VOTE: November 7th is tomorrow!

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Its not a presidential election year, but all you legal American citizens better get off your complacent butts and get yourself to the voting booths tomorrow. :shakefist

The hubby and I are going over our ballots tonight (In Oregon everyone votes by mail - we'll drop them off at a drop box tomorrow morning).

[Karl Valten]

I'm not eighteen yet.:cry

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Some day you'll be able to join in our great democracy. ;) Patience, my friend.

[Jedieb]

Bet your kierster I'll be out there early tomorrow morning casting mine. Long live Democracy.

[Morgan Evanar]

Ugh I have to get up early. Vote for national gridlock, that's when our nation does it's best!

[Lilaena De'Ville]

I just filled out my ballot - though we have a few judges to vote on and I need to read up on them. Maybe during the commercial breaks of Heroes (speaking of, I'm off to watch :D).

[Sanis Prent]

I wish I lived in a battleground state, because when people assume that a state like mine is going to fall straight ticket, it makes researching individual issues on individual candidates at the local level a little messy. Nobody bothers to advertise here. The closest thing I saw was a big neon sign demanding that I vote straight ticket Republican.

I love my state, but there are things I wish would go away.

[Khendon Sevon]

I'd have to go home to vote (I'm not registered in Hoboken).

Bah to that. It doesn't matter. This is Jersey. Everything's pre-decided ;)

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Remember, if you don't vote you're not allowed to whine about politics all year. :shakefist

[Jedi Master Carr]

I voted, I wish I lived in a state that was a battleground. Nothing big going on here except governor.

[CMJ]

I voted. I'm more interested in alot of our propositions than the statewide races.

[Ryan Pode]

Voted absentee a week ago. I am happy that the commercials will cease though.

[Zem Vymes]

I voted Batman for my house rep. Seriously.

[Figrin D'an]

I voted Batman for my house rep. Seriously.

Approved.


Voted after work today. Turnout seemed pretty strong for an off-year election. Like CMJ, I'm more interested in the results of the initiatives we had on our ballet than a lot of the seat races.

[Morgan Evanar]

If you can vote and did not you are a butt.

[Jedieb]

I just heard the gay bashing Marriage amendment will probably pass in VA. Ughh. Allen has an early lead on Webb.

[Ryan Pode]

Only 4% has been reported. And I'm guessing its none of the more densely populated regions. I hope the gay marraige amendment doesn't pass.

[Zem Vymes]

Allen is looking like he's going to take it.

Virginia, you're the new Florida, I swear.

[Pierce Tondry]

It's not our fault.

Well, not my fault anyway.

[Rutabaga]

My sister lives in Virginia, so I wanna yell at her if Allen really does get elected. Although my sister never votes. She never complains, either, but still...oh, it so disappoints me that she doesn't care.

I went over to permanent absentee status about 5 years ago, so I mailed my ballot last week. California's ballot sucked, it was so long :x.

[Pierce Tondry]

You have a sister in Virginia?

Well if you will not join us then perhaps she will!

[Ryan Pode]

Allen's lead is diminishing. If he does win, it'll be by less than five thousand votes.

[Jedieb]

Allen's lead is now about 10,000 with around 4% left to report. Every county that I've seen that's yet to finish reporting is one in which Webb is leading. He's cutting into the lead with each of these updates. I just heard it's down to 7,000 so we're probably looking at a state paid recount requested by the loser. Man, this is going down to the wire.

[Ryan Pode]

And absentee ballots haven't been counted fully yet, either.

[Jedieb]

With 2.5% left it's down to 4726. Holy crap this is going to be ridiculously close and I doubt it'll be called tonight.

[Morgan Evanar]

Holy moly VA. Way to have a close race.

[Jedieb]

http://sbe.vipnet.org/index.htm

Now it's down to around 3,100. Whoever finishes ahead tonight, they'll have only a 4 digit lead.

[Jedieb]

One thing is for, just like CMJ told me just last night, the Dems have taken the House by a sizable margin.

[Ryan Pode]

The last 2.43% just doesn't want to report in. RAH! The suspense is killing me.

[Ryan Pode]

I spoke too soon.

[Jedieb]

Holy crap! Less than 1% and it's down to 1757!!!!!!!

[Jedieb]

Wow, MSNBC has Webb ahead by 2,400 now!

[Ryan Pode]

Whoa! What?!

[Jedi Master Carr]

Yep Webb is leading. Tester is over Burns by a lot right now. If Webb holds on, it is going to come down to Missouri, IMO.

[Jedieb]

Looks like Webb will end the night ahead. The question is by how much. Even with VA, I think the Dems will fall one seat shy in the Senate. Either way, Bush is going to have to swallow some crow tomorrow. The country sent him a loud message today.

[Ryan Pode]

Still, I'd like to see 99.5% reported, before I call it a Webb victory.

[Jaime Tomahawk]

Dear America,

With much thanks we note you regained your collective sanity again

Sincerly Yours,

The Rest of the World

[Jedieb]

"Well, at least we stopped the gays from getting married." "I'm a Bible voter."

These were the responses from a colleague of mine when I joked "It was fun watching you guys get rolled last night." She wasn't joking however and that's yet another reason why evangelicals give me the creeps sometimes. Yep, you taught those evil gay people a lesson last night! I'm sure they'll all stop having evil gay sex in Virginia now. I mean, look how well the Bible helped Haggard control himself! Anyway.....

Webb is leading in Virginia by over 6,000 votes and in Montana Tester leads Burns. If both of those hold then the Dems get the majority of the Senate as well. The Dems won big last night, but in some ways, Washington got a lot more conservative last night. Many of the Democrats that won last night were moderate Democrats. This is a good thing, moderates of either party are the ones who can get things done. Unfortunately, the Republicans who got slaughtered throughout the northeast were mostly moderate Republicans. Meaning the GOP has that many fewer concilliatory voices than before. Bipartisan talk will last about two weeks before the Democratic Congress starts using supeona powers to b-slapp the administration on everything from the running of the war to energy policy. Gridlock, here we come!

This isn't really a bad thing. Gridlock forces both sides to come to some kind of middle ground. Without that you get a deficit around 9 Trillion and this Charlie Foxtrot in Iraq. Can't wait to hear Bush at 1PM. Time to eat some crow Dubya.

[Park Kraken]

Virginia, you're the new Florida, I swear.

While I'm not following political events in Virginia, speaking of Florida, I think the sunshine state renamed it's self the sign state for the past few weeks. I've never seen so many political signs in my life, although bumper stickers are strangely absent. Anyways I voted, and I'm not sure who won. Probably Crist.

[Ryan Pode]

I'm calling it Webb. With an eight thousand person lead. Jeez, that's close. At least there was a respectable voter turnout.

[Zem Vymes]

Good morning guys :)

What a great morning :)

[Rod Stafford]

You know, I was hooked last night, watching the events unfold until 6am my time. Generally, this does seem like a turn for the better but the one thing that concerns me is the way in which the Democrats are claiming change will occur with regards to Iraq but they've actually taken no real stance on the issue. It's true that the situation is very delicate and they can't start mouthing off their policy on it without working with the Republicans first, which they stressed last night, but part of me wonders how much was the "Change in Iraq" element of their campaign merely anti-Republican propaganda, playing to the majority's interests.

In any case, those "Bible Voters" harping on about victory over "The Gays" are just absolute retards and should check their brains in at their next Bible-bashing brainwash session. It truly disturbs me that there still exists such a great absense of free thought in the modern world. But for the Democrats and for all you guys, the best of luck for the future.

[Zem Vymes]

I'm rootin for Tester mighty hard. I want me some Western Democrats ok. It's blue I can vote for with a clean concience :)

[Zem Vymes]

http://panicked.org/sa/santorum.jpg

CRY, YES CRY! YOUR TEARS ARE DELICIOUS!!!

[Park Kraken]

Results for Florida Voting:

With 95% percent counted, here are the major results:

U.S. Senate - B. Nelson (D) 60% win
U.S. House Dis. 5 - V. Brown-Waite (R) 60% win
U.S. House Dis. 12 - A. Putnam (R) 69% win
U.S. House Dis. 15 - D. Weldon (R) 56% win
State Governer - C. Crist (R) 52% win
Attorney General - B. McCollum (R) 52% win
Chief Financial Officer - A. Sink (D) 54% win
Comissioner of Agriculture - C. Bronson (R) 57% win
State Senate Dis. 10 - R. Storms (R) 52% win
State House Dis. 63 - S. McKeel (R) 60% win
State House Dis. 79 - F. Attkisson (R) 65% win

As for Amendments, every single one of them passed, names being State planning and budget process, Require 60 percent support for constitutional amendments, increase tobacco education funds, increase homestead exemptions, homestead tax break for permanently disabled veterans, and restrict private property transfers taken by eminent domain.

[CMJ]

About half the propositions I voted on went along with how I voted, and about half didn't. I was pretty irritated we didn't put any restriction on eminent domain, I was sure that was gonna pass. Any the alternative fuel measure I was shocked didn't pass.

But I did have my victories elsewhere. ;)

[Zem Vymes]

And Rumsfeld is now resigning????

OH JOY

[Figrin D'an]

Yeah, Rumsfeld it out it appears. It's being reported that former CIA director Robert Gates is going to replace him.


Edit: Just saw part of Bush's press conference... was rather shocking to see him admit that the "thumping" taken by the Republican party in the election was a message that his administration needs to change. Was also shocking to see that he basically broke ranks with his own vice president in the choice of Gates to replace Rumsfeld. Maybe he's finally starting to listen to his father's advice a little more than Cheney's.

[Zem Vymes]

Wow, Bush got annihilated in that press conference, and is now turning on his own ranks, including Cheney and Rove.

This is just golden.

[CMJ]

Wow, Bush got annihilated in that press conference, and is now turning on his own ranks, including Cheney and Rove.

This is just golden.

I didn't think he got annhilated at all. But I am definitely happy he is seeming to go more along with his dad's philosophies, who I quite liked.

[Zem Vymes]

You must've watched a different conference CMJ. He got basically thrown to the lions over lying to everybody's faces in his assurances of keeping Rumsfeld on board, only to suddenly cut him off a week later?

That's total BS, and everybody in that room threw him on the coals for it.

[CMJ]

I think you watched the PC thru blue colored glasses. I thought the prez did a pretty decent job. Hell I haven't been that impressed with him in the past. I didn't vote for the man either time, just to let you know. But I felt he was conciliatroy. He threw some of his own guys under the bus...he was funny....he had some fire, but he knew he'd been beaten. If he'd said something like "Damn it all, full speed ahead" - then I'd think he was being the same old guy.

Basically he's the Governor I remember in Texas(who was VERY popular back in the day when we both lived there) and not the President he tuned into.

[Zem Vymes]

I'm no pundit for the mules here. He probably would've gotten out of this in one piece if he didn't stick around for the Q&A. He got roasted, seriously.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I think Webb will hold on. I am sure Allen will be stubborn and try to get a recount, but there are too many votes to make up. So Democrats will have both the House and Senate. It is interesting to see him fire Rumsfield. Still, I want to see if he works with the Democrats. I am not 100% sure he will. Maybe he will, I guess we will see in Janurary.

[Zem Vymes]

Everybody's calling VA for Webb now. Awesome.

[Rutabaga]

I was on one of the wings at our hospital today, happened to turn around and see a patient's TV tuned to one of the news channels, and saw the words RUMSFELD RESIGNS at the bottom. I nearly fell over, I was so shocked, and so happy. I then went into a co-worker's office and literally jumped up and down with joy :rollin.

Out here in California, the only thing I have to complain about is why the people of this state keep voting for bond issues when there are already so many outstanding bonds that haven't even been sold or acted on yet. I swear, every single election we're voting for more bonds for schools. Stop it already! Don't people realize that when they vote for bonds, they're voting the state into debt??? And from what I read in the paper this morning, the bonds voted on yesterday were record breakers when it comes to imposing debt. :shakefist

[Rutabaga]

http://panicked.org/sa/santorum.jpg

CRY, YES CRY! YOUR TEARS ARE DELICIOUS!!!

That's kind of mean, but considering that's Rick Santorum, well, boo hoo. :evil

[Park Kraken]

That's kind of mean, but considering that's Rick Santorum, well, boo hoo. :evil

Does it matter? She probably got a new tow for crying on cue. It's all staged in politics.

[Jaime Tomahawk]

Does it matter? She probably got a new tow for crying on cue. It's all staged in politics.


And people accuse ME of being overly cynical?????

[Jedi Master Carr]

Rich Santorum was the one I was most happy to see leave. I am glad Webb won. So both Houses will belong to the democrats now.

[Morgan Evanar]

Gridlock! Yesssssssssssssssss.

[Byl Laprovik]

And people accuse ME of being overly cynical?????

This is Rick Santorum we're talking about. He's either that evil, or he's that crazy. Either/Or.

[Jaime Tomahawk]

This is Rick Santorum we're talking about. He's either that evil, or he's that crazy. Either/Or.

I have more than a passing knowledge of USA politics, but in the main the names mean nothing. Who is this guy?

[Yog]

I have more than a passing knowledge of USA politics, but in the main the names mean nothing. Who is this guy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Santorum#Controversial_statements_regarding_h omosexuality

He is apparently imfamous for outragous comments on gay / same sex marriage etc.

[Byl Laprovik]

That, and "Vote for me, or DIE IN AN ISLAMOFASCIST NUCLEAR FIRE!"

[Park Kraken]

I just came across this article today, and it reminds me of a certain episode of Robot Chicken:

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/IRAQ?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=HOME

It just goes to show that there are very negative results as well as positive ones for the people who choose to break ranks with the residing president. In this way, it turns into encouragement for our enemies.

[Pierce Tondry]

I don't really care what people like that think. No intelligent American will either. Their and my primary concern should be on doing what is best for the US.

[Jaime Tomahawk]

I just came across this article today, and it reminds me of a certain episode of Robot Chicken:

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/IRAQ?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=HOME

It just goes to show that there are very negative results as well as positive ones for the people who choose to break ranks with the residing president. In this way, it turns into encouragement for our enemies.

Oh right, so with all the good reasons to give Bush a right butt kicking at the voter booth, the economic polices gone awry, the restrictions in personal freedoms, an ill advised and pointless war in Iraq that people like myself and Dutchy have been proven to have been 100% right about, you seriously want people to give a damn what some carpet banging impotent cave dweller thinks?

Shut up with the neo-con stupidity, because the correct way to show terrorists cant win is to ignore them. And frankly, the American public gave the terrorists a big fat finger and a chance for Congress to stop the Neo-con policeies that have been a huge boon for terrorists.

[Park Kraken]

Shut up with the neo-con stupidity, because the correct way to show terrorists cant win is to ignore them. And frankly, the American public gave the terrorists a big fat finger and a chance for Congress to stop the Neo-con policeies that have been a huge boon for terrorists.

Oh yeah, because we all know ignoring the terroists worked so damn well when 9/11 came around. Everyone thinks that just because we ignore a problem, it will go away. I'm suprised that you can't handle the reality of the situation.

[Dasquian Belargic]

To be honest, ignoring them probably would have worked better than the course of action the US government actually took... which doesn't really appear to have achieved much at all, besides inciting more violence and death.

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

Like poking a hornet's nest.

[Park Kraken]

Eh, we've put a large dent in their capabilities and forced them to largely focus on the home front rather than carrying their war of terror overseas. Right now they are reduced to using car bombs and roadside bombs, which can mostly be easily built and easily operated.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Well you ignore statements like that. They are just trying to stir up trouble and also draw attention to themselves. Sure you pursue them but you don't become a dictatorship and say we aren't changing governments or by voting Democrats the terrorists have won.

[Jaime Tomahawk]

Oh yeah, because we all know ignoring the terroists worked so damn well when 9/11 came around. Everyone thinks that just because we ignore a problem, it will go away. I'm suprised that you can't handle the reality of the situation.

Have you by chance seen the utter mess your government has created in Iraq and directly lead to more people wanting to become terrorists? How on earth have you not seen that?

Now as to the fact you misunderstood what ignore meant, it did not mean you stop hunting person's responsible. It means you do not let it change your way of life, your thinking, you do not let yourself live under a cloud of fear.


Eh, we've put a large dent in their capabilities and forced them to largely focus on the home front rather than carrying their war of terror overseas. Right now they are reduced to using car bombs and roadside bombs, which can mostly be easily built and easily operated.

What exactly did the Sept 11 terrorists use?

19 men. They did not need anything else.

The fact is, terrorists in actuality only need one resource - determined people. That is all. The Bush's stupid war on Terror has in fact given Al-Quada a much larger pool of exactly that. None of the polices for 'security' have done anything to stop terrorists operating in your country if they so wanted.

If the Bush admin had done the right thing and done the job properly in Afghanistan, had NOT invaded Iraq and lead to a far greater problem than one dictactor, THEN Al-Quada's ability to operate would have been curtailed. It has not been, it has been increased and it's only luck that there hasnt been another attack on mainland USA - the chances of one has been increased because of the larger pool of willing people.

I might also point out that terrorist's normal modus operandi has been car bombs for a long time. Reduced to that level? Wrong, it's preferred because it's so easy and so effective, which was the only correct thing you have pointed out.

[Park Kraken]

What exactly did the Sept 11 terrorists use?

19 men. They did not need anything else.

Your leaving out quite a few resources. Let us not forget the intensive education and training needed for the men to scout out their objectives, learn to fly the airliners, smuggle them into the country, get them set-up, and then have them carry out their mission. That was then. Now, most of the terroists, rather than going through training camps and recieving high education as needed in order to inflict a maximum amount of damage, simply are told where to drive their cars and how to push the red button.


If the Bush admin had done the right thing and done the job properly in Afghanistan,

So what? When all the terroists fled into Pakistan, are you saying that you would support a full invasion of Pakistan, a nuclear-armed country, instead of invading Iraq? We did what we could in Afghanistan.


THEN Al-Quada's ability to operate would have been curtailed. It has not been, it has been increased and it's only luck that there hasnt been another attack on mainland USA - the chances of one has been increased because of the larger pool of willing people.

Yes, but only locally to their operations centers are the chances and numbers of attacks increased, and that is to be expected. What you don't see are attacks abroad in the other continents anymore. Instead you see terroist alerts being broadcasted, weapons stockpiles found, suspects arrested, kudos to the British in their excellent work in that area, and so forth. So while Al-Qaeda may have a greater local ability to operate, their overseas operating ability has been significantly curtailed.


I might also point out that terrorist's normal modus operandi has been car bombs for a long time. Reduced to that level? Wrong, it's preferred because it's so easy and so effective, which was the only correct thing you have pointed out.

I should have pointed out that they were reduced back to that level from using Anthrax, airplanes, and trains as their choices for making attacks.

[Jaime Tomahawk]

:words:

Your repeating words said by others that have already been disproved by men much better than I. You dont have a scrap of proof to back up your assertions, yet the counter proof is on the table in the reality we have today. Al-Quada's ability to influence minds is much greater due to the actions of the Bush Admin, Afghanistan has a resurgent Taliban and Al-Quaida, Iraq is a rallying point for those who want to blow stuff.

The point you just dont get and it looks like you just wont get is that you can not stop determined men. The real way to stop terrorism is to deny it reasons to exist and limit it to a few loonies in caves, to not give determined men the reason to kill others. Frankly, you keep on missing that your own country's actions has given Al-Quaida all they wanted and their ability to operate with more supporters is greater than it was before the Iraq invasion. And that it has also given them the best resource of all - detirmined men.

[Liam Jinn]

Your repeating words said by others that have already been disproved by men much better than I. You dont have a scrap of proof to back up your assertions, yet the counter proof is on the table in the reality we have today. Al-Quada's ability to influence minds is much greater due to the actions of the Bush Admin, Afghanistan has a resurgent Taliban and Al-Quaida, Iraq is a rallying point for those who want to blow stuff.

The point you just dont get and it looks like you just wont get is that you can not stop determined men. The real way to stop terrorism is to deny it reasons to exist and limit it to a few loonies in caves, to not give determined men the reason to kill others. Frankly, you keep on missing that your own country's actions has given Al-Quaida all they wanted and their ability to operate with more supporters is greater than it was before the Iraq invasion. And that it has also given them the best resource of all - detirmined men.

All right, I get it. Determined men - whatever. You think we're not sending determined men over there? I believe my country has made some mistakes, but we're still in Iraq, just deal with it. I don't understand how talking about what we could've done helps anything that's happening at the moment. Maybe if we gave everyone cupcakes, everyone would like us blah blah. There will always be people that hate us enough to do something drastic about it, but as of this moment they seem to be localized in a warzone, that's honestly to me, better than the homefront.

[Morgan Evanar]

I can't believe you buy that. The war zone is making more people that hate us. We've screwed up, and the best thing we can do is get out before more of our men and women die for nothing.

[Liam Jinn]

I can't believe you buy that. The war zone is making more people that hate us. We've screwed up, and the best thing we can do is get out before more of our men and women die for nothing.

We're in a war, what do you expect? People throwing roses at us? And I understand the whole 'cut and run' thought, and even though it sounds good for us, I don't think it's right on our part. I can't believe you buy that our men and women are dying for nothing. Helping a country in chaos, should not just be dismissed as a hopeless cause. Now I'm not saying we weren't the cause of the chaos, but we should at least take responsiblities for our actions.

[Morgan Evanar]

We're in a war, what do you expect? People throwing roses at us? And I understand the whole 'cut and run' thought, and even though it sounds good for us, I don't think it's right on our part. I can't believe you buy that our men and women are dying for nothing. Helping a country in chaos, should not just be dismissed as a hopeless cause. Now I'm not saying we weren't the cause of the chaos, but we should at least take responsiblities for our actions.And do what? What do you expect to accomplish by staying there? How is it going to stop a civil war there? The only thing that is going to happen is more people are going to die, and, even though it is the Bush Administration's fault (and by extension this country's), I'd rather it not be our men and women.

[Liam Jinn]

I'm not saying we're going to stop the civil war by staying there, but I don't think it's fair to just leave Iraq to deal with the mess we helped create. I'd rather not have our people dying over there, that I can agree with, but we owe it to the Iraqi people to try and keep what peace we can. I don't have a solution to the problem at hand, and I don't pretend to. But I can't see how leaving makes it any better for them.

[Park Kraken]

Iraq is a black hole right now. It's best that we not get sucked down it even farther than what we already are. This civil war has been brewing for decades, perhaps the reason Saddam was so brutal was because he was trying to keep his people from warring with each other. I've certainly read more than one article that points that out.

On the other hand, if we pull out now, Iraq will probably turn into the next Nazi Germany or Soviet Union, with us instead of the smaller European nations as the target.

What to do, What to do....

Jaime, Morgan, Liam, any thoughts on what we should do now?

[Jedieb]

We went on and on about the war before it started. Unfortunately, those of us who opposed it turned out to be right. People can use whatever term they want now; "cut and run", "phased reduction", whatever. The point is, it's time to wake up and realize it's not going to be better, PERIOD.

We're not going to leave Iraq until Bush is out of office. This is his legacy and he's not going to be the one to pull the plug. Frankly, I'm stunned that he dumped Rummy and started bringing in some of his father's advisors. Advisors, who almost to a man, OPPOSED the invasion of Iraq. I was actually impressed by his firing of Rummy. Of course, if a Dem did something we'd be listening to cries of "flip-flop"! all day and night on FOX. So, until we get a Democrat or a moderate Republican who hasn't already sold his soul to the war effort, we're stuck there and looking at 4,000-10,000 deaths and tens of thousands of wounded. That's just on our side. The Sunnis and Shites will keep battling American troops and each other. It's not going to stop and there's nothing our presence there can do to stop it.

Get out and let the civil war begin.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I think we should go with the Bosnia model. We need to split the country into three automontous provinces. Go to the UN, bring in peace keepers to secure the peace. It worked in Bosnia and those people hated each other longer than the people in Iraq have.

[Byl Laprovik]

Somehow, I don't think Anbar province or any of the other Sunni areas are gonna like that at all.

Also, you think you can make UN peacekeeprs work in a hell hole like that? You can't get them to work reliably in a somewhat calmed down zone, forget this mess.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Somehow, I don't think Anbar province or any of the other Sunni areas are gonna like that at all.

Also, you think you can make UN peacekeeprs work in a hell hole like that? You can't get them to work reliably in a somewhat calmed down zone, forget this mess.

They worked in Bosnia and some parts of that place was very bad. I think you could sit these people down and get them to agree to this. It isn't like you are making three seperate countries just give them autonomy.

[Byl Laprovik]

It worked in Bosnia because despite ethnic differences, there weren't any major economic disparities between the regions of Yugoslavia. This is not the case at all in Iraq, and that's why it would fail.

[Park Kraken]

We could just put a ban on all automobiles and gas, but I don't think that'll help any at all.

I just worked up a strange perspective on the war and a point of view. Please bear with me for a moment.

Ok, as long as the U.S. Troops are in Iraq, the Sunnis and Shiities have a common enemy to attack with their suicide troops. If the U.S. withdraws, the Sunnis and Shiites will turn against each other, with Al-Qaeda caught in the middle. Obviously Al-Qaede doesn't want this, so they order more attacks against the U.S., which, with Bush in office, means that Iraq isn't secure and the troops will stay even longer, thus what should be a anti-Al-Qaeda effort is actually supporting the terroists.

Thoughts on this different outlook?

[Jedi Master Carr]

It worked in Bosnia because despite ethnic differences, there weren't any major economic disparities between the regions of Yugoslavia. This is not the case at all in Iraq, and that's why it would fail.

I am not 100% sure about that. I thought the muslim side was a lot poorer than the other two. Still, it doesn't matter, a civil war will lead to a division in Iraq, why not just go ahead and do it now and work out some kind of peace deal.

[Jaime Tomahawk]

We went on and on about the war before it started. Unfortunately, those of us who opposed it turned out to be right. People can use whatever term they want now; "cut and run", "phased reduction", whatever. The point is, it's time to wake up and realize it's not going to be better, PERIOD.

We're not going to leave Iraq until Bush is out of office. This is his legacy and he's not going to be the one to pull the plug. Frankly, I'm stunned that he dumped Rummy and started bringing in some of his father's advisors. Advisors, who almost to a man, OPPOSED the invasion of Iraq. I was actually impressed by his firing of Rummy. Of course, if a Dem did something we'd be listening to cries of "flip-flop"! all day and night on FOX. So, until we get a Democrat or a moderate Republican who hasn't already sold his soul to the war effort, we're stuck there and looking at 4,000-10,000 deaths and tens of thousands of wounded. That's just on our side. The Sunnis and Shites will keep battling American troops and each other. It's not going to stop and there's nothing our presence there can do to stop it.

Get out and let the civil war begin.

I suspect that the best option if I was a Sunni in Iraq would be to get out now what I could. The Shi'ite's have the guns, the Kurds and Shi'ites have the oil. The Shi'ite's and Kurd's wont mind working together I supect. Sunnis are going to be on the losing end of the civil war, they dont have anything.

Frankly tho, you are quite right, we should get out and let them have at it, they are already doing just that and we cant stop them. The whole sorry mess is at the feet of Blair/Bush/Howard, so why should anyone else die defending their mess?

One thing I do think they should do is the troops they pull out should go to Afghanistan, where the terrorists really are and clean that place out properly.

[Batdude]

Afghanistan doesn't really need troops so much as it needs money. The key to winning the Afghanis is to give them options that aren't the Poppy and aren't the Taliban. Right now they don't have a third option. What's needed is a Marshall Plan style injection of economic prowess into the region. Industry, jobs, educations, etc. We're winning on the ground over there even now. Troops are a secondary thing. You make quality of life easier, even problems currently faced go away. I'd honestly rather have the opium trade legalized but that view is way too unpopular, oh well.

But you're right about the Sunni arabs in Iraq. They've got nobody to turn to except a handful of Syrians and al-Qaeda in Iraq, which despite the bogeyman treatment in the media, isn't really a factor.

[Park Kraken]

Afghanistan doesn't really need troops so much as it needs money. The key to winning the Afghanis is to give them options that aren't the Poppy and aren't the Taliban.

Well the Taliban is coming back out of Pakistan to try and reclaim their lost territory by force. We need to get out troops back out there and try to get them once and for all. Really we need to work out something with Pakistan concerning this matter.

[Batdude]

Economic warfare would hit harder against the Taliban. Fundamentalists can't thrive where there's prosperity. It's like prison baptisms on a larger scale.

The Taliban has made gains recently, but the situation on the ground for them is still bleak. Even with the little presence in the country, it's still enough to hem up threats for the most part. You provide opportunities, you get the Pashtun chieftains on your side, and you remove safe harbors for the Taliban.

[Yog]

Afghanistan doesn't really need troops so much as it needs money. The key to winning the Afghanis is to give them options that aren't the Poppy and aren't the Taliban. Right now they don't have a third option. What's needed is a Marshall Plan style injection of economic prowess into the region. Industry, jobs, educations, etc.

While a marshall plan would be very good, there is also a desperate lack of troops in southern afghanistan. NATO is currently struggling to keep the area under control. The place is a full blown warzone right now. A general compared the intensity of the fighting to the Korean war. Its the kind of combat where soldiers and military hardware actually make a difference.

[Jaime Tomahawk]

Afghanistan doesn't really need troops so much as it needs money. The key to winning the Afghanis is to give them options that aren't the Poppy and aren't the Taliban. Right now they don't have a third option. What's needed is a Marshall Plan style injection of economic prowess into the region. Industry, jobs, educations, etc. We're winning on the ground over there even now. Troops are a secondary thing. You make quality of life easier, even problems currently faced go away. I'd honestly rather have the opium trade legalized but that view is way too unpopular, oh well.

The British commanders on the ground, NATO etc would disagree. They have been howling for more resources. Afghanistan is just simply even less safe than Iraq, it's not an insurgency, it's a 'hot' war. The southern areas of Afghanistan where the poppy fields are need to be secured before any thought of economic rebuilding takes place.

There has also been billions put into Afghanistan so far and while more is needed, it's a waste until the place has real security, which it simply does not have. The difference tho in this case is that the majority of the world accepts and knows Afghanistan really IS a place where terrorists are groomed and Al-Quada are there. It is important to win in this area and for once,NATO are prepared to fight. But it wont last if there aint more troops. The USA has those troops and they are also battle hardened - they would make short work of the Taliban if the forces in Iraq went where they could actually do some good.

[Leten Snat]

Canada has most of our military "peace-keeping" in Afghanistan. We are holding ground as far as I've heard. We have lost only 30 troops in Afghanistan so far since 9/11, but we are doing mainly defencive missions of villages and refugee camps. At least that's what i've been hearing from the local newspaper.

[Morgan Evanar]

Afghanistan needs both troops and money and that's where we should be instead of mucking Iraq up.

[Firebird1]

Unfortunately we have to deal with that as well at the moment. Neither country really has any form of trusted local resources to provide basic security or even basic services in some cases.