Iran

[Jedi Master Carr]

Iran is a huge mess right now. The current president is a madman and a real extremist here is a look on the situation
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2006-01-17-iran-QA_x.htm?csp=N009
Not sure what will happen, we need to put sancations on them. I think France will come around, I didn't think they were reluctant for that from what I have read on other reports is they are for sancations if it comes to it. The Problem is Russia and China. Russia has bacially been selling Iran the uranium and other materials to start this. And China gets a lot of their oil from Iran both could veto any UN resolution, which would kill sanctions. A military solution would be tough, sure us and Nato could launch strikes and invade if we need to but it would be a long drawn out war and the civilian casualities would be bad.
Hopefully, this will get worked in the Security council so we could put sanctions on them which is a start.

[Khendon Sevon]

I think that if we're going to say Iran can't develop nuclear weapons we have to stipulate that all of its neighbors are not allowed to posses them, either. Who are we to say, “John gets nukes but Sally doesn’t.”


But the conventional fear is the Islamic republic is using that as a cover for a nuclear weapons program the same way Pakistan, India and North Korea did.

Notice these nations have developed nuclear weapons under similar conditions and we have not had a nuclear war yet? Hmm…

Additionally, how do we know any of this intelligence is correct, considering the massive “blunders” that we were told were “legitimate” and given as reasons for the Iraq war? Could this be the government trying to manipulate the media in an effort to establish credibility for actions against Iran? Maybe they’re trying to build fear to sway the public’s opinion?

All I know: several of my teachers, my father, and the Turkish guys that work for my father all said that Iran would the next target after Iraq. They said this at the start of the Iraq war.

*Shrug*

[Jedieb]

I have no doubt that Iran's nuclear program is a smoke screen for developing nuclear weapons. I also don't doubt that Iran is more of a threat now than Iraq and Saddam EVER were. But we're in no position now to do much about it. There's no way the administration could sell a war to the American public right now, not after what's happened in Iraq. Iran could test detonate a nuke tomorrow and there's probably not a damn thing we could do about it.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Originally posted by Jedieb
I have no doubt that Iran's nuclear program is a smoke screen for developing nuclear weapons. I also don't doubt that Iran is more of a threat now than Iraq and Saddam EVER were. But we're in no position now to do much about it. There's no way the administration could sell a war to the American public right now, not after what's happened in Iraq. Iran could test detonate a nuke tomorrow and there's probably not a damn thing we could do about it.
I think you are right, which is why I am pissed off, if we had left Iraq alone we could do something about Iraq. The only way we could invade Iraq if we could get China and Russia to do it for us, but they won't because the Russians are in bed with them and China needs their oil. Right now the best we can do is sancations and I am not sure if that will do any good.

[Jaime Tomahawk]

Originally posted by Jedieb
I have no doubt that Iran's nuclear program is a smoke screen for developing nuclear weapons. I also don't doubt that Iran is more of a threat now than Iraq and Saddam EVER were. But we're in no position now to do much about it. There's no way the administration could sell a war to the American public right now, not after what's happened in Iraq. Iran could test detonate a nuke tomorrow and there's probably not a damn thing we could do about it.

Ever notice North Korea and Iran went hell for leather whatever the cost for nukes only after Bush's Axis of Evil comments?

[Colonel Karrnage]

Says a lot about the specter of actual nuclear proliferation, doesn't it?

Wonder why we didn't invade Cuba in '62? ;)

[Yog]

Originally posted by Jaime Tomahawk
Ever notice North Korea and Iran went hell for leather whatever the cost for nukes only after Bush's Axis of Evil comments?

Oh, yeah. I remember that well. One of the very first thing he did after being elected president back in 2001, was doing that axis of evil speech. It seriously angered not only N. Korea and Iran but riled up the entire muslim world. Then came 9/11, while maybe not a direct concequence of this, it certainly did not help. He also announced to build the National Missile Defense (formerly known as Reagans 'Star Wars' program), for I dont know how many hundred billion dollars. By this move, he abandoned the ABM treaty and damaged relations with Russia, China and you guessed it, North Korea. They viewed it as some sort of arrogant imperialistic threat. Heck, it even raised concern among his NATO partners. Then he cut off the financial aid to North Korea, and the dipmomatic talks were cut off as well. N. Korea announced they were restarting their nuclear program. It just spiralled downwards from there..

Then there was the war in Afghanistan and Iraq, which many muslims viewed as either warmongering madness or a crusade from the west against Islam. Bush' comment that this was a "crusade" and repetious mentions that he was acting on behalf of God and whatnot, only reinforced that view. Of course, his support to Israel did not help either.

So you see.. it all adds up, and in the end of all this we have a nutjob in Iran who is all about to press the nuclear button, and there is not a damn thing we can do about it..

:x

[Zem Vymes]

Originally posted by Master Yoghurt
Oh, yeah. I remember that well. One of the very first thing he did after being elected president back in 2001, was doing that axis of evil speech.

You have your chronology mixed up. 9/11 came before Axis of Evil by about a year.

[Khendon Sevon]

Man, I still vividly remember that day. I remember the phone calls pouring into school of family members being okay and the people who were scared because they didn’t hear anything from someone.

That was terror.

Now, from my college I can see when they light up those powerful search lights and shine them at the stars in memory.

Why did it happen? Because of bad politics. Politicians are supposed to explain our way of life in a non-aggressive way to the rest of the world, they are supposed to ensure our safety. Instead, they have personal and corporate agendas; they couldn’t care what the world thinks about us. It’s all wrong.

I remember Bush calling the “War on Terror” a crusade. My opinion of him as a horrible president has not changed yet. He’s got a couple years to turn around. Here’s “praying” for it.

Nuclear war? Even if Iran gets nuclear technology, they’d have to develop an extremely small bomb capable of being smuggled in the United States for me to feel threatened. Politicians will make it seem like us Americans are at threat. The only Americans at threat are those who have been in harms way since these terrorist organizations started targeting them—civilians and soldiers overseas.

Embassies wouldn’t be the target—collateral damage would cause everyone in that nation to instantly despise anyone that could be blamed.

Our soldiers in Iraq, however, might be the target. Yet, I can’t help but think the military has a way of tracking any deployment capable of harming our troopers.

So, what am I saying? It’s politics. If we do something about Iran, it’s not because we should feel threatened by them. It’s because enough politicians have an agenda.

[Jedi Master Carr]

This guy would have to be really crazy to use a Nuke. More likely they use as leverage. We have a nuke so you can't invade our country that kind of logic. It is the same reason Pakistan and India have them. Of course it will probably lead to a arms race in the region with Egypt and Saudia Arabia building them too.

[Khendon Sevon]

We can’t disarm the bomb that is the Middle East in segmented form. We’re playing favorites, and that’s what’s getting us in trouble. Yeah, we’ve kinda’ reduced the threat of Iraq (even though they didn’t have the weapons we were looking for or the materials); but, the rest of the bomb is still waiting to explode and all we’ve done is get the clock ticking.

[Jedieb]

Originally posted by Colonel Karrnage
Says a lot about the specter of actual nuclear proliferation, doesn't it?

Wonder why we didn't invade Cuba in '62? ;)

That was a different time and a different situation. The situation in Cuba wasn't about Fidel getting a bomb, it was about the Russians installing nukes so they could have another launch platform against the U.S. And we were behind the Bay of Pigs a few years before that and that was a complete disaster. IMO, Fidel did a lot more to warrant an invasion than Iraq ever did, but there was just no way it was ever going to happen.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I am going to bump this up since this letter came out yesterday.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060510/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iran_us

I am sure that Iran did that for show, but we could have handled it better. Honestly, I think the UN Resolution will get killed. I think either Russia or China or both will veto it this week. From there I am not sure what will happen. This will kill any talk of sanctions. We can't invade, or else we are just setting up a bigger mess. Besides we couldn't pull off that kind of invasion by ourselves. We could bomb but we are looking at war then because Iran will retaliate they have said it. We might just have to accept that Iran will have nukes. What is really ironic is the Iraq War caused this by taking out Saddam we have now made Iran the most powerful country in the Middle East. The main power broker in Iraq is loyal to Iran. Syria is now more friendly with Iran. The Palastines are now on their side with Hamas in control. All it will take now is revolutions in Egypt and Saudi Arabia and then Iran will be friends with every major middle eastern nation.

[Jaime Tomahawk]

Originally posted by Jedi Master Carr
I am going to bump this up since this letter came out yesterday.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060510/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iran_us

I am sure that Iran did that for show, but we could have handled it better. Honestly, I think the UN Resolution will get killed. I think either Russia or China or both will veto it this week. From there I am not sure what will happen. This will kill any talk of sanctions. We can't invade, or else we are just setting up a bigger mess. Besides we couldn't pull off that kind of invasion by ourselves. We could bomb but we are looking at war then because Iran will retaliate they have said it. We might just have to accept that Iran will have nukes. What is really ironic is the Iraq War caused this by taking out Saddam we have now made Iran the most powerful country in the Middle East. The main power broker in Iraq is loyal to Iran. Syria is now more friendly with Iran. The Palastines are now on their side with Hamas in control. All it will take now is revolutions in Egypt and Saudi Arabia and then Iran will be friends with every major middle eastern nation.

Notice that the worst case senario that was predicted before the dimwits of the Bush Admin went gun ho into Iraq has come true? And with Cheney insutling Russia and the political snub that Bush gave to China's President, the Bush admin is simply been hung on it's own petard with a mess that no one else gives a damn about sorting out. And while the USA IS stuck with the Iraq/Iran mess, China and Russia are flexing their political muscle in other areas, like resources. China is sewing up resource deals left and right for itself, Russia has overcome it's troubles and gained international standing once again. And the Bush admin simply has no political capital with anyone around the world due to it's bone headed stupidity.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Originally posted by Jaime Tomahawk
Notice that the worst case senario that was predicted before the dimwits of the Bush Admin went gun ho into Iraq has come true? And with Cheney insutling Russia and the political snub that Bush gave to China's President, the Bush admin is simply been hung on it's own petard with a mess that no one else gives a damn about sorting out. And while the USA IS stuck with the Iraq/Iran mess, China and Russia are flexing their political muscle in other areas, like resources. China is sewing up resource deals left and right for itself, Russia has overcome it's troubles and gained international standing once again. And the Bush admin simply has no political capital with anyone around the world due to it's bone headed stupidity.


Well I don't care for Russia, Putin is a dictator now (shouldn't be surprised from the former KGB man). What is going on there is they are turning back the clock to their previous dictatorship regimes (from the Czars to the communists). And I think they are in bed with Iran, personally, and believe me Putin is laughing his butt off. Being a former Communists he would love to stick to our country and he does have the opportunity. Of course this doesn't explain away Iran, the problem is the mess with Iraq, if we hadn't went into Iraq we wouldn't have created a powerful Iran. Iran is also the true evil power in the region but by removing Saddam we have created a real hornet's nest in the region.

[Khendon Sevon]

Originally posted by Jedi Master Carr
Iran is also the true evil power in the region but by removing Saddam we have created a real hornet's nest in the region.

Iran is evil?

[Jedi Master Carr]

Originally posted by Khendon Sevon
Iran is evil?

Well I should have not said that. I mean Iran's leader is an evil man or at least a crazy man from what I can figure out about him.

[Khendon Sevon]

Originally posted by Jedi Master Carr
Well I should have not said that. I mean Iran's leader is an evil man or at least a crazy man from what I can figure out about him.

Well said. The real problem isn't Iran itself.

In reality. What do we know about Iran? We know what we've been told by the media, of course. Eh, where does the media get its information? What opinions might the people have that are pushing said information?

We have a problem bigger than Iran. That problem is getting unbiased, truth-filled reports instead of minute-long talks filled with complete opinion.

Carr's post, no offense (I realize it was a spur of the moment thing), shows exactly what's happening. George W. called Iran "evil" when he clumped them into the axis of evil.

Other than that, what do we really know?

Anyone?

It's all speculation. We've gone to war over speculation before. I'm hoping things will change--even though I know they won't.

/end rant

[Pierce Tondry]

Khendon: You, sir, have just said something worthy of applause. That was insightful, and I agree.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Well I based my crazy evil thing over, him saying Israel should be wipped off the map, and the holocaust never happened. I guess that is why I don't care for the man. Now that being said I don't think we should invade them for those beliefs. If we invade every country with a wako leader we would be fighting for centuries, not to mention we be going into WW 3 (Russia has a slightly wako or evil leader, IMO). I think Iran should be isolated but the mess the U.S caused with Iraq might make it tough to get that.

[Jaime Tomahawk]

Originally posted by Khendon Sevon
Well said. The real problem isn't Iran itself.

In reality. What do we know about Iran? We know what we've been told by the media, of course. Eh, where does the media get its information? What opinions might the people have that are pushing said information?

We have a problem bigger than Iran. That problem is getting unbiased, truth-filled reports instead of minute-long talks filled with complete opinion.

Carr's post, no offense (I realize it was a spur of the moment thing), shows exactly what's happening. George W. called Iran "evil" when he clumped them into the axis of evil.

Other than that, what do we really know?

Anyone?

It's all speculation. We've gone to war over speculation before. I'm hoping things will change--even though I know they won't.

/end rant


First thing you can do is get access BBC and Al Jazeera, ignore every word from Fox and be highly dubious of anything else. NPR is half decent as far as I have heard. The Aust ABC is also decent.

American media is just..... crap. There is no other word for it. Unfortuantly I have first hand experience of how awful it truly is - while people continue to believe Fox and give O'Reilly and Coulter the time of day, there is big, big problems. The simple fatc that when media becomes ratings and power-centric, facts and proper journalistic values go out the window.

[Khendon Sevon]

And that's why we all need to watch Colbert and Stewart :)

I have access to the Greek news networks via sat. It's crazy all of the stuff they show that American media doesn't cover. For instance, demonstrations in NYC against the administration?! Israeli tanks with Palestinian children tied up to the sides (that was a few years ago, but I'm still shocked)?!

[Jedi Master Carr]

Originally posted by Jaime Tomahawk
First thing you can do is get access BBC and Al Jazeera, ignore every word from Fox and be highly dubious of anything else. NPR is half decent as far as I have heard. The Aust ABC is also decent.

American media is just..... crap. There is no other word for it. Unfortuantly I have first hand experience of how awful it truly is - while people continue to believe Fox and give O'Reilly and Coulter the time of day, there is big, big problems. The simple fatc that when media becomes ratings and power-centric, facts and proper journalistic values go out the window.


I don't watch Fox. O'Reilly is a moron and Coulter is a Nazi. I generally watch CNN or MSNBC for my news.

[Byl Laprovik]

They're neither morons nor nazi's. They're populists to the core, and the dumb tripe they spew sells and makes a lot of money.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Coultor believes some of the stuff she writes. I fell out of my chair when I read she thought the U.S should convert the Middle East to christians and kill the rest.

[Khendon Sevon]

Originally posted by Jedi Master Carr
Coultor believes some of the stuff she writes. I fell out of my chair when I read she thought the U.S should convert the Middle East to christians and kill the rest.

The real question: how many people in the US actually believe that we should convert the Middle East to christians and kill the rest?

Didn't bush mention something about this being a war from God or something along those lines? Or maybe he just called it a crusade? I'm sure that made the Middle East happy.

What happened the last time someone called for a crusade?

[Sanis Prent]

Originally posted by Jedi Master Carr
Coultor believes some of the stuff she writes. I fell out of my chair when I read she thought the U.S should convert the Middle East to christians and kill the rest.

You think you're going to get on camera and/or in print and suggest that you don't?

[Jedi Master Carr]

Originally posted by Sanis Prent
You think you're going to get on camera and/or in print and suggest that you don't?

What do you mean? I read it in one of her articles that she put out about 3-5 years ago. I am sure I didn't get the words right but she sure did insinuate that in what she wrote. I could search for what she exaculate she wrote if I have time.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Originally posted by Jedi Master Carr
What do you mean? I read it in one of her articles that she put out about 3-5 years ago. I am sure I didn't get the words right but she sure did insinuate that in what she wrote. I could search for what she exaculate she wrote if I have time.
I found it
http://www.anncoulter.org/columns/2001/091301.htm
here is the exact quote
"We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. We weren't punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That's war. And this is war."
So really I wasn't that far off. The woman is a fruit cake plain an simple.

[Jaime Tomahawk]

Ann Coulter is a troll. Not even a good one either.

[Sanis Prent]

Originally posted by Jedi Master Carr
I found it
http://www.anncoulter.org/columns/2001/091301.htm
here is the exact quote
"We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. We weren't punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That's war. And this is war."
So really I wasn't that far off. The woman is a fruit cake plain an simple.

Yeah, you're still not understanding me. Its really not that hard to roleplay, be it on live TV, in a book, or in a blog on the internet.

For instance, take a good look at George "Segregation now, Segregation tomorrow, Segregation forever" Wallace, who demonstrated through his political career a panache for populism, which is just the politicized version of what Coulter and O'Reilly practice.

Look at Hugo Chavez, who's a far more hilariously tacky version of this. I mean, his entire political platform could be written on a t-shirt in a Hot Topic.

Does it make it any more right? Certainly not. But it's also pretty simplistic to write any of the four off as the type of true believers you're decrying, especially when you look at the cash money payoffs for getting on that soapbox.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I don't agree with you Coulter, believes her trash. She has a very low following of like 5% of the american people, so I wouldn't consider her a populist. I think she is more of a fruit cake myself. O' Reilley might be a different matter.

[Sanis Prent]

Where'd you get your 5% number? Do you understand how much money she makes with her rants?

[Jedi Master Carr]

Originally posted by Sanis Prent
Where'd you get your 5% number? Do you understand how much money she makes with her rants?
Honestly I am guessing, maybe hoping that is all that believes her garbage. Besides even if 5% believed her that would make her plenty of money that is 12 million people and if all 12 million bought her books that is a lot of money. I am sure we could figure it out if we could see how many books she sold last. I know she has sold less books than Al Franken and Bill O' Reilley but beyond that I am not sure how many she have sold.