Tour de France

[JMK]

After thinking no one could spin a story as feel-good as Lance Armstrong, along comes Floyd Landis and wins the Tour after being more than 8 minutes behind at one point. Not only that, but he's going to have hip replacement surgery. All the makings for another classic sport story.

Apparently not.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14059185/

No details yet, and of course, no comments from Landis as of yet (this story JUST broke), but I'm anxiously awaiting the spin/denial from his mouth.

Just another black eye in the sport of cycling.

[Ryan Pode]

Maybe he's just really manly. That's all.

[Jedieb]

Damn, just when you thought we had something else to punish the French with. Say it isn't so Landis!

[JMK]

I'm sure they're jumping for joy in France right now. They finally got 'the ugly American'!

I wonder if Landis just blows this off as pissed off French officials trying to stick it to America again.

[Jedieb]

In a way, this makes Armstrong's run all that more impressive. You know they went after Lance way more than Landis but they still could never pin anything on him.

[JMK]

Despite all the testing Armstrong's passed, I still have my suspicions about him. And I'm sure it's something that if he did juice up, he will take that secret to the grave. He would be labelled the all time greatest fraud if he was ever found to have cheated. All the people who were inspired by him, his charitable causes, all will be slighted and diminished if he's ever caught. Every year that passes that likelihood shrinks so he could be in the clear. I hope he's been truthful and that he's never used performance enhancers because he truly is one of the greatest sports stories of all time.

[CMJ]

If this is true I'm saddened that Landis cheated all of us. I'm holding out hope that maybe the B sample will be negative, but as it isthe guy looks like a fraud.:\

[JMK]

I'm not a big fan of the A/B sample system. It's just double the blood that can be tampered with, and who cares what the B sample says at this point? If it comes back negative what does that mean? To me it means nothing. One dirty sample and one clean sample. Well if one is dirty it means he was doing something he shouldn't have been doing. I don't know enough about the topic but I can't see how a negative B sample would completely exonerate him, but that's what will happen if it does come back negative.

[Jedieb]

I've actually heard some encouraging news about the failed test. Landis didn't have a HIGH testosterone level, his ratio of testosterone to another type of testosterone was out of whack. His testosterone level was actually pretty low. There's a chance the results coule be explained by the cortizone shots he was taking for his hip. Hell, even a few beers may have thrown his testosterone level out of whack. I'm crossing my figures that the test on the B-sample ends up clearing him.

[Yog]

Originally posted by JMK
Despite all the testing Armstrong's passed, I still have my suspicions about him. And I'm sure it's something that if he did juice up, he will take that secret to the grave. He would be labelled the all time greatest fraud if he was ever found to have cheated. All the people who were inspired by him, his charitable causes, all will be slighted and diminished if he's ever caught. Every year that passes that likelihood shrinks so he could be in the clear. I hope he's been truthful and that he's never used performance enhancers because he truly is one of the greatest sports stories of all time.

Agreed. I know you're innocent until proven otherwise, but if there is anyone I have reservations about in the world of sports, its Lance Armstrong. The whole thing about Betsy and Frankie Andreu, and Lance Armstrong's physician was highly suspicious.

Also, it is to my understanding B-samples are preserved for many years. Remember this story?
http://www.smithersmpls.com/2005/08/armstrong-lie.html

As for Landis.. if this is confirmed, there is not much else than just recognizing professional cycling is one of the most doping plagued sports there is. It takes the fun out of watching. For those who missed it, there was a huge scandal with some of the biggest favorites, Jan Ullrich, Ivan Basso and others before the tour even started.

[Jedi Master Carr]

There have been rumors that many of the major cyclists in the world like Ullrich were/are dopping (it is why they didn't go). Who knows at this point, but it is a huge black eye on the sport right now.

[Sanis Prent]

More like Tour de Farce right guys :mneh

[Oriadin]

I love to watch the tour de france. Its one hell of test of endurance and the cyclists that take part are incredibly fit.

Saying that, these stories of drugs every time cycling is mentioned is ruining the sport. I dont understand why they do it, I really dont. They MUST know they are going to be tested. Especially if you had a day like Landis did and then goes on to win the tour.

When your talking of these athletes taking drugs, what is it they actually do? Are they taking suppliments they shouldnt? Injections they shouldnt? How much to the cyclists know about what they are taking compared with the team doctors? Is it like the alcohol limit in the UK, your allowed so much before your classed as being over the limit, and they take things to make sure they are at that limit?

How much difference do these drugs make?

It has to make you wonder how many riders really are clean. I mean, non of the top 4 or 5 finishers last year took part this year either through retirement or through drug taking. Its ridiculous and no one is going to want to sponsor the sport.

[JMK]

Well, as predicted, Landis claims he's innocent.

"Asked repeatedly what might have tripped his positive test, Landis refused to lay blame on anything in particular. "As to what actually caused it on that particular day, I can only speculate," he said. "

Maybe Miguel Tejada gave him a B-12 shot that was really a whole bunch of testosterone.

Just once, I'd like to see an athlete own up to something. I'm so sick and tired of denials and athletes playing dumb.

"I thought it was an arthritic balm and a flaxseed oil"

"I don't know what caused the positive test"

"I have not taken steroids EVER. I don't know if I can make it any clearer than that"

"I couldn't tell what the label said"

"I didn't know it was banned"

Good God! How stupid do these people think the rest of us are?

And why is it that they wait so long to test the B sample? It just smacks of more corruption to me. More time for money to talk, cover-ups to happen and PR machines to prepare their spin.

[Oriadin]

Positive outlook!

Have to say that I have to agree with you though. There does seem to be an incredibly long time between testing the A sample to B. How long does it actually take if you were to just sit there and do it? I assume the times taken in getting the results back from the tests.

[JMK]

That's what I'm hoping. I hope that the minute they find out the A sample is positive that they go and test the B sample...and it just takes several days to get the results.

[Darth McBain]

Originally posted by JMK
Well, as predicted, Landis claims he's innocent.

"Asked repeatedly what might have tripped his positive test, Landis refused to lay blame on anything in particular. "As to what actually caused it on that particular day, I can only speculate," he said. "

Maybe Miguel Tejada gave him a B-12 shot that was really a whole bunch of testosterone.

Just once, I'd like to see an athlete own up to something. I'm so sick and tired of denials and athletes playing dumb.

"I thought it was an arthritic balm and a flaxseed oil"

"I don't know what caused the positive test"

"I have not taken steroids EVER. I don't know if I can make it any clearer than that"

"I couldn't tell what the label said"

"I didn't know it was banned"

Good God! How stupid do these people think the rest of us are?

And why is it that they wait so long to test the B sample? It just smacks of more corruption to me. More time for money to talk, cover-ups to happen and PR machines to prepare their spin.

Amen brother... I think I'd have more respect for them if they came forward, admitted it, and accepted whatever punishment was laid out, be it suspension, stripping of medals/records, etc... But they have to pretend that the public has an IQ of 6 and will believe anything they say. All these lies get tiresome.

[JMK]

I forgot to add:

"Someone must have spiked my water bottle"

I think if one of these athletes came out and said "I did it because I wanted to be the best. I did it because my career (i.e. getting paid) is very important to me. I realize that it is unethical, and cheating and I'm sorry to my team and to the fans", then I think they will find that the public can be quite forgiving. The one caveat is that the apology has to be sincere, and not one of the patented 'half apologies' that we're also so used to. You know what I'm talking about.
"I'm sorry if anyone was offended by my comments. They were taken out of context" which roughly translated means "I still believe in what I said, and it's too bad I ticked you off".

People said that if Pete Rose were to come out and just admit he gambled and apologized for it, he'd be forgiven by the people, and admitted back in to baseball. Instead, his apologies were so incredibly lame, and so unbelievably riddled with insincerity, that no one believed him. So he wasn't forgiven, nor admitted back in to baseball...but he claims he did what people told him to do: fess up and be forgiven. Someone should have told him to mean it.

Anyway, all this to say that the athlete has to make it sound more like "I cheated on purpose. I knew it was wrong. I didn't care. I HAD to win...and I'm sorry", instead of what will probably sound more like "I'm sorry I got caught"

More and more I find myself wondering why I even bother following pro sports.

[CMJ]

To answer the question JMK, apparently the B sample(urine) is a more relaiable indicator of your system than the A sample(blood) which is why they move to the B after the A shows up positive.

I got that off of some Olympic type website.

[JMK]

Maybe it's me, but shouldn't they just go straight to the most reliable source first? It's sort of a 'shoot first, ask questions later' thing. If they just go to the reliable source and get it over with then all of this could have been avoided, or made concrete. It doesn't make much sense to me, because whatever this B sample reveals is going to be taken as 'the truth', especially if it proves negative. So why not just use the B in the first place?

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Maybe someone wants draaaaamaaaaaa.

[Figrin D'an]

Originally posted by JMK
Despite all the testing Armstrong's passed, I still have my suspicions about him. And I'm sure it's something that if he did juice up, he will take that secret to the grave. He would be labelled the all time greatest fraud if he was ever found to have cheated. All the people who were inspired by him, his charitable causes, all will be slighted and diminished if he's ever caught. Every year that passes that likelihood shrinks so he could be in the clear. I hope he's been truthful and that he's never used performance enhancers because he truly is one of the greatest sports stories of all time.



An important aspect of Armstrong's success, and the suspicions of doping by some against him, is to consider his testicular cancer and treatment he received in the mid-90's.


Some will claim there there is simply no way that he could gone on to win a single Tour, much less seven in a row, without the aid of things like EPO following his cancer. However, I think it's important to look at how the cancer changed him physically. If you watch tape of Armstrong when he was in his early-20s and competing in triathlon events, he was considerably bigger (more muscular upper body, large calves, etc) than he was during his run of Tour de France victories. He wasn't built for endurance, he was built for power. He was actually a far better swimmer in those days than a runner or cyclist because of that upper body strength. When he decided to focus on cycling, his body type didn't change that much despite his changing his training accordingly. He was a power rider... a sprinter. He was really good in shorter time trials. But he struggled at longer courses and stages of races. He was a decent climber, but he never could sustain early leads he would get.

Now, enter his cancer diagnosis and treatment. Because his cancer had spread to his lower torso, it had to be treated aggresively. Take a look at some pictures of him while he was being treated. His body was destroyed. He was withered and frail. He lost almost all of the muscle mass from his athletic endeavors. This is the "blessing in disguise" that was his cancer. Cancer forced Armstrong to start from scratch. He would have to completely rebuild his body to be able to ride again professionally, and rather than go back to his previous body physique, which is not at all conducive for a Tour winning rider, he was able to, with his doctors and trainers, develop him into an almost perfect endurance cyclist. Armstrong was literaly engineered into the ideal Tour de France cyclist.

Maybe he doped, maybe he didn't. However, I tend to give Armstrong a far greater benefit of the doubt than other athletes on this matter. One also has to look at another straightforward "fact" that has yet to be significantly challenged... over the span of his Tour victories, Armstrong was the most drug tested athlete in the world, and in that entire time, he never failed a drug test. So, either he and his doctors/trainers know how to conceal it better than anyone else in the world, he used something that is completely undetectable, or he's clean.



As for Landis... it's a wait-and-see issue as far as I'm concerned. False positives on A tests are more common than the media would like people to believe, it's all bout the sensationalism of a doping scandal right now rather than the facts at hand. Once the B test results come in, it then become a matter of Landis being able to show (or not) that his testosterone levels are the result of either interation with medication from his thyroid or hip conditions, or that he has an abnormal ratios of testosterone types than most people (which is possible, it's a small portion of the population though).

[Jedieb]

Maybe he doped, maybe he didn't. However, I tend to give Armstrong a far greater benefit of the doubt than other athletes on this matter. One also has to look at another straightforward "fact" that has yet to be significantly challenged... over the span of his Tour victories, Armstrong was the most drug tested athlete in the world, and in that entire time, he never failed a drug test. So, either he and his doctors/trainers know how to conceal it better than anyone else in the world, he used something that is completely undetectable, or he's clean.
I agree with Fig. Armstrong gets my benefit of the doubt. Until someone comes up with some solid proof I'll believe he did it the right way.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I really don't know if he did or not, he might be honest there. Although, I still don't like him but that is for other reasons.

[Jedieb]

It looks like the testosterone in Landis's sample was SYNTHETIC. Man, this guy is probably going down in flames. But hey, it hasn't been a total bust of a week, Castro may be on his last legs!!!!! :crack

[JMK]

As soon as Landis spilled out his "I didn't do it, I don't know how it got there" excuse, I gave up all hope of him being clean. I hope this guy gets killed by the fans and media now. He said he had naturally high testosterone, which people were willing to believe, or at least take a wait-and-see approach with. Now, unless Landis is a robot and and produce synthetic testosterone, he's finished. And I'm glad. The 2 favorites were ejected before the race even began, and the winner has been busted. This is just ridiculous. It goes far beyond ever being a joke.

[JMK]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hruby/060801&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab5pos2

:lol

This is utterly hilarious! The excuses athletes give are completely out of this universe!

Just as an example of what you can expect in this article:

(1) When police found EPO and other performance enhancers in the home of Frank Vandenbroucke, the Belgian cyclist claimed the drugs were intended for:
A. His anemic dog.
B. His arthritic cat.
C. His diabetic goldfish.
D. His SARS-infected pet rock.

In case you're wondering, the answer is A. In fact, the answer to all of them is A, except for 19, where the answer is D.

[Ryan Pode]

Wow. I wish I was as creative as some of those people.

[JMK]

It looks like Landis is going to trot out every excust in the book before finally admitting what he did:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/more/08/03/bc.cyc.landis.doping.ap/index.html?cnn=yes


"Maybe a combination of dehydration, maximum effort," said Jose Maria Buxeda, after testing began Thursday on the cyclist's backup doping sample.

But that defense was flatly rejected by one of the world's top anti-doping officials.

"In 25 years of experience of testing testosterone ... such a huge increase in the level of testosterone cannot be accepted to come from any natural factors," said Prof. Christiane Ayotte, director of Montreal's anti-doping laboratory.

Nice try Floyd. Again.

Here's what really grinds my gears though:


However, Buxeda contends a second positive sample would not be enough to find Landis guilty.

If you can't prove innocence or guilt, then why the hell bother testing? If you're going to wait for Landis to admit that he did it, and that's the only 'proof' that will determine his guilt or innocence, don't hold your breath. He's not going to fess up at this point.

[Dutchy]

The anti-doping hunting is doing more damage to the sport than the actual doping does.

[JMK]

Well if the cheaters wouldn't cheat, there'd be no doping stories. The governing bodies of cycling have let this spiral out of control just like baseball has.

[Jaime Tomahawk]

Originally posted by Dutchy
The anti-doping hunting is doing more damage to the sport than the actual doping does.

Oh, really?

Well considering that a Tour de France winner has failed the B Test, I say you very wrong, the drug cheater has really damaged the sport in ways the hunters could never do.

[Figrin D'an]

Landis "B" test came up positive, with the same ratio as the "A" test. Team Phonak fired him, and the Tour de France director said that they no long consider Landis the Tour champion (official proceedings to strip him of the title have to be done by the UCI, and a UCI lawyer said that they won't take action in that respect until after the various US organizations involved hand down their punishments).

[JMK]

I'm just excited to hear the continuing excuses & denials. This ought to be good.

[CMJ]

I just saw some kind of scientist on TV that said his testosterone level isn't elevated so much as his epi-testosterone(sp?) level is decreased. Well how the hell does that happen?

Obviously Landis is going to appeal this. Even if he wins thru the "courts"(not likely) he'll never get his name back. Personally I think he should just shut up and take it.

Way to go Floyd!

:rolleyes

[Jaime Tomahawk]

Originally posted by CMJ
I just saw some kind of scientist on TV that said his testosterone level isn't elevated so much as his epi-testosterone(sp?) level is decreased. Well how the hell does that happen?

Obviously Landis is going to appeal this. Even if he wins thru the "courts"(not likely) he'll never get his name back. Personally I think he should just shut up and take it.

Way to go Floyd!

:rolleyes


Hav you ever seen an athelete who's been caught ever just shut up and accept the punishment? They all seem to try to come up with some ridiculous excuse.

I also beieve they found in the A sample traces of synthetic testosterone. Yep, I bet he'll balme that on the chicken he ate the night before

[JMK]

There's no way to explain something in your system that is synthetic in nature. Anything other than an admittance of guilt is pure b.s. Landis' defense is now going to revert from "My body naturally produces it" to "I don't know how it got there". These athletes are meticulously cared for, both by themselves and by their trainers. And they are also extremely picky about their gear. I'll wager that Landis knows each and every tiny modification done to his bike, and he should, but don't for one nanosecond try to tell me that you don't pay equal or greater attention to what's going in to your body.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

I can't believe people are still listening to him. He's plainly a liar.

[JMK]

Now it's the media's fault. The media is misrepresenting the positive tests.

Ummm.....how Floyd? Keep on trying to clear your name, at the very least it's entertaining as hell!

[JMK]

http://sports.sympatico.msn.cbc.ca/Home/ContentPosting.aspx?feedname=CBC-SPORTS-V2&newsitemid=jones-fails-drug-test&showbyline=True

I didn't want to start another thread about athletes on roids so I just dropped it here.

How many chances does Marion Jones get? Everyone and their dog knows that she's another doper. Ban her once and for all. She's as dirty and shameless as Bonds.

[Jedi Master Carr]

She is probably gone for good.