A discussion

[Tiberius Anar]

Following a rather one sided 'discussion' here:

http://www.swforums.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=41056

I wish to have a proper debate about the polical activities of military personnel. I would rather this than being told that this is the way it is and, essentially, to shut up.

It has been suggested (actually it has been dictated) that military personnel within the Empire are not to be permitted to engage in any political activity. The punishment would be court martial and dismissal.

I wish to make it clear that I oppose this proposal and feel that it should not be implemented on the following grounds.

1. The Empire is a single party state and, as such, would follow the historical pattern of all single party states in indoctrinating its armed forces so as to ensure loyalty to the regime. To do otherwise would be to (a) act contrary to its nature and (b) risk the dissention of a vital component of the state.

2. It has been established IC here and in a variety of sources elsewhere, that military personnel undergo some degree of political indoctrination. To make such a change would have dire consequences for the armed forces, resulting in the loss of many of ideologically committed personnel.

3. It would not overcome the indoctrination received in their civillian lives prior to joining the armed forces and would, therefore, create considerable problems for all personnel in recociling the education of their formative years with the practice of their adult lives.

4. It would create a split within the Empire that would exacerbate existing problems of disunity.

I would also point out that I feel that such an innovation is unnecessary. It has never been established IC that party membership or political activity are obligatory in the armed forces, nor that it is official practice to allow such considerations to influence decisions on matters such as promotion and discipline. Individual commanders might be influenced by such factors but it is not, to my knowledge, the practice. Nor, as far as I am concerned, is it to become the practice.

There was, it is true, an unfortunate tendancy on the part of the Emperor to interfer with the armed forces practice of their art. However, this has only been seen in one incident- the Death Star II. I believe that this was the exception rather than the rule. It is deeply unlikely that the Emperor would have seen fit to interfere with day to day military operations or tell his commanders what to do in any great detail. He probably could not be bothered, being more concerned with the hunt for Sith knowledge, immortality and Luke Skywalker.

So, to summarise, this proposal is a poor one because it is unrealistic, impratical and dangerous. It is also unnecessary. For those reasons I would ask that it be dropped. Those are my views. What are those of the group?

[Droo]

If there's going to be this kind of petty bickering and wrestling for power OOC then I don't think I fancy having anything to do with Imperials with my character. This sort of nonsense is five years late with the ridiculous mixing of IC and OOC in discussions. Get a grip, guys, and be wary of what you assume you can and can't tell other roleplayers to do with their characters, because it just won't wash and you won't be taken seriously.

[Lamar Starworth]

I dont know what to really say.

If it has a lasting impact on the IC finepoints of the Empire, it will be problematic. The situation seems to point toward Khendon eventually gaining complete control over the Empire at one point or another, and with a past in the placement as an Executor, one of the most violate and militant orienated positions of the Empire it would seem quite irregular if he did not lead with an iron grip of the Imperial Army/Navy in his hand.

Beyond that, I could care less about the seperation of military and state. Despite the rather nice array of facts that you threw out there, this is still RPing. We should enjoy it the best we can, without bickering.

[Tiberius Anar]

This is not bickering for power OOC, this is trying to settle a point that will have ramifications for how people play Imperial characters. As it will have such wide reaching effects, it ought to be settled by a proper discussion of the pros and cons among the group. That is what is called a debate.

I welcome the points made by my friends above and will drop the matter. I know that I can be a little too 'deep' in my approach to roleplaying but I think that, on balance, it adds depth to my writing. Now, for some fun. Off I go...

[Karl Valten]

Indoctrination in politcs is a key point for the Inquisitoriate proper. We're supposed to be the psycho uber-fanatics of the Empire so intimate knowledge of politics and workings of the state is pretty much required.

As for for military..uhm.....isn't military and the state already tied together. I'm mean the Moffs are sector governors and they have the final say over army and navy activities within their sector, even if they don't personally lead the group.

I'm leaning toward Anar's side with this one. For our sadistic government to function, military and politics would have to be closely linked.

But I don't think this have an ultimate influence on our individual styles of roleplaying our Imp characters. It is fun, to an extent to come up with internal machination of the faction. To much of it and we'll lose a lot of the freedom roleplaying should offer, even within an authoritarian state.

[Telan Desaria]

We all run things our own way. Unfortunately Droo is correct. It is rather irrlevenat in the grand scheme of things. We operate however is best to operate in the Empire for the cause of conquering the galaxy. We fight, we die, we rp. The end.

I was wrong to even mention it. For that you all have my apologies. We may have treatises to the effect either way perhaps - perhaps that is a discussion the military and politicians need to have IC. But OOC we need not worry about it.

The Common Sense rules are in effect.

[Khendon Sevon]

Where'd my post go!? *Steams*

I basically said:

WHO CARES! Roleplay the way you want. Common sense is king and characters are allowed to view the Empire differently. There's no set guide and it's really not worth getting into some debate over.

Danke.

[Lamar Starworth]

Basically.

:)

[Telan Desaria]

yay - im right for a change


'
*sigh of relief*

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Common sense rules, yes, and you can RP whatever you like, but Anar is right, you need to at least agree on the fundamentals of the Empire otherwise you'll just turn it into a big mish-mosh of contradicting ideas which will lead to bigger misunderstandings and fights in the future, which would be a blurring of IC and OOC.

Having a rational OOC dicussion about it is not out of the question.

[Miranda Tarkin]

I'm just going with the flow ^^

[Bette Davis]

Don't worry, they wouldn't dare demote you. ;)

One other thing I forgot to say in my earlier post: characters are allowed to view the Empire differently, but if you want to have a smooth RP you should at least agree OOC about how it should be run.

[Khendon Sevon]

Bah to that, it's getting too specific and arguing over elements that are silly. It's a waste of breath.

We might as well count every ship if we're going to detail every belief, ideology, and philosophy followed by the Empire.

Follow canon! Or get in front of the cannon.

[Bette Davis]

Well, I don't see it as silly. Seems like a fundamental element of the Empire, really.

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

Everyone has different interests in what goes on here at Fans, and that's the beauty of this place - that everyone can pretty much explore their interests in a rather creative way. I really see no problem with this, as no one is ordering anyone else to say or do something.

The way I read it, Anar was just asking to have a discussion with another person IC about the nature of how things are run in the Empire. It's a roleplay; nothing more, nothing less. It's an outlet that lets us put forth our ideas and creative motivations into writing and something more tangible than if it were to simply stay in our heads.

What we write is decided upon by our interests, and Anar is quite the little political spider. There's no harm in letting him or anyone else do what RPs they wish to do.

[Tiberius Anar]

Actually I wanted an OOC discussion to deal with an OOC pronouncement with IC implications (wow that was convoluted!), but that's actually a really good idea. It might be fun to do a rp that shows the tensions experienced by the military when it comes to politics.

[Telan Desaria]

i'm in

[Tiberius Anar]

Splendid. I think we should do this with characters other than our own. Mid-level people whose opinions will not have impact on the Empire, but who are representative of the sides in the dispute.

A naval captains on staff postings somewhere? One a life long administrator and party member, the other an officer with combat experience and who has not taken up membership?

[Telan Desaria]

Excellent idea - Officers of the Imperial General Staff have combat experience but also have the ability to think long-term, making them decidedly intelligent and deliberate.

Say when and where, dear sir

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

Hoorj for misunderstandings!







Man I'm good at this game :D

[Telan Desaria]

hoorj????

[Tiberius Anar]

I see that and raise you a:

Hubawhaja?

[Telan Desaria]

Indeedamatoodleee

[Tiberius Anar]

The thread is going to have to wait until I get back from my holiday. I am away for two weeks starting Monday. Will be back on 3rd September.

[Telan Desaria]

Very well.

[Bette Davis]

Don't forget to come back! *clings to Anar's ankle*

[Tiberius Anar]

Aw. How sweet. I shall return have no fear.

[Teleran Balades]

Sweet? You were just shackled. I fear to think about what you do for fun.

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

ha! Ole ball and chain there :p

[Y'roth Helghast]

When the planning goes underway, I'd like to throw in a... mid level character with his own opinions as well, mainly a perspective coming from the Inquisitoriate.

[Telan Desaria]

Of course. The Inquisitoriate has staff officers.

[Tiberius Anar]

Excellent. But this is not going to be the General Staff. This is going to be the staff of an admiral governor- off away from where the discussion can do damange.

[Telan Desaria]

Ahem. General Staff officers are on the staffs of all Admirals and Generals and Moffs etc. They represent the men trained in military administration, planning, logisitcs, organization - true military intellectuals. Most officers of flag rank were general staff officers at one time.

[Tiberius Anar]

You mis-understand. This is not going to be [I]the[/I[ General Staff. They may be members of it but they are not sitting on Coruscant debating this- they are out in the styx.

[Telan Desaria]

Oh yes - of course.