Big Brother is listening to you

[Jedi Master Carr]

To think Orwell was on to something in 1984 is just scary
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051218/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush

I think its wrong for our government to be doing this. They shouldn't be listening into our conversations without a warrant. Who knows where they could take it. I am not getting into politics here this is just me feeling that our civil liberties are really important. I am a person who feels that we should give up our freedoms for security. For example China is very secure but the people there have little freedom, I don't want to be living in a situation like that.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

I don't know if I'm the only one, but I knew that the Patriot act allowed government agencies to 'spy' on people without having to wait for a warrant to arrive.

For Congress to just now bring it into the media's attention and splash it all over the front page stinks of scare tactics and sensationalism.

[Khendon Sevon]

Sadly, the only way to get the majority of US citizens to do anything is to scare them with sensationalism and tactics aimed at creating fear in them. This fear gets them to react however the media guides them.


Hello 1984. A nation with shortages and in constant fear will not rise up or question its oppressive government. This allows an elite group to control the nation and all opulence.

However, 1984 was written to explore the dangers of Dictators and the abuse of… well, Socialism. America is not socialist and is not a Dictatorship.

Checks and balances, even when weakened by an overly powerful Executive branch, still work. The Senate recently stopped the renewal of aspects of the Patriot Act even though Bush was pushing for them to become permanent.

However, you know something is messed up with the government when we have to pass anti-torture laws. That’s a sign that something is serious defunct in the way we’re operating.

Interesting fact, essentially 98% of all American media is owned by about 7 companies. (http://www.cjr.org/tools/owners/). America is rated 17th (according to Reports without Boarders http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=4116) in freedom of the Press. (Odd, I’ve also heard the number 47 being thrown around by some people, but I can’t find a source online).

WAAAIT. Found it ;) This is their ’05 report: http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=15333

It’s amazing how America has fallen behind so rapidly. Check out the index for US controlled Iraq.

What to do, what to do? I don’t want to be a politician. Who does? We need some good people to step up to bat.

Meh.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Originally posted by Khendon Sevon
Sadly, the only way to get the majority of US citizens to do anything is to scare them with sensationalism and tactics aimed at creating fear in them. This fear gets them to react however the media guides them.


Hello 1984. A nation with shortages and in constant fear will not rise up or question its oppressive government. This allows an elite group to control the nation and all opulence.

However, 1984 was written to explore the dangers of Dictators and the abuse of… well, Socialism. America is not socialist and is not a Dictatorship.

Checks and balances, even when weakened by an overly powerful Executive branch, still work. The Senate recently stopped the renewal of aspects of the Patriot Act even though Bush was pushing for them to become permanent.

However, you know something is messed up with the government when we have to pass anti-torture laws. That’s a sign that something is serious defunct in the way we’re operating.

Interesting fact, essentially 98% of all American media is owned by about 7 companies. (http://www.cjr.org/tools/owners/). America is rated 17th (according to Reports without Boarders http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=4116) in freedom of the Press. (Odd, I’ve also heard the number 47 being thrown around by some people, but I can’t find a source online).

WAAAIT. Found it ;) This is their ’05 report: http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=15333

It’s amazing how America has fallen behind so rapidly. Check out the index for US controlled Iraq.

What to do, what to do? I don’t want to be a politician. Who does? We need some good people to step up to bat.

Meh.
I would say Orwell was looking at Dictatorships in general. And the Soviets weren't socialists but Communists which to me were more fascists in the first place. A socialist state is like Denmark and Norway and they aren't run by dictators. Also I hate the Patriot Act, especially the part where the goverment can just look at what I am reading at the library, that just reeks of what Orwell was getting at. I am sorry I don't believe in giving up civil liberties to remain safe, to do so would just send us down the wrong direction.

Also LD this wasn't the Senate. The New York Times posted the report. I thought it was wrong for the White House to blast the Times, it is there job to report the news. They didn't do anything seditious. I don't see how what they reported hurts our security. The only thing it did was basically kill the more controversal parts of the Patriot Act, the parts involving libraries, reading emails etc. The stuff I personally hate. Also some republicans are coming out against the President, Specter and McCain both said they thought it was outrageous what was being done.
Here is some of what I was getting at
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051219/ap_on_go_co/domestic_spying
Also there is no law saying he can spy on who ever the President or NSA choses, there has to be some court involvement this article clearly states that.

[Jedieb]

What Bush is going to try to do is hide behind his duty as Commander in Chief to "protect" the American people as justification for this. He'll rationalize that the order he signed wasn't illegal because it "needed" to be done. You want to be safe, don't you? That's my job, I've got to spy on you without a warrant. And if you protest hard enough then you must be weak and unpatriotic. How many times have we heard that crap from this administration? Whether it's torture or peeling back one civil liberty after another, this is what the neo-cons and Bush have been doing for 5 years now.

You know what they deserve? They deserve to lose the House in 06 and have an all too familiar Impeachment vote take place in the House. This time, the chargers won't be about lying about a knobjob. It'll be everything from lying and covering up the outing of a CIA agent as a part of some cheap political payback, to signing a secret order to spy on Americans without a warrant.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

How was it a secret order to spy on Americans if we knew about it already??

[Jedieb]

I'm not talking about the Patriot Act. The story the NY Times broke was that Bush signed a secret order allowing the NSA to listen in on phone calls without a warrant. That order was OUTSIDE the scope of the Patriot Act and in direct violation of the 14th Amendment. It also violated a law passed in the late 70's that was passed in response to LBJ's and Nixon's crap (and you can probably throw in a ton of the red dressed devil schenagins(sp?) as well.)

[Khendon Sevon]

Yeah, the NSA has been listening in on phone conversations illegally with the administration having knowledge of its actions. Plenty of articles on it from any news station, here's what CNN pulls up if you search for "NSA" http://search.cnn.com/pages/search.jsp?query=nsa

I believe it's the Judicial branch that authorizes wiretaps, not the Executive. Interesting, we've seen this kind of thing before (Jackson ignored a Supreme Court ruling in regards to Native American land claims).

Hmm, seems like an abuse of power to moi. Then again, I'm from New Jersey :)

[Morgan Evanar]

Originally posted by Lilaena De'Ville
How was it a secret order to spy on Americans if we knew about it already?? :rolleyes:

They just voted down the Patriot Act :D

[Jedieb]

Originally posted by Khendon Sevon

I believe it's the Judicial branch that authorizes wiretaps, not the Executive. Interesting, we've seen this kind of thing before (Jackson ignored a Supreme Court ruling in regards to Native American land claims).

Hmm, seems like an abuse of power to moi. Then again, I'm from New Jersey :)

But there's more recent examples of this then going back to Andrew Jackson. In the 60's and 70's the FBI (at the behest of both Johnson and Nixon, both parties did this) spied on Civil Rights groups and anti-war activists. Since apparently the 14th Amendment wasn't enough, Congress passed the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act in 78. It said the President could not "intentionally engage in electronic surveillance" without a court order or except as authorized by law. Just watch, it's that "authorized by law" phrase that Bush will use to justify his actions. 'The Constitution says I have to protect the American people. This is why I can ignore the FISA and any other law that gets in my way like these silly torture laws!"

[Jedieb]

Originally posted by Morgan Evanar
:rolleyes:

They just voted down the Patriot Act :D

It was voted down in the Senate the other day. Dems in the Senate finally showed some guts. And there were a few Republican Senators that voted against it as well. There are some Republicans that are starting to stand up to the Administration as well. Whether it's McCain on torture, Specter on the wiretapping, or Hagel on Iraq, the year has seen more than a few Republicans not follow the Administrations line.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I read some on it and one article mentioned that there is a way to get the wiretaps done without the terrorists knowing. Here is it is quoted from the article
"The scandalous abuse of Americans' civil liberties in that period led in the 1970s to a new set of laws aimed at curtailing domestic espionage by intelligence agencies. To balance national security needs with our constitutional liberties, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act created secret "FISA" courts in which the Federal Bureau of Investigation and other federal agencies can covertly obtain warrants to eavesdrop on suspected spies (now terrorists too) in the United States. These courts are generally efficient and deferential to the government. Yet the Bush administration still opted to cut them out of the process in some cases; warrants are still sought to intercept all communications that took place entirely within the United States." [quoted from LA Times article Bigger Brother.]

I think that sums up a lot about what they could have done. Also this isn't really about politics when Republicans are against what Bush done, namely Spectar and Mccain; they are both calling for senate hearings on this.
Of course this isn't the only dirty dealing going on, I read here
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20051214/ts_afp/usmilitaryrights_051214074709
The Pentagon is spying on anti-War groups. Man are we returning to the early 1970's and the Nixon administration. Next thing you know we will have a break in of democratic headquarters again.

[Cirrsseeto Quez]

Originally posted by Lilaena De'Ville
I don't know if I'm the only one, but I knew that the Patriot act allowed government agencies to 'spy' on people without having to wait for a warrant to arrive.

For Congress to just now bring it into the media's attention and splash it all over the front page stinks of scare tactics and sensationalism.

Are you somehow implying that the entire prospect of this kind of clandestine, illegal surveilance is either justifiable or worthy of encouragement?

What about people who blur the line? In fact, where does the line on this end? I'm keenly interested because to be honest some of those idiots on Capitol Hill just might draw it on the wrong side of me.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Originally posted by Cirrsseeto Raurrssatta
Are you somehow implying that the entire prospect of this kind of clandestine, illegal surveilance is either justifiable or worthy of encouragement?

What about people who blur the line? In fact, where does the line on this end? I'm keenly interested because to be honest some of those idiots on Capitol Hill just might draw it on the wrong side of me.

That is my problem with it as well, people who aren't terrorist could get caught into this. I just don't like it to me it is very wrong.

[Jedieb]

Originally posted by Lilaena De'Ville
I don't know if I'm the only one, but I knew that the Patriot act allowed government agencies to 'spy' on people without having to wait for a warrant to arrive.

I'm not going to pretend that I've read every word of the Patriot Act. But exactly where in there did the 14th Amendment get put on hiatus? As controversial as the act was, I don't think it specifically gave the President the authority to conduct surveillance on American citizens without a warrant. If someone can find the passage, please quote it. This is something that Bush and the administration have done on their own and in direct violation of the law. And if you heard his speech last night, he's not backing off.


So, consistent with U.S. law and the Constitution, I authorize the interception of international communications of people with known links to al Qaeda and related terrorist organizations.

This program is carefully reviewed approximately every 45 days to ensure it is being used properly. Leaders in the United States Congress have been briefed more than a dozen times on this program.

And it has been effective in disrupting the enemy while safeguarding our civil liberties. This program has targeted those with known links to al Qaeda.

I've reauthorized this program more than 30 times since September the 11th attacks, and I intend to do so for so long as the nation faces the continuing threat of an enemy that wants to kill our American citizens.

Another vital tool in the war on terror is the Patriot Act. After September the 11th, Congress acted quickly and responsibly by passing this law, which provides our law enforcement and intelligence community key tools to prevent attacks in our country.

I highlighted the word "another" to emphasize that the eavesdropping and spying we're talking about is NOT part of the Patriot Act. This is something the administration has done outside of the scope of that law. They're using their own interpretation of the constitution to do something that Congress specifically tried to stop after the Johnson and Nixon Administrations.

[Khendon Sevon]

Due to the Congress’s lack of objection to Bush’s abuse, I feel that our representatives are no longer putting our best interests first. It’s sad when our government reaches a point where the President can do virtually anything without those charged with safe guarding liberties speaking up and providing a defense.

Eh, if I stop posting. It's because the black van showed up ;)

[Charley]

Originally posted by Khendon Sevon
Eh, if I stop posting. It's because the black van showed up ;)

Thats never stopped me :)

[Jedi Master Carr]

Originally posted by Khendon Sevon
Due to the Congress’s lack of objection to Bush’s abuse, I feel that our representatives are no longer putting our best interests first. It’s sad when our government reaches a point where the President can do virtually anything without those charged with safe guarding liberties speaking up and providing a defense.

Eh, if I stop posting. It's because the black van showed up ;)
LOL Seriously it sounds like (at least this is what most democrats are saying and a few republicans like McCain) that they were never told the specifics of the program. I am curious to hear what was said in those briefings. Maybe this will come out in some of the hearings that I am sure will begin sometime next year.

[Jedieb]

I'm not sure how anyone can say they knew the Patriot Act let the government spy on people without warrants. That's not the way Bush and the Administration sold the Patriot Act.

George W. Bush in April of 2004

Secondly, there are such things as roving wiretaps. Now, by the way, any time you hear the United States government talking about wiretap, it requires — a wiretap requires a court order. Nothing has changed, by the way. When we’re talking about chasing down terrorists, we’re talking about getting a court order before we do so. It’s important for our fellow citizens to understand, when you think Patriot Act, constitutional guarantees are in place when it comes to doing what is necessary to protect our homeland, because we value the Constitution.

But let's not get silly and start talking about Impeachment boys and girls. I mean, it's not like he lied about something important like a knobjob.

[Khendon Sevon]

Very true, if he had lied about something like that, it'd be all over TV and everyone would be calling for his head on a silver platter.

Now, telling a lie about something relevant to constitutional rights and bypassing the checks and balances emplaced for citizens' protection...

that's nothing noteworthy.
Great guys, I should invite them down to the diner for dinner.

[Mu Satach]

Originally posted by Khendon Sevon
Interesting, we've seen this kind of thing before (Jackson ignored a Supreme Court ruling in regards to Native American land claims).


I never did like Jackson...

with his wee beeady eye's always watching me from my $20 bill...

[Jedi Master Carr]

LOL Mu he does have a sneaky eye :p
Oh about the spying thing this broke today
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051230/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/domestic_spying_probe_11;_ylt=Ah109waZqfeJPBiIHAwd cwrB4FkB;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl
Well I guess they are still going to keep on defending it and now are trying to find out who is leaking the reports so they can fire them. I am just waiting for the hearings I want to see what comes out of them.

[Jedieb]

Originally posted by Jedi Master Carr
LOL Mu he does have a sneaky eye :p
Oh about the spying thing this broke today
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051230/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/domestic_spying_probe_11;_ylt=Ah109waZqfeJPBiIHAwd cwrB4FkB;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl
Well I guess they are still going to keep on defending it and now are trying to find out who is leaking the reports so they can fire them. I am just waiting for the hearings I want to see what comes out of them.

Yeah, just like they fired everybody responsible for leaking Wilson's wife CIA identity. Funny how some leaks are more dangerous than others. Man, how I hate this administration.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Originally posted by Jedieb
Yeah, just like they fired everybody responsible for leaking Wilson's wife CIA identity. Funny how some leaks are more dangerous than others. Man, how I hate this administration.

Well the good news several republicans and a few democrats might be in a lot of trouble with this lobbyist scandal. I am really curious to see where this is going to go.

[Jedieb]

Right now there are a ton of Congressmen praying Abramoff isn't going to rat them out in his plea bargain (Delay foremost.) And while I know there are plenty of Dems with dirty hands, make no mistake, Abramoff is first and foremost a Republican lobbyist. That's where his money has been going and that's who he's been peddling influence to and for. This has the potential to get really ugly. Eat it you crooks, whatever your party affiliation is.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Ney from Ohio is the #1 republican talked about, as for the democrats involved they should be thrown out too. Hopefully, this will lead to a repeat of 94 when the Republicans sized power by using democrat scandals, this time it will be the reverse :)