Saddam - Dead

[Liam Jinn]

Well, they hung Saddam earlier, so I hear, just thought I'd share the news. Erm...Hope he had a good Christmas?

[Mitch]

I am not sorry.

[jediSamson]

I knew he would hang around for the weekend, way to hang in there Saddam.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I knew he would hang around for the weekend, way to hang in there Saddam.

LOL well I don't like joking about death, although we could make an exception for him. I don't think it will make a difference at this stage either way.

[Jaime Tomahawk]

Pity they had to kill more than he was responsible for and set a country into civil war to bring him to some vague notion of justice.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Pity they had to kill more than he was responsible for and set a country into civil war to bring him to some vague notion of justice.

I agree, if he had been killed 15 years ago by his own people I think that would be a more important day. This is more of a footnote if anything.

[Veritas]

I don't feel justice served here in any way. The death penalty is barbaric.

[Droo]

I don't feel justice served here in any way. The death penalty is barbaric.

Completely agree. It's also riddled with hypocracy.

[Yog]

I despise death penalty on all levels. I find it barbaric, and don't agree with its use as capital punishment even in this case. For all he has done, I can't say I am sad he is dead though..

You get the sense, even when he was in jail and making a circus in the courtroom, he must have been perceived as threatening and imposing on the common Iraqi person just for being alive. He was probably an inspiration force for the insurgents and terrorists as well. With that chapter finally ended, its one less detrimental force to worry about. The focus now should be to restore order and prevent the country from collapsing into civil war. A very difficult task to say the least.

[Rutabaga]

Pity they had to kill more than he was responsible for and set a country into civil war to bring him to some vague notion of justice.

I agree completely. And although he's gone, ultimately this is going to be nothing more than a blip on the radar. It isn't going to change anything all that much. I'm just filled with a certain amount of dread right now, because as bad as things are in Iraq at this time, I fear that things could get worse in the short term because of retaliatory violence. Saddam Hussein was a terrible, terrible person, but he still had loyal followers, and they won't take his execution lightly. For some, he has become a martyr.

[CMJ]

I'm really torn on the death penalty on a variety of levels. But I can't say Hussein didn't deserve it. Alot of times when serial killers are put to death, or what have you, I have a wierd sense of sadness.

Not last night.

[Khendon Sevon]

Man. There are so many people more deserving of the death pentalty than Saddam. What's the difference? The media and our government focused on him.

Let's try to clean up Africa. There's a pretty nest of vipers.

Execution, the Iraq war... it's all just a show :( and that's sad. Where's Osama B.? Why isn't anyone talking about him?

How about tracking down terrorists in other nations. There's no discussion of that. No, what're we doing? We're making more terrorists. We're putting on shows to divert the attention of the public. We're trying to pretend we didn't fail.

[Kraehe Branwen]

I'm sorry, but I'm all for the death penalty. The families of the people that die at the hands of someone else deserve to know that the person that took that precious life isn't going to have one of his own either. If you can take a life, then you should give up your own as punishment.

Plus I find that the justice system really doesn't get justice when they avoid the death penalty. I have heard about guys that have raped and killed a young women that get off easy with 15 to 25 years. That, to me, isn't enough. They tortured and maimed a human being at the prime of her life and will be able to have their freedom back before they're old and frail? Thats ridiculous! And in Saddam's case, he's responsible for more than just one death. He was a monstrosity that was allowed to walk with his freedom for years before someone decided to take justice. I hope he rots.

[Byl Laprovik]

No. There's only one morally excusable reason to take a life, and that's in the name of self defense. Capital punishment does not fit this requirement.

[Dasquian Belargic]

I'm sorry, but I'm all for the death penalty.

If you want him to rot, let him rot in prison. At least he would be suffering then. If you kill him, he doesn't feel anything anymore and his death certainly won't act as an instant fix for those who have lost family/friends, so it really achieves nothing but to anger people who supported him.

[JMK]

It's a catch-22. I'm glad Saddam isn't a part of this world anymore, but the death penalty is a little harsh if you ask me. On the bright side, no wacko is going to threaten to destroy something, or take valuable hostages unless Saddam is released from prison...

At the end of the day, the world is better off without that monster, but it's too bad the route that was taken to get there. It's unfortunate that he wasn't killed in some sort of bombing years ago in the Gulf War.

[Morgan Evanar]

I'm sorry, but I'm all for the death penalty. The families of the people that die at the hands of someone else deserve to know that the person that took that precious life isn't going to have one of his own either. If you can take a life, then you should give up your own as punishment.Lets conviently forget how wrong investigations can go.

Did Saddam deserve to die? Probably. But I'm not going to make the decision that leads to pulling the trigger. I'm against the death penalty because of the huge margin of human error.

[Park Kraken]

I don't know what to think about the death of Saddam. But about Osama and all that...

I read a poll where people think 2007 will bring death, destruction, and other stuff to the United States. Some people think a confrontation with Iran or North Korea is likely. Personally, if we really want the Afgahnistan or Al-Qaeda/Osama situation resolve, then I think we really need a confrontation with Pakistan.

[Khendon Sevon]

Pff. Why would our government do anything about North Korea or Iran? Let's just say lame duck right now and be done with it.

Pass the buck!

And no, the buck doesn't stop here... err... there *points to the white house* It just keeps getting passed.

And, yes, I'm not for the death penalty. There have been times that innocent individuals have been executed. One time is enough of a reason to stop it.

Europe doesn't execute.

[Kraehe Branwen]

If you want him to rot, let him rot in prison. At least he would be suffering then. If you kill him, he doesn't feel anything anymore and his death certainly won't act as an instant fix for those who have lost family/friends, so it really achieves nothing but to anger people who supported him.

Though I wish to keep this secret, I had been in prison for two weeks(stupid sister actually pressed charges when I got sick of her belittling me after 21 years. If I had known family could do that to family I'd have done it to her when she was abusing me growing up). And aside fro missing my son, prison wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. Free food, no bills, free room and bed.... All the books you can read. He'd have been pampered in prison. I recall seeing Al Capone's cell on some documentary once and it was completely furnished. Guys like him don't suffer in prison. I don't like how my tax money goes to keep scum like him alive for decades. And some prisons that are actually pretty bad fill up and leave no room for the next bad guy who just might be even worse. And from what I can tell, they are lenient with sentencing these days. Dunno if I mentioned it here(debating on other boards as well) but I have heard of guys who kill children and torture them that get 15-25 years only. That makes me sick. I'm glad at least one villian got the right sentence put around HIS neck. There is no chance of parole for that, no chance of escape, and no chance of being able to manipulate others on the outside.

[Byl Laprovik]

Though I wish to keep this secret, I had been in prison for two weeks(stupid sister actually pressed charges when I got sick of her belittling me after 21 years. If I had known family could do that to family I'd have done it to her when she was abusing me growing up). And aside fro missing my son, prison wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. Free food, no bills, free room and bed.... All the books you can read. He'd have been pampered in prison. I recall seeing Al Capone's cell on some documentary once and it was completely furnished. Guys like him don't suffer in prison.

Prisons in Iraq are like prisons in the USA since when?


I don't like how my tax money goes to keep scum like him alive for decades.

It doesn't.


And some prisons that are actually pretty bad fill up and leave no room for the next bad guy who just might be even worse. And from what I can tell, they are lenient with sentencing these days. Dunno if I mentioned it here(debating on other boards as well) but I have heard of guys who kill children and torture them that get 15-25 years only.

Why are you still speaking about the American prison system in context with Saddam Hussein?


That makes me sick. I'm glad at least one villian got the right sentence put around HIS neck. There is no chance of parole for that, no chance of escape, and no chance of being able to manipulate others on the outside.

Fear of escape or parole make absolutely pathetic placeholders for moral virtue. There's nothing gained from the death penalty. It's a zero sum event.

[Kraehe Branwen]

And what exactly is gained from keeping him alive?

[Byl Laprovik]

The moral high ground, and a despot still stuck in the clink for the rest of his life.

[Pierce Tondry]

It's about compassion and not assuming ourselves so morally superior that we are justified in deciding who among our peers lives and dies.

Would you stand in a courtroom and encourage the death penalty for someone you'd watched commit murder? Would you do it if your own son was the one on trial?

We are all somebody's children. Have some compassion for those who have lost their way.

[Droo]

What astounds me is that he was sentenced to death for crimes against humanity, for violating human rights, and that he was hanged. The ultimate of all human rights, is the right to life, and we do not have the right to take it from any man. No-one has that right. The sheer audacity of it astounds me and in my eyes, anyone who believes in the death sentence, who still supports it even in this day and age, has lost all privalages to rant about murderers and dictators and lost the right to flaunt the human rights card whenever it suits them.

[Jaime Tomahawk]

What astounds me is that he was sentenced to death for crimes against humanity, for violating human rights, and that he was hanged. The ultimate of all human rights, is the right to life, and we do not have the right to take it from any man. No-one has that right. The sheer audacity of it astounds me and in my eyes, anyone who believes in the death sentence, who still supports it even in this day and age, has lost all privalages to rant about murderers and dictators and lost the right to flaunt the human rights card whenever it suits them.

It's also disturbing when the sheer numbers of people killed, wounded, made homeless by a war that has no moral basis is added against this one man whom is executed. I dont care what his crimes were - NO country, no person has the right to just roll into another country and cause such death and destruction. For basically now one man who's been hung in a trial that was a travesty of justice.

The incredible thing is that in a fair trial, Saddam would almost certainly be found guilty. But he didnt get one. Why not?

And then you also go to the torture and illegal incarcerations of so called 'terrorists' who are never going to court by countries (including to my disgust, my own) that rolled into another one citing such activities as a reason. Never mind the local allies of said countries in Iraq are going about doing the same as what Saddam and co were accused of as well, seemingly with impunity.

What a screwed up place Iraq is now.

[Kraehe Branwen]

It's about compassion and not assuming ourselves so morally superior that we are justified in deciding who among our peers lives and dies.

Would you stand in a courtroom and encourage the death penalty for someone you'd watched commit murder? Would you do it if your own son was the one on trial?

We are all somebody's children. Have some compassion for those who have lost their way.

Actually I would. If my son murdered someone I'd want him to pay for it just the same. The whole "somebody's son" works both ways ya know. I know that sounds harsh on my part, but I feel that he wasn't trully learning his lesson for what he did locked up in a cell with free food and water and a bed.

[Dasquian Belargic]

I feel that he wasn't trully learning his lesson for what he did locked up in a cell with free food and water and a bed.

But how is he going to learn anything by dying? You can't count on their being some torturous afterlife to give him what he deserves.

[Khendon Sevon]

Bravo Dasq ;)

The point of living a life is to make mistakes and, hopefully, learn from them.

Besides, we ride our high horse now; but, what about America's, Britain's, etc's history of violence against people?

Name drop: Andrew Jackson. Oh, Andrew Jackson. Great and horrible person.

[Pierce Tondry]

Actually I would. If my son murdered someone I'd want him to pay for it just the same. The whole "somebody's son" works both ways ya know. I know that sounds harsh on my part, but I feel that he wasn't trully learning his lesson for what he did locked up in a cell with free food and water and a bed.

It is harsh on your part and also ignorant in a naive way. I'm not sure what your experience in prison was like or how long it was, but there are prisons where the kind of treatment you describe is like a luxury vacation. Some of them are in America, but we are tame by the rest of the world's standards. Mexican prisons are infamous for a reason.

I believe that it is possible to improve the human race without resorting to the death penalty. Publicly sanctioned death is still killing with intent.

[Dasquian Belargic]

I am just listening to the BBC newspod for the day and the Iraqi government is getting stick about not giving him a "dignified execution". That phrase in itself seems a bit of an oxymoron to me.

There was an interesting comment from one Iraqi man saying that Saddam has become a hero in the eyes of many people because of the way he was executed (the taunting that went on, etc). The same man also said something along the lines of the execution being futile in terms of calming down the conflict in Iraq, because it was conducted at an inappropriate time, in the middle of some religious festival.

[Dalamar DeSang]

I agree with Zatania. The law does not hold a sword for nothing. What is a deterent to crime. Do you think Saddam could be rehabilitated? Are you nuts his mentality is not like ours. He has had absolute power for most of his life. His morals and beliefs are not comparable to yours. HE WOULD NEVER change nor would he ever be sorry. EVER. He would wash his feet in the blood of countless innocents and never blink an eye. So what put him in Jail thats JUSTICE? Have him wipe out your mother,Father,sister,brother home everything you have everything you ever dreamed of and then lets see if you agree. Its so easy to say to take it easy. What does it take for the punishment to FIT THE CRIME... WOuld you let hitler also walk...


Thats why America is sick of our courts. We meally mouth and talk and talk and talk until the criminals walk, Criminals get slapped on the wrist. They say hey that wasn't so bad. "I"LL FREAKIN do it again..." I personally hope he swung around an extra time. FOr all the people he hurt,maimed and killed with gleeful hate. I think he got exactly what he deserved.


So anyway aside form all that have a HAPPY new year everyone. I hope none of you have to face anything like this guy on your doorstep and wish everyone well ta ta till later.

[Pierce Tondry]

You're wrong Dal. It isn't easy to advocate restraint. When a person is injured the first instinct they have is to lash out at the source of that pain. Following that instinct is the easy way.

[Nilk]

Here in Canada, we don't have the death penalty. Now here's something interesting: a poll was taken in a high-security prison in the United States and a high-security prison in Canada. The poll asked the if the convicts would commit murder if would benefit them somehow. More people in Canada said yes, because they're only looking at 20 years if they do. A lot of the people in America said they would avoid going as far as murder, because that would mean they themselves would in turn be murdered.

Eye for an eye has it's moral problems, and it is hypocrital. But the effects are undeniable. It keeps people in line. The government has to have substantial power. I'm not saying we leave democracy behind, but the ability to take the lives of it's citizens is in the government's power, and I honestly think Canada's government needs to be a little...tougher, for lack of a better term.

Think of conscription. It may be immoral to send men to their deaths by forcing them into military service, but it has a logical explanation and a logical need. Soldiers are needed. People will obviously not want to go. Therefore, the answer is to make them.

The death penalty may be immoral, it may have it's contradictions and hypocracy, but the fact remains that it works and that it has logical purpose.


The only flaw I admit to seeing in the death penalty is what has been mentioned before: human flaw. An investigation goes wrong, and a man is killed. An innocent man. There is not a debate about this for nothing, there are two sides to the story and each have a valid point, each have a point that makes logical sense. The two options ismply moves toward different logics. Having the death penalty reduces the risk of murder (somewhat ironic, as the death penalty in itself is murder). Having no death penalty reduces the risk of governmental mistakes that are costly both in human life and, often, in currency. The family of the victim is likely to, and has every right to, demand the government's apology for their mistake in the form of money.

I cannot decide which is better, though having the death penalty seems more useful to me. More time is simply required to be put into investigations for which the culprit's punishment is death; a grace period, so to speak. Time to make absolutely sure.

One thing I do not doubt, however, is that Saddam Hussein's death was not something the American government had a right to. His crimes were elsewhere, he was hardly their concern. They found no weapons. They found only yet another war-torn middle-eastern country, like so many others, with oppressed people like so many others. His execution will bring nothing but trouble.

[JMK]

One thing I do not doubt, however, is that Saddam Hussein's death was not something the American government had a right to. His crimes were elsewhere, he was hardly their concern. They found no weapons. They found only yet another war-torn middle-eastern country, like so many others, with oppressed people like so many others. His execution will bring nothing but trouble.


It's about compassion and not assuming ourselves so morally superior that we are justified in deciding who among our peers lives and dies.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but was Hussein not tried in his own country, according to his country's laws? I'm not sure what either of your comments mean. Niik said that the American government had no right to bring about Hussein's death. Well, you're right...and the last time I checked, he wasn't executed by the United States. Same thing with Pierce's comments...we did not decide Saddam's fate. As far as I know, he was tried and executed according to Iraqi law.

If so many people want American and UN soldiers pulled out of Iraq to let them sort things out for themselves, then they should be left alone to implement their laws as they see fit, for better or worse.

Like I said in my earlier post, I'm not down with the death penalty either, but our laws are our laws, and Iraqi laws belong to Iraqis.

[Jaime Tomahawk]

but the fact remains that it works and that it has logical purpose

No, it has never worked it does not make sense, it has never been a deterrent. And it could be also pointed out that the death rates in countries WITHOUT the death penalty are lower than those with. A country like Australia has well ..... a murder in a place of 20 million actually makes big news, even if its across the other end of the continent, because it's rare. Death penalty? Nope. But still, murder is a rare thing and usually it's not premeditated.

When people murder, they dont think of the consequences when they are doing the act. They do so usually out of anger or passion, or in the heat of the moment. The death penalty would never stop these ones. And the premeditated ones? Heh, well the people doing it would do it anyway.

Australia is proof that you can have a society without a body count and also without the death penalty.

And lets not also get onto how innocent people have been proven to have been executed. Justice is not perfect, but I sure dont think ANY justification for the death penalty can make up for the fact you get it wrong, you kill someone innocent. And that's not excusable in any way shape or form.



They found only yet another war-torn middle-eastern country

Very, VERY wrong. The invasion created one. Beforehand, Iraq was somewhat peaceful and under control, now it's a hellhole ripping itself apart.

http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7006040329

Just a bit of somethign interesting about a study the state of New Jersey did inregards to the death penalty.

[Pierce Tondry]

Same thing with Pierce's comments...we did not decide Saddam's fate. As far as I know, he was tried and executed according to Iraqi law.

Read my earlier statement with a generic "we" and you will understand it better.

[Dalamar DeSang]

Jaimie Tomahawk "When people murder, they dont think of the consequences when they are doing the act. They do so usually out of anger or passion, or in the heat of the moment. The death penalty would never stop these ones. And the premeditated ones? Heh, well the people doing it would do it anyway."

So they should get a slap on the wrist? WHERE is the justice in that. Because they are going to do it anyway! We should what? Let them do it! If someone steals from you you expect restitution. If that is so obvious an answer. Why is there no restitution for the stealing of a life. These laws ARE a deterant. people don't go out and steal because they know there are laws. Those that do know they are BREAKING a law. Laws keep society in check. That is why goverment is established to help give ORDER. I'm not talking about lashing out in revenge motivated slaying. But even if I where sometime revenge and justice are the same thing. JUSTICE is the High Moral ground. Your establishing peace and saying that MURDER is NOT tolerated. THose that break these laws will PAY.. THose that don't pay encourage others to break the same law to push the same limits and to hurt more people.

[Nilk]

JMK & Jaime: I understand both your points. I myself was not aware that Saddam was tried by Iraqi law, or aware of what Jaime showed about Iraq prior to American invasion, so I also thank you for enlightening me on those subjects. I followed the Iraq-war business only lightly.

Jaime, I understand that the death penalty's risk of hurting innocents is a great thing to consider. But remember that I myself am still undecided, I only said that I find the death penalty more useful. Morally, it is very obvious which one is on the higher ground, with the hypocracy and "eye-for-an-eye" evident in the death penalty.

The claim that it does not work, backed up by the facts in Australia, is a valid point. However, as Dalamar said, there is a lack of justice in merely sending them to jail for a limited amount of time.

If some sort of balance is to be achieved, I would say that all murderers should be sent to jail for their entire life. This is like the death penalty and provides justice, because their life is ruined and they have no more potential, they simply live on in misery or at the very least discomfort. The death penalty ends their punishment all too quickly to be fully justice, because one must remember the damage done to their family members as well.

We cannot be too extrememe or too leviant in the justice system. In my opinion, America is in many places too extreme and Canada too leviant, to show examples.

[Dasquian Belargic]

These laws ARE a deterant. people don't go out and steal because they know there are laws.
I think there's a pretty big difference here, between theft and murder.

If justice is the high moral ground, then an eye for an eye isn't the way to go, as far as I'm concerned, because by killing another human being you are stooping in terms of morals. Who learns anything from that kind of punishment?

People will go on murdering other people regardless of whether or not Saddam Hussein, or any other murderer (mass or otherwise), is executed. Like Jaime said, potential murderers aren't going to see this and have a sudden change of mind or crisis of conscience.

Look at all the countries in the world that don't use the death penalty. Do you see them swarming with murderers? No. People know that murder is not tolerated - but you are always going to have total nutjobs who just don't give a damn either way.


If some sort of balance is to be achieved, I would say that all murderers should be sent to jail for their entire life. This is like the death penalty and provides justice, because their life is ruined and they have no more potential, they simply live on in misery or at the very least discomfort. The death penalty ends their punishment all too quickly to be fully justice, because one must remember the damage done to their family members as well.

Exactly.

[Pierce Tondry]

IIRC, legal punishment was not found to be a deterrent to crime because the odds of a professional criminal getting caught and sentenced were very slim. The opportunity to reduce a sentence through legal means further degrades the deterrent effect.

Personally I'd like sentence reductions to be far less used and punishments to be harsher, but I am not a legal or criminal expert and don't know how that would affect the current system.

[Jaime Tomahawk]

Jaimie Tomahawk "When people murder, they dont think of the consequences when they are doing the act. They do so usually out of anger or passion, or in the heat of the moment. The death penalty would never stop these ones. And the premeditated ones? Heh, well the people doing it would do it anyway."

So they should get a slap on the wrist? WHERE is the justice in that. Because they are going to do it anyway! We should what? Let them do it! If someone steals from you you expect restitution. If that is so obvious an answer. Why is there no restitution for the stealing of a life. These laws ARE a deterant. people don't go out and steal because they know there are laws. Those that do know they are BREAKING a law. Laws keep society in check. That is why goverment is established to help give ORDER. I'm not talking about lashing out in revenge motivated slaying. But even if I where sometime revenge and justice are the same thing. JUSTICE is the High Moral ground. Your establishing peace and saying that MURDER is NOT tolerated. THose that break these laws will PAY.. THose that don't pay encourage others to break the same law to push the same limits and to hurt more people.

Since when is prison a "slap on the wrist"?????. And since when did I suggest anything that you just said? The simple fact is we DO punish those who murder.

I simply said the death penalty is NOT a deterrent and it does not work.


However, as Dalamar said, there is a lack of justice in merely sending them to jail for a limited amount of time.

What, locking them away for 20 - 40 years isnt justice? That's what most murderers get.


If some sort of balance is to be achieved, I would say that all murderers should be sent to jail for their entire life.

Look up the actual average times murderers get and then serve. It's not a handful of years and even more in Australia when you get life.... you get life.

A maximum security prision is no holiday farm. And if the person is a real scumbag they get SuperMax. Ever read up on those places? Frankly if a murderer got the choice of SuperMax or death, they would pick death as a SuperMax is truly a hellhole that only true scum get.

[Byl Laprovik]

Have him wipe out your mother,Father,sister,brother home everything you have everything you ever dreamed of and then lets see if you agree. Its so easy to say to take it easy. What does it take for the punishment to FIT THE CRIME... WOuld you let hitler also walk...

Dal, as somebody who's had a close friend murdered and had to answer that personal question, I arrived at my moral resoluteness in rejecting the death penalty. So yes, it is certainly possible. Perhaps even probable.

[Dalamar DeSang]

Well I am sorry for the loss of your friend. I am not advocating lack of forgiveness. Nor am I saying to punish an act of passion on a normally good person. I'm talking about killers, People who have time after time proven that they are predators. people like Saddam with no remorse no regret. Who's mentality is that he has a right to kill and maim. People that are not sorry or didn't do it over a jealous flare up.


As an answer to Jaimie


I simply said the death penalty is NOT a deterrent and it does not work. Lol I really have to learn how to do the quote box.. but anyway.

If the penalty is death. How can that person who is a murderer murder again. He can't thats a pretty good deterent. Saddam Hussein is pretty detered right now. Though I know that is not what you meant. I thought I would throw that in there. Have a good one all.

[Droo]

Edited out my post because this discussion is only serving to annoy me.

[Byl Laprovik]

Well I am sorry for the loss of your friend. I am not advocating lack of forgiveness. Nor am I saying to punish an act of passion on a normally good person. I'm talking about killers, People who have time after time proven that they are predators. people like Saddam with no remorse no regret. Who's mentality is that he has a right to kill and maim. People that are not sorry or didn't do it over a jealous flare up.

I never asked my friend's killer if he was sorry or not, because it doesn't effect my thoughts on what the law should do with him. There is nothing set right about putting him to death. It's convenient, but it isn't right.