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Mandy with an I
Apr 11th, 2006, 12:15:17 AM
I did research my character before-hand, and it's frustrating to have people questioning what I've come up with. I want to rp him, but I don't want to have to explain my character and his background or argue over what's allowed as a Metis character. If it's going to be a hassle, then I will change his breed (I don't want to, but I will if I absolutely have to). My Metis is based on information from the Wiki, Revised Players Guide and Quick Start Guide - anyone who feels that they have something to add (and it is from an actual WW source preferably. I've included the Genetics site because I found it interesting.), be my guest.

We've already established that horns and other deformities are visible in every form. Blade messaged me and asked me about why my Metis hadn't been killed - he's a Glasswalker, and they keep their Metis cubs (according to the wiki). He also brought up that, since Metis are born in Crinos form, his mother would die in child-birth. I was under the assumption (after reading the Wiki information below) that while they're born in Crinos form, they're still babies - it doesn't make sense to me that a woman (garou or not) would have a GIANT werewolf instead of a baby-sized werewolf. I haven't read anything to suggest otherwise -- if anyone has a more definitive answer, post it please.




Metis
From the White Wolf Wiki, the most complete White Wolf reference

These are the deformed and sterile offspring of two Garou. This deformity may be a physical deformity such as a withered limb, a mental deformity such as insanity or retardation, or a spiritual deformity such as always reflecting their Crinos form in mirrors.

Metis are generally looked down upon by most Garou as they are a result of two Garou breaking one of the tenants of the Litany: Garou Shall Not Mate With Garou. Some tribes kill their metis outright or treat them so cruelly they might wish for death. Other tribes require the parents to raise the cub as punishment for their sins, but do not officially punish the child itself. Unofficially, metis still have to work much harder than Homid or Lupus to gain respect.
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Tribe views on Metis

The Fianna are known to be particularly unforgiving of metis, considering any physical deformity a sign of spiritual weakness and inferiority. They treat even homids and lupus with minor physical flaws as lesser creatures. The Red Talons frequently kill metis because they are unable to keep up with the pack, but bear them little personal malice if they are strong enough to survive.

The Children of Gaia, Bone Gnawers, and Glass Walkers tend to have the highest numbers of metis. The Children of Gaia and Bone Gnawers will accept metis cubs from other tribes and raise them as their own. So their reputation for producing an unusually high number of metis is not entirely deserved, since many are adopted. Accepting unwanted metis from other tribes has also helped bolster their ranks, so they are two of the largest tribes.

The Glass Walkers have occasionally been accused of advocating the production of metis so as to ensure a constant number of Garou, but this is likely a rumor. They have a higher than normal number because they keep virtually all of their metis, even ones that are so sickly they could never fight. These metis are sometimes augmented with technofetishes to make their life easier, but most merely find a place in the tribe dealing with humans or computers, actitivites that do not require sound bodies.
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Advantages and disadvantages

Despite their deformities, metis do enjoy some advantages. Their natural form is crinos, so they are naturally better at combat than their brethern. They also have more Gnosis than Homid cubs, giving them a spiritual advantage. Lupus have more Gnosis, but are often baffled by the human world. The idea of walking upright and having use of hands can confuse and frighten Lupus cubs. Metis cubs can walk on two feet or four feet, so are used to perceiving the world from multiple perspectives.

Metis are also raised in Garou society, so frequently have a better grasp of rituals, the spirit world, and other aspect of Garou society than Homid and Lupus cubs don't learn about until after First Change.

Not all metis are raised in Garou society, however. Because they are trapped in Crinos until First Change, they must be kept out of sight of humans. In an urban or suburban sept, this means they spend the majority of their childhood locked away from people and not even allowed outside. At small septs, they may well be the only metis, so will have no one to interact or play with, stunting their emotional growth. They may have extreme difficulty coping with groups of people once they undergo first change, and lack basic social skills for dealing with both humans AND wolves.

Metis at larger septs are generally a bit 'luckier' since there may well be other metis cubs of similar age in residence that they can interact with. Larger septs are also more likely to have someone experienced with raising metis cubs, who may arrange for a visit to another sept with a metis pup to get a lone metis some much needed social interaction.

The other Fera treat their metis slightly better than the Garou, overall. Due to their lower numbers they need every cub they can get. Some Fera can not produce metis at all.

Mandy with an I
Apr 11th, 2006, 12:41:41 AM
<a href=http://www.angelfire.com/goth/somath/Garou.html>From this site</a>
Metis:
Nickname: Mule (among others)
Your parents disobeyed the first tenet of the Litany, and you pay the price. Your body bears the stamp of Gaia's disapproval. Ostracized by most Garou, you have nevertheless been raised among them. Though familiar with the ins and outs of werewolf society, you know more about the dark side of the Garou than anybody ought to know.
Many Gaoru see the metis as a symbol of the Mothers' sick state. When the world was pure, they say, metis were few and far between, and usually died young (one way or another). Now your breed grows in number while the "pure" Garou dwindle, and the elders have to deal with you, whether they like it or not. Your suffering has shaped you; many metis are proud in spirit and tough in body. Some are noble, compassionate, understanding, while others inflict their pent-up Rage on anyone they can.
The assets of the metis are self-evident; your natural form is the powerful Crinos, and your knowledge of Garou society is profound. Many elders feel responsible for you and will often teach you whatever you need to know. Trained from birth, most metis master both abstract thought and raw instinct. Metis characters may arrange their abilities any way they like, and they need not worry about initial confusion suffered by newly changed homids and lupus. (Some metis, however, are raised by Kinfolk, given to them by Garou too ashamed to acknowledge their offspring. These unfortunates quickly learn to hide their natural form, but learn little of Garou society.)
The disadvantages of this breed are also obvious; in addition to your pariah status, your body is twisted and deformed in some way. Some possible disabilities. Additionally, all metis are sterile. These deformities are more than just physical hindrances; the Garou see them as outward reflections of Gaia's anger. The fact that many Black Spiral Dancers are metis (and suffer no stigma because of it) just reinforces this idea. The path of the metis is a long, hard road.


<a href=http://www.greyhawkes.com/larp/genetics.htm>Genetics Primer</a>
What about Metis Garou ?

At first glance, it seems very easy. And second glance, you have to delve deeper.

There are many RL genes, for instance the single gene for both sickle cell anemia and malaria resistance, where two instructions telling your body to have malaria resistance will also tell it to have the disease sickle cell anemia. Unfortunately for us, any genes that come from two Garou parents could also (although with less probability) come from kinfolk parents. Therefore the explanation must come from the process of procreation rather than the genetics.

We concluded that the relevant instructions must be in the parent cells themselves, and in whether they are expressing the Garou Phenotype ("Garouness"). The cause must either be an overdose of something Garou, or a deficit of something wolf/human, in the Garou cells.

For instance, the Garou embryo could require a "trigger" that Garou sperm and egg cells (male and female sex cells, or "gametes", or sperm and egg cells, fuse to make an embryo) lack, possibly in order to "choose" the correct "genome" (set of instructions) for the breed (Lupis or wolf) and develop normally. When Garou mate with each other, the trigger is absent, and the embryo does not develop normally.

An additional result of the overdose of a Garou factor in both parent sex cells may be that the embryo has its first shift happen at conception. The Metis has genes of both wolf and man activated all the time in its childhood until it learns to control them, resulting in the Metis child being born Crinos. (Note: Several independent sources have said that Metis can shift from birth).

One consequence of the Garou deformities that appears obvious to a biologist is that many Metis embryos will spontaneously abort because they their 'deformities' make it impossible for them to survive even in the womb. And that some other Metis will be born severely disabled, or non-viable as subjects of study.

Fiona Devlin
Apr 11th, 2006, 09:24:42 AM
Relax Dae-chan, it's all good. :)

Miranda Tarkin
Apr 11th, 2006, 09:28:59 AM
^^^^

she beat me to it. There's nothing wrong with your character ^^

Mandy with an I
Apr 11th, 2006, 09:36:13 AM
Okay, thank-you. :)

Jason Dreggs
Apr 11th, 2006, 10:32:21 AM
Like I said him surviving is no big deal and I'm good with that. I just basically want everyone to know in order to be a metis that survivies you have to be apart of a clan that accepts them cause not all clans most generally disapprove because of gia and there for they are considered abominations and terminated.


As for the mother dieing yeah crinos form = big wolf man form and basically rips it's way out of the mother. Even in as a baby this form is consider huge I mean maybe not the normal 8 feet but no one that I know of can survive delvering the birth of a baby even half that witch I figure would be the equivelent of a baby metis 4 feet tall.

That was my biggest thing and all i was doing is offering help I never wanted the character scrapped in my own defence I just wanted to make it right so other people didn't complain because they would have hence why i did it in private and not out in public.

Mandy with an I
Apr 11th, 2006, 10:41:12 AM
Okay. I know you were helping, but I want to have a clear idea of all the little rules for Metis' before I do any more rping as mine. I don't want to have a few rps under my belt with him and have someone say "Oh, this is wrong, and this, and this." :| No-one has "complained" about it yet, which is why I started this thread - if something is majorly wrong with how I wrote my bio, I want to know so I can fix it.

The baby thing still doesn't make sense - yes, it's a HUGE werewolf when the person is older, but if a woman is pregnant with a Metis, does that mean she has a GIANT stomach? How would she even carry such a huge baby to term if a Metis is so huge when it's in the womb?

Nothing that I personally have read has said anything about them ripping their way out of the mothers' body. If you have proof, post it.

Jason Dreggs
Apr 11th, 2006, 10:48:59 AM
well ripping away was the term my friend used to tell me what happens so he could explain that part to me about the mother dieing and why cause I had many of the confusions you did early on.

As for my proof I would love to show you all and share all I have for I have the whole collection of WoD on pdf. The problem as of yetI have no means to share it with you all I have tried various methods with out success.

Fiona Devlin
Apr 11th, 2006, 10:57:54 AM
well you could still grab passages out of the book for those of us who don't have it handy. ;)

Jason Dreggs
Apr 11th, 2006, 11:01:00 AM
I will when I'm in a little less pain starting with this one. :)

anything else anyone wants for now please by all means request it.

Mandy with an I
Apr 11th, 2006, 11:01:47 AM
I have the Revised players guide, and I have an actual hard-copy (ie book) coming in the mail from Amazon. I didn't have any confusion about how I wanted to play my character because I read as much information I could find about Metis before I even registered the account.

This is the only information I have found so far about the actual "birth" of a Metis.


Garou Shall Not mate With Garou

The Law: Werewolves should mate only with humans or wolves. The offspring of two Garou, the Métis, are born sterile and defective, physically deformed or even insane. In the worst cases, the mother dies giving birth to her Crinos form cub. These births are obviously cursed, and introducing even the hint of corruption into the Garou race is a crime against Gaia. Werewolves may fall in love - and they often do in the ballads sung by the Galliards - but even the clutches of passion is no excuse
for this transgression

The Reality: The permissive ways of homid society seem to be having an effect on the Garou. More Métis are being born now than ever before. While some tribes claim to treat Métis with respect, in truth they still face a life of hardship and scorn.

Pragmatic Garou point out that, with the number of cubs born to Kinfolk on the decline, the Métis might just be needed at the final battle of the Apocalypse.

Worse cases, meaning it may or may not happen. :| Like I said, if you have definitive proof, copy it from the PDF and show me.

Jason Dreggs
Apr 11th, 2006, 11:05:29 AM
Don't scrap this character because i do like metis and I will get your proof and help you with anything else you may want to know. Of course you will have to wait a few days cause I'm in a bit of pain today and probably will be for a few days. lol

Mandy with an I
Apr 11th, 2006, 11:12:30 AM
Fine. Thank-you for the offer, but I decline. I won't scrap my character, but I'm not changing his bio either.

Katarina Gordislava
Apr 11th, 2006, 11:28:11 AM
Madny, your metis character seems just fine according to the information on them.

Go forth and rp!

Mandy with an I
Apr 11th, 2006, 11:40:33 AM
<del>If anyone has a PDF of "Guardians of the Caerns", please im/pm me.</del> Thank-you, Jenny. :)

And I am rping ^_^; I'm waiting on posts!

Jason Dreggs
Apr 16th, 2006, 04:08:07 PM
Book: Werewolf the Apocalypse- core rule book (revised)
Page number: 32
Section: Under the section heading "forms"

"If you ask a werewolf how he sees himself, he will usually
think of his breed form first. A werewolf is born in his breed
form, and he keeps it until his First Change. A metis is born in
his Crinos form, in most cases killing the mother who gave
birth to him. Cynical werewolves insist that such tragedies
further prove that their laws are right: The mother's act of
incest results in her death."

(this just so everyone knows where I was coming from with my information not to drive a any point into the subject any more. To prove I wasn't making crap up with my statement is all use it don't it doesn't matter to me.)

Alos how a friend explained it to me on how it works never writien any of the books just how it was explained.

A metis in the fetis is in the same form as it's parents where in when the breeding went down. (mean humid or wolf form) But when it does to be be birth is when it changes into crinos form for some reason ( he gave me one but I don't remember it). That is how explained a mother being able to carry a metis child.

Miranda Tarkin
Apr 16th, 2006, 05:49:51 PM
But as it states in the book, in most cases ^^ doesnt mean all. Therefore some metis' can still have their mothers alive.

Mandy with an I
Apr 16th, 2006, 09:59:56 PM
I have a copy of "Guardians of the Caerns", which has an entire chapter on Metis and how they are born, raised, etc. It says the mother is usually in Crinos form when giving birth, and that the baby is born in crinos form -albeit a teeny werewolf baby form.

The chapter starts on page 76 for anyone who has it. :)

Jason Dreggs
Apr 17th, 2006, 06:15:03 AM
I'm just stateing where I got my information from is all. they change so many things in the dang books it's hard to keep track of them all. So hey sorry about all trouble.