Oh, CIA

[Khendon Sevon]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/01/31/germany.cia/index.html

Yay for us following in the footsteps of a certain individual we overthrew (though, internationally, not locally).

Good to know that kidnapping and torture are part of the American plan to thwart terrorism.

I can feel the glorious radiance of freedom already.

[Park Kraken]

*Shrugs* You gotta do what you gotta do. That doesn't mean I'm happy about it, but, what can you do about it?

[Khendon Sevon]

I don't know. What can you do?

I mean, we're just in America. You know, home of the brave, land of the free.

Too bad politicians ruin democracy.

[Park Kraken]

I don't know. What can you do?

I mean, we're just in America. You know, home of the brave, land of the free.

Too bad politicians ruin democracy.

That's more of a half truth. It is the truth, but in addition to being the home of the brave and the land of the free, it's also several other things that aren't quite as enticing and prideworthy.

And funny statement, seeing as how without politicians there would be no democracy, or any type of ruling goverment type, excepting dictatorships or anarchy.

As for what can you do? I'm not entirely sure why you posted this on SWF. Are you just spreading some news, or do you have an ulterior motive in mind?

[Khendon Sevon]

And funny statement, seeing as how without politicians there would be no democracy, or any type of ruling goverment type, excepting dictatorships or anarchy.


Uh. Wrong. Look at Athenian Democracy. The modern professional politician is a different animal. He's not as checked by the people.

It's now more a means of gaining power than a way to help your fellow citizens or have your voice heard or people you wish to represent heard.



As for what can you do? I'm not entirely sure why you posted this on SWF. Are you just spreading some news, or do you have an ulterior motive in mind?

I'm trying to overthrow the government, clearly.

Yes. Me and my huge army of... eh... roaches. Yes, lots of beetle-battle-warriors of doom.

No, clearly I wanted to start a discussion about our "ratified" government's actions overseas. Not to mention: get opinions from non-Americans. Duh.

[Park Kraken]

I'm just waiting for yet another discussion to devolve into Bush bashing, as it always does on this board. It gets tiresome really. Too bad we can't have a meaningful discussion here.

[Khendon Sevon]

You, sir, are bringing that particular politician into this thread.
No one else.

Besides, the president is the man that's supposed to be in charge of this government. If there are abuses of power underneath him, I blame him. Leaders are responsible for those they command.

Never the less, the citizens are supposed to be the ultimate power here. So, maybe we are all the real problem.

[Ryan Pode]

Uh. Wrong. Look at Athenian Democracy. The modern professional politician is a different animal. He's not as checked by the people.

That's not true. Look at the midterm elections. Not a lot of Republicans got reelected.

And as far as the article is concerned, it's all part of international Espionage. These things happen. The reason you hear about them more often these days is because of global communication.

[Khendon Sevon]

And as far as the article is concerned, it's all part of international Espionage. These things happen. The reason you hear about them more often these days is because of global communication.

I can't believe you're just writing this off. "Oh, it happens."

What would you think if a German agent kidnapped then tortured an American citizen?

[Park Kraken]

You, sir, are bringing that particular politician into this thread.
No one else.

Besides, the president is the man that's supposed to be in charge of this government. If there are abuses of power underneath him, I blame him. Leaders are responsible for those they command.

Never the less, the citizens are supposed to be the ultimate power here. So, maybe we are all the real problem.

It was going to happen sooner or later. Just because I mentioned him by name first doesn't mean anything. The title of president is becoming less of a command rank and more of a scapegoat title for the person to blame for everything. How many people does the president really have control over? A very few, if Congress and the senate has anything to say about it.

And the citizens are the ones that are in control. Unless the politicans were born with that title, or are foreign illegal aliens. Politicans are merely citizens who are elected into positions of power.

[Park Kraken]

I can't believe you're just writing this off. "Oh, it happens."

What would you think if a German agent kidnapped then tortured an American citizen?

Well, American soldiers and contractors are being kidnapped with some regularity over in Iraq. Just recently I think a group of about six or seven soldiers, or was it some months ago, but the story broke recently, that were kidnapped and tortured, then killed by Iraqi Insurgents in borrowed uniforms? I wasn't even angered really that much by it. Maybe ten or even five years ago I would have been, but this is a changing world and this seems to be the norm behavior now.

[Miranda Tarkin]

Guys, I know politics can get heated here, but let's try and not have this threa detoriate with the negativitiy beforehand since that will inevitably lead to places you don't want :)

Okay, back to debating

[Khendon Sevon]

Guys, I know politics can get heated here, but let's try and not have this threa detoriate with the negativitiy beforehand since that will inevitably lead to places you don't want :)

Okay, back to debating

Like a land of cotton candy!? I love cotton candy! Yay!

Anyway.

Park:

You'll note that the person kidnapped was a citizen of a nation that we're allies with. He was also captured in a nation that America has moderately friendly relations with (especially after being the first world power to recognize them by Macedonia instead of FYROM--which is a whole other debate).

It's not the same as an insurgent taking someone who's carrying around an m4a1 and then torturing them.

Actually. No. It is the same thing. That’s the problem. To fight terror, must we become terrorists ourselves?

That fact that you are desensitized to having your freedoms stripped from you and others is a problem for yourself and others. Ask yourself: why don’t I care? Because it’s not happening to you is not a good enough excuse. I know Lebanese, Palestinians, Iranians, and a slew of other people that came to America because they believed we were a place of opportunity where their ideas could flourish. Are we betraying these people?

It is your obligation as a citizen to question your government. I believe Jefferson would agree with me.

And no one should pretend that they select their representatives. To become a political figure you have to fit into a slot of interests, be supported by a political party, and conform to agendas. A politician has to appease corporate interests if they want funding. They must ensure that they don’t lean too askew from religious interests, union interest, corporate interests, or a slew of other factors.

It’s silly. It’s horrible for us. It’s politics in America (though, it’s not exclusive to us; It’s our primary export).

Additionally, the fact that it’s white or black is another problem. Okay, so, 60% of some group vote for a representative and he’s elected. What about that 40%!? That’s not how democracy works! No way!

Luckily, we now have a more level playing field in terms of the 2 parties in government. Still, what if I don’t fit into Republican or Democrat?

Anyway.

I just escaped the entire subject of my initial arguments/discussion points.

Yay politics!

Can’t live without a government (well, you can… unless a wild band of thieves pulls you from your bed at night and kills you), can’t live with them (well, you can… unless they pull you from your bed at night and kill you).

[Park Kraken]

Before I continue, I would like to apologize to Khendon here for my actions. Tonight is an emotional night for me, and I seem to be on edge and insecure. I won't post again until I am over my bout.

[Khendon Sevon]

No worries. Perfectly understandable.

Hope everything is okay.

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

The government should be afraid of the people, not the other way around :mad

[Jaime Tomahawk]

And as far as the article is concerned, it's all part of international Espionage. These things happen. The reason you hear about them more often these days is because of global communication.


And that does NOT make it acceptable. EVER. Full stop, end of story. You should be outraged because it can happen to you unless you make it clear it's not acceptable for your government to be doing these things.


The government should be afraid of the people, not the other way around

More people need to watch that movie

[Ryan Pode]

And that does NOT make it acceptable. EVER. Full stop, end of story. You should be outraged because it can happen to you unless you make it clear it's not acceptable for your government to be doing these things.

Despite what people think, the CIA has it together. The man obviously had some ties to terrorists.

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

More people need to watch that movie

Agreed, it's a fantastic movie. Though to be fair, what I said and what was said in the movie were paraphrased from Thomas Jefferson:

"When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty."

[Jaime Tomahawk]

Despite what people think, the CIA has it together. The man obviously had some ties to terrorists.

Prove it. The fact he is free and not in Gitmo kinda says he doesnt.

And even if he did have some links, it NEVER is an excuse to kidnap someone, subject them to torture and them dump them in the middle of nowhere if you for a moment want to claim that your country is free and the rule of law applies.

[Ryan Pode]

What I was implying with that, was a lot of people blame the CIA for faulty intelligence for the war in Iraq, while their report clearly states that Iraq has no capabilities to produce nuclear weapons and their chemical/biological capacity is relatively minuscule. The truth is, only two senators checked out a copy from the Congressional library and not even the President read the report. As it is, I would rather the CIA accuse one innocent person, then ignore another, that results in the death of three thousand people.

[Khendon Sevon]

I would rather the CIA didn't make any mistakes.

Do you realize that we're feeding the fires? The way to beat terrorism isn't in the dark. If we wrap shadows around it we will lose this conflict.

The People need to know what's happening, what steps are being taken, who's being accused. There need to be open trials. It has to be made public to prevent this from becoming a festering wound. We're promoting new terrorism.

We look like the Evil Empire.

Democracy can only flurish when the people are informed enough to make decisions. If the truth is kept from us we can never act on it.

There you go.

[Jaime Tomahawk]

What I was implying with that, was a lot of people blame the CIA for faulty intelligence for the war in Iraq, while their report clearly states that Iraq has no capabilities to produce nuclear weapons and their chemical/biological capacity is relatively minuscule. The truth is, only two senators checked out a copy from the Congressional library and not even the President read the report. As it is, I would rather the CIA accuse one innocent person, then ignore another, that results in the death of three thousand people.


And just how does that justify the kidnap and torture of anyone?????? "Stop another Sept 11" lead to insanity like Gitmo and extraordinary rendition, that then leads directly down the path of exactly this type of things your country has been against for years.

If your leaders are not getting themselves informed about such important things as say a war, then you need to do something about it, dont you?

Plus, the world was howling about how wrong the Iraq invasion was at very high volume, they SAID exactly the same things at the time that later reports showed were the truth of the situation, hell we had a multipage thread where people like Dutchy and I were howling how it was all wrong, how there was no real evidence etc..... so how can anyone in power say they never had a chance to get the facts? They did, they however chose to ignore them and only see what they wanted to see.

And you want those kind of people to have the power to kidnap and torture? All for the vague notion of stopping Terrorism, which could be stopped with just effective police work within the proper legal framework?

[Ryan Pode]

And just how does that justify the kidnap and torture of anyone?????? "Stop another Sept 11" lead to insanity like Gitmo and extraordinary rendition, that then leads directly down the path of exactly this type of things your country has been against for years.

If your leaders are not getting themselves informed about such important things as say a war, then you need to do something about it, dont you?


When 9/11 happened, I was 13. I have voted in the most recent two elections and I have written both my senators and my congressman on various issues.




And you want those kind of people to have the power to kidnap and torture? All for the vague notion of stopping Terrorism, which could be stopped with just effective police work within the proper legal framework?

It's a call that has to be made then. How many times do you hear of these calls in the field being made that wound up saving lives? You don't. But they happen. They happen all the time.

[Park Kraken]

Hard to say whether or not the man had any ties to terroism. He could have had a suspicious background, could have been a victim of racial profiling, or it could have been that he did something by accident, like donating money to a charity with terroism ties, or knew someone who turned out to be an Al-Qaeda member. Any number of potential things.

I can't help but feel that this discussion relates to 24.