? You've shown the cognition to put yourself in and seek help. It's a different league from not realizing what you are doing and having the legal system mandate your status.

Jedi Master Carr

Apr 18th, 2007, 11:08:17 PM

He's an adult.

Why? You've shown the cognition to put yourself in and seek help. It's a different league from not realizing what you are doing and having the legal system mandate your status.

He was in a mental hospital that to me should be a white flash. I don't care he voluntarly went there. If that is the case lets any body who was put in a mental instution for whatever reason and let them have guns if they want. Also his parents could have commited him. Just because he is an adult doesn't mean they couldn't sure they would have went to court but I bet they would have won after the psychrists looks at him.

CMJ

Apr 19th, 2007, 12:16:04 AM

I grieve for all those involved. Reading and hearing about the kids who died makes me ill. I feel so awful.

And as monstrous as his actions were - I feel really bad for Cho Seung-Hui. Mental illnesses usually rear their head in the late teens and early 20's. He didn't seem to be close to his family and had few if any friends in highschool.

So here's this kid...immigrated to the States when he was about 8. Probably took a few years of ESL classes to learn to communicate with classmates. He was probably ostracized as a kid and distrusted classmates till he was done with high school.

I had a pretty rough childhood in the way of human interaction. I was definitely a loner...didn't really have any real friends until maybe high school. Constantly picked on....beaten up nearly everyday in 2nd grade. What I regarded as friends in my youth I recognize now as mostly aquantances that put up with me playing(when I was a kid) or hanging out with them as I got older.

Even though I joined a student organization my first year of college it took practically that entire year to feel like I fit in. Those college friendships were probably my first honest to God friends I'd ever had. They also weren't easy for me to accept at first, no matter how much I craved them. I eventually came out of my shell in a big way, but I can still relate to that isolation of thinking no one really likes you(at least I had a good relationship with my folks though).

Bare with me now. It seems Cho was similar to me, but before he could make those connections his mind started to go haywaire. Since he had no real experience of having friends, his illness further distanced him from people. Those folks in college that try to be outgoing and bring you out of your shell were instead seen to be distrustful, maybe having nefarious intentions. Since you never made any friends as a youth you won't listen to anyone when they suggest you need counseling. You don't know how to interact with anyone, provoking girls in unintended ways. Now you think everyone is out to get you, as your mind becomes more and more warped...and you withdraw more and more in....a ticking time bomb.

With his childhood....his mental illness....he never had a chance. I don't even want to consider if I had had some sort of mental disease if I could've turned out like him. His story scares and saddens me greatly.

CMJ

Apr 19th, 2007, 12:27:54 AM

BTW- I don't want to seem like I'm apologizing for what he did(I nearly weep everytime they interview family and friends of the murdered kids)...just trying to wrap my head around my own conflicted emotions towards him.

Yog

Apr 19th, 2007, 05:08:53 AM

^^ I know what you mean. I am sure he felt lost and depressed not having any friends. Although he seemed very determined and angry at the end. Students tried to make contact with him, but he just was not open to that.

Here is some other stuff that happened yesterday:

MINNEAPOLIS - Eight buildings at the University of Minnesota were evacuated Wednesday after a professor discovered a bomb threat.

HUNTERSVILLE, N.C. - A teenager shot and killed himself Wednesday shortly after pointing a handgun at two other students in a high school parking lot, police said.

LAWRENCEVILLE, New Jersey - An 18 year-old student at the Lawrenceville School, a boarding school for high school students, was taken into custody by police on Wednesday afternoon after he waved an air gun out of a dormitory window.

CMJ

Apr 19th, 2007, 08:06:03 AM

^^ I know what you mean. I am sure he felt lost and depressed not having any friends. Although he seemed very determined and angry at the end. Students tried to make contact with him, but he just was not open to that.

As I said he probably had some sort of schizophrenia or extreme case of paranoia or something. I have a friend from school whose younger brother has a type of audio schizophrenia(he'll hear things in noises which he will think are other sounds, frightening him and such). He was normal till he turned about 19 or so. His folks and friends convinced him he needed to get help. He's now heavily medicated and supposedly controlling it to a degree, though he still needs to be supervised alot.

That's fairly normal with these diseases. So if he had no kind of support system when these symptoms started to appear, no friend would be able to convince him see someone else.

Khendon Sevon

Apr 19th, 2007, 09:42:48 AM

I grieve for all those involved.
Even though I joined a student organization my first year of college it took practically that entire year to feel like I fit in. Those college friendships were probably my first honest to God friends I'd ever had. They also weren't easy for me to accept at first, no matter how much I craved them. I eventually came out of my shell in a big way, but I can still relate to that isolation of thinking no one really likes you(at least I had a good relationship with my folks though).

Welcome to your average tech school :)

I'm president of our game development club. We'll get 30 people to a meeting and they'll all be sitting spread out and not talking to one another. By the end of the night I have them all laughing and chatting up a storm ;) But, it's hard. Everyone here was the "best" at their high school, the "brightest" and you can see everyone's ego inflate the minute they get a challenge on some silly subject.

I've literally had to seperate two people arguing over a game idea--one being one of my roommates (he's insane and has no social skills or understanding of the existance of other people) and the other being a kid working on 4 masters degrees at once (probably the same "I'm a Brain God" mentality).

Of course, these people aren't violent. They'd rather take their aggression out through Counter-Strike or some other video game than anything else. Besides, since everyone's a complete and total nerd here, there's very little "picking on" or "making fun of." You're just one of the socially-challenged mob that is the school :)

Rawr.

// End Slight Rant

CMJ

Apr 19th, 2007, 10:04:31 AM

But what I'm saying is if you're socially awkward, but predisoposed to mental illness, you won't have used your college years as the catalyst to get you out of that shell, before it's too late. Then you're gonna see everyone as a threat. Depressives don't usually kill scores of random folks, but they can be very troubled and have hard times dealing with society in general.

Maybe it's because I have a friend whose brother is so sick, but I have a real compassion for folks with mental problems.

CMJ

Apr 19th, 2007, 10:56:30 AM

Best timeline of events of the day. Written as a sort of narrative.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/18/AR2007041802824.html?hpid=topnews

Jedi Master Carr

Apr 19th, 2007, 07:17:58 PM

I agree with you CMJ. I don't think this kid was evil or something. I think if he had gotten help things would have been vastly different. It is sad all around.

Yog

Apr 22nd, 2007, 10:53:54 AM

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/21/us/21guns.html?_r=2&hp&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

According to this article in New York times, the gun purchase happened due to legal technicality, and Cho should not been allowed to buy the gun due to federal law:

WASHINGTON, April 20 — Under federal law, the Virginia Tech gunman Seung-Hui Cho should have been prohibited from buying a gun after a Virginia court declared him to be a danger to himself in late 2005 and sent him for psychiatric treatment, a state official and several legal experts said Friday.

Federal law prohibits anyone who has been “adjudicated as a mental defective,” as well as those who have been involuntarily committed to a mental health facility, from buying a gun.

The special justice’s order in late 2005 that directed Mr. Cho to seek outpatient treatment and declared him to be mentally ill and an imminent danger to himself fits the federal criteria and should have immediately disqualified him, said Richard J. Bonnie, chairman of the Supreme Court of Virginia’s Commission on Mental Health Law Reform.

A spokesman for the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives also said that if Mr. Cho had been found mentally defective by a court, he should have been denied the right to purchase a gun.

The federal law defines adjudication as a mental defective to include “determination by a court, board, commission or other lawful authority” that as a result of mental illness, the person is a “danger to himself or others.”

Mr. Cho’s ability to buy two guns despite his history has brought new attention to the adequacy of background checks that scrutinize potential gun buyers. And since federal gun laws depend on states for enforcement, the failure of Virginia to flag Mr. Cho highlights the often incomplete information provided by states to federal authorities.

Currently, only 22 states submit any mental health records to the federal National Instant Criminal Background Check System, the Federal Bureau of Investigation said in a statement on Thursday. Virginia is the leading state in reporting disqualifications based on mental health criteria for the federal check system, the statement said.

Virginia state law on mental health disqualifications to firearms purchases, however, is worded slightly differently from the federal statute. So the form that Virginia courts use to notify state police about a mental health disqualification addresses only the state criteria, which list two potential categories that would warrant notification to the state police: someone who was “involuntarily committed” or ruled mentally “incapacitated.”

“It’s clear we have an imperfect connection between state law and the application of the federal prohibition,” Mr. Bonnie said. The commission he leads was created by the state last year to examine the state’s mental health laws.

Mr. Bonnie, the director of the University of Virginia Institute on Law, Psychiatry and Public Policy, said his panel would look into the matter. “We are going to fix this,” he said.

“I’m sure that the misfit exists in states across the country and the underreporting exists,” he said.

After two female Virginia Tech students complained about Mr. Cho’s behavior in 2005, he was sent to a psychiatric unit for evaluation and then ordered to undergo outpatient treatment, which would not qualify as an involuntary commitment under Virginia law, Mr. Bonnie said.

“What they did was use the terms that fit Virginia law,” he said. “They weren’t thinking about the federal. I suspect nobody even knew about these federal regulations.”

But Christopher Slobogin, a law professor at the University of Florida who is an expert on mental health, said that under his reading of Virginia law, outpatient treatment could qualify as involuntary commitment, meaning Virginia law should have barred Mr. Cho from buying a weapon as well. Mr. Bonnie said he and the state’s attorney general disagreed with that interpretation.

Mr. Slobogin added that the federal statute “on the plain face of the language, it would definitely apply to Cho.”

A spokesman for the Virginia attorney general’s office declined to comment on Friday, saying only that various agencies were “reviewing this situation.”

Richard Marianos, a spokesman for the federal firearms agency, said Friday that federal and state officials were looking into the question, studying the court proceedings and testimony.

But Mr. Marianos added, “If he was adjudicated as a mental defective by a court, he should have been disqualified.”

Dennis Henigan, legal director at the Brady Center to Prevent Gun Violence, said the oversight on the federal law in Virginia had probably been occurring for some time.

“They may have been doing this for years, just basically assuming, if the guy’s not disqualified under state law, then we don’t have to send anything to the state police,” Mr. Henigan said. “It’s a failure to recognize the independent obligation to the federal law.”

Most states do not follow the letter of the federal law when it comes to the mental health provisions, said Ron Honberg, legal director for the National Alliance on Mental Illness, an advocacy group.

“I suspect if we look at all the requirements that exist for the states, there’s probably a whole lot of them that don’t implement them,” Mr. Honberg said, explaining that the gap often comes from a lack of resources but also because no one is enforcing the requirements.

“When something like this happens, then people start to pay attention to this,” he said.

Representative Carolyn McCarthy, Democrat of New York, has been pushing a bill to require states to automate their criminal history records so computer databases used to conduct background checks on gun buyers are more complete.

The bill would also require states to submit their mental health records to their background check systems and give them money to allow them to do so.

According to gun control advocates, the mental health information currently submitted to the national check system is often spotty and incomplete, something Ms. McCarthy’s bill is designed to address.

Representative John D. Dingell, Democrat of Michigan and a former member of the National Rifle Association’s board of directors, is co-sponsoring the bill, which has twice passed the House only to stall in the Senate. Congressional aides say Mr. Dingell is negotiating with pro-gun groups to come up with language acceptable to them.

“The N.R.A. doesn’t have objections,” Mr. Dingell said in an interview. “There are other gun organizations on this that are problems.”

A spokesman for the rifle association declined to comment Friday on the legislation, but Mr. Dingell said the measure could prevent future tragedies.

“It resolves some serious problems in terms of preventing the wrong people from getting firearms,” he said.