The Sabbat, post-Shadow Play

[Gabriel Rodermark]

So... where are we headed next? To see the Cardinal? :)

[Sansa]

Er...

I have no idea. Anyone have great ideas? I gave the Cardinal a name, btw, but I haven't registered an account. Yet.

[Gabriel Rodermark]

I've been working on the bio of a old world Tzimisce who is buried in torpor. Perhaps the Cardinal plans to raise him and use him as a weapon against London?

[Sansa]

Could be, could be.

Maybe he wants to take London so he can permanently resettle Katarina there, and get her out of Moscow.

Niccoli Cento, the Cardinal, probably is trying to distinguish himself to the relatively new Regent, and getting a foothold into England would be huge.

It's in my mind that should Katarina's sire come out of torpor, he'd probably diablerize his sire, the Cardinal, and usurp his position. Which the Cardinal knows, and wants to get rid of his childe but can't because only Katarina knows where he is. Which is why he can't just outright kill Katarina, because he wants the information.

Giacomo Rossi / Gregory Rasputin is just a bit mad, of course, and was never given permission to take a childe in the first place, but... here we are anyway.

[Gabriel Rodermark]

Oooh. So are you thinking of having Rossi come out of torpor...with Katarina's help?

[Sansa]

I'm planning on having him come out of torpor without anyone's help. Katarina blames him for the deaths of her family, and would be happy if she never saw him again either. :)

[Gabriel Rodermark]

I zee. Is he going to make a bid for control of the Russian Sabbat?

[Sansa]

Yes. Oh heck, why not control of everything? :) But Russia first. Then he'd probably turn his attention to the home country of Italy.

Don't the Sabbat / Lesombra ensure loyalty through oaths? How does that work, do you know?

[Gabriel Rodermark]

The Sabbat use blood bonds called Vinculum (http://whitewolf.wikia.com/wiki/Vinculum_%28VTM%29) to ensure loyalty within their packs. A vampire of any clan/sect can create a blood bond, though it's usually just a one-on-one thing, as opposed to the communal bond that the Sabbat creates. All it takes is "three sips of a vampire's vitae on different nights" for someone to become "almost hopelessly emotionally enslaved" to the vampire they had drunk from.

[Dimitri Vojslav]

It's not just blood bonds that the Sabbat employ. Violence, fire and serpents are also used in rituals, such as snake-handling, fire dances, torture and ceremonial killing. The point is to create solidarity within the pack, since the Sabbat packmates lead very hostile existences and are prone to fractiousness and mistrust. - It's kinda like a 'group-hug with spikes and guns' affair - becoming 'one of the lads' (or girls) and getting to know your allies in a Sabbat-kinda way.

Sure, blood bonds ensure loyalty to the leaders, but the other methods are more of a bonding experience to prevent hell from breaking loose within the packs, given the individual members' volatile natures

[Mandy with an I]

Yeah, but I read that the Tzimisce can chose to release their children from the blood bonds, if say, there's not enough territory for them all to stay together, or the childe is adamant about leaving.

And sorry I haven't been a part of this discussion, I've been busy and am going away for the weekend :)

[Gabriel Rodermark]

I think it would be stretching it to say that they become 'one of the lads'. From what I've read, Sabbat packs have tenuous bonds at best and will kill one another quite readily, whether over something trivial or to make an example to others. I think that more often than not they stick together as they do because of a) fear or b) the promise of greater power.

[Dimitri Vojslav]

I wasn't implying that members of a pack are neccessarily friends - obviously that was a bad way of putting it. But the partaking of the Vaulderie certainly helps the packmates get along better.

On a side note, I've been thinking of a way to introduce my character (Dimitri (http://www.swforums.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40364) ) into the picture. Having entered torpor sometime in the late 19th Century, he is currently slumbering deep in the crypts beneath The Church of St. Demetrius on the Blood in Uglich, Russia - just north of Moscow on the Volga River.

Dimitri is a koldun and a very good one at that. I was thinking perhaps the Sabbat could become aware of his presence - maybe he was thought to have suffered final death at some point - and decide to revive him. I thought he could initially become a paladin/templar for the Sabbat due to his sorcery and his lineage with one of the Sabbat's founding clans (tzimisce) - maybe they believe he will be controllable and make a good attack dog.

Any thoughts?

[Jason Dreggs]

Just out of my own curosity what kind of cardinal is this? what I mean is what church does he belong to?

[Vega Van-Derveld]

Cardinal is a rank within the Sabbat, who take a lot of their titles from the Catholic church.

[Jason Dreggs]

ah thank you as you can see I don't read much sabbat stuff. I was just making sure if I bring my priest hunter character in later itwouldn't mess up anything you guys had going.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

I was thinking about making the Cardinal *actually* a Cardinal, as sometimes they do have a rank within the Church as well. But he looks like he's 22, and so that might be a bit difficult to pull off. :) I'll think of something.

[Jason Dreggs]

I may be wrong about this for I was only told I never actually read it anywhere but suposadly the camerilla controls the vatican so anything could happen. If anyone happens to find substantial proff of this please send it my way. :)

[Gabriel Rodermark]

I couldn't find anything about the Camarilla and the Vatican, but here's some more info I just looked up on the Sabbat use of Catholic titles. From the Storytellers Handbook To The Sabbat:

"The Sabbat uses many titles derived fr om those of Catholic church officials. There are good reasons why the Sabbat chose those titles. First of all, the name of the sect itself shows its contempt for the Inquisition and the witch hunts. Also, some Sabbat vampires actually managed to create alternate identities as church officials to steer the Inquisition away from the Sabbat and point them toward the Camarilla. The titles were kept by many after the brunt of the Inquisition died. Other Sabbat vampiresbegan to use the titles, and they eventually came to denote actual positions of leadership."

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Yeah, that's pretty much what I read.

:)