I can't believe this!

[JMK]

http://blogs.starwars.com/sid/3/comments

Those people blogging over at the OS are at it again. The topic of this blog?

Wait for it....

Did Mace Windu actually die?

Huh?????

Does everyone have to get their head removed before they're considered dead in the SW universe?

Believe it or not, there are people that are arguing that he could have survived. One guy went as far to say that if Dooku didn't squeal like a child after getting his hand chopped off, if Anakin was able to grab Zam's speeder while falling and if Luke was able to withstand Palpy's lightning attack, then it's possible that Windu could have survived the whole incident.
Then someone else actually agreed that it was the most logical response! WTF??? Who are these people? Here's another great one:
Remember what Mas Ameda said to the Shock Troopers about Yoda, if you have not found the body, "..then he is not dead".

Unbelievable.

Sorry, had to rant.

[Saveeradeevaravaravee]

I totally agree. The man fell hundreds of stories through speeder traffic, and, if you remember the scenes of the Lower Levels, had a high probability of landing in an industrial zone - complete with fire, molten metals, and open electrical circuits. I'm all for Boba Fett blasting his way out of the sarlaac's belly, he had an arsenal the size of the Imperial Fleet to do it with. But Mace Windu surviving that fall is just too much of a stretch for me.

Then again, I'm probably a bit biased on this one. After reading Kevin W. Jeter's Bounty Hunter Wars trilogy, Boba Fett has the top of my list in terms of favorite characters. On the other hand, I was left thoroughly unimpressed by Samuel L. Jackson's performance as Mace Windu. I don't particularly want him to come back.

And, for the sake of argument, let's say he did, somehow, survive. What's the point of bringing him back? The man has no hand, no friends, no order to return to, and an entire galaxy destroying every Jedi who pops his head up! Sure, he could probably get prosthetics, but do you really think that such a well-known Jedi would be able to return to life as normal without being killed off anyway? It just seems like the amount of effort it would take to believably resurect him in a story outways his overall benifit to the SW Universe.

Then again, we could always give him Dasquian's lightsaber, and not worry about prosthetics...

From thread your lightsaber (http://www.sw-fans.net/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38420), Originally posted by Dasquian Belargic
Mine doesn't have a handle either. It shoots straight out of my eyes, in all the colours of the rainbow.

[JMK]

For me, the problem isn't the fact that people are making up reasons why he could have lived. It's the fact that they're thinking about that sort of thing AT ALL. They talked about Maul surviving, as well as Boba Fett...they all survived in the EU, but the EU DOES. NOT. COUNT.

[Saveeradeevaravaravee]

Darth Maul?!? He was cut in freaking half! His legs freakin' fell off!

I follow the EU, at least as far as the novels go, and hold them as part of the SW Universe personally, and I can see Boba Fett barely surviving the Sarlaac when he had a proton torpedo launcher on his back (Barely!), but I just cannot see Darth Maul or Mace Windu as having survived those particular situations.

[JMK]

Apparently Darth Maul survived and was brought back in comic books...complete with mechanical legs. I've never seen them myself, but I suppose they could exist.

[Saveeradeevaravaravee]

Well it's not a matter of legs. He was cut through at the waiste - his entire lower body fell off. That's just stupid, IMO.

[JMK]

Oh no doubt the entire thing is ridiculous. What of the organs that he lost or were damaged? It makes no sense whatsoever, but it did to someone apparently.

[Jedieb]

Maul was brought back in the Visionaries comics and in a SW Tales story. Both are infinities stories and are outside the EU continuity. And the EU stuff ISN'T canon to me and never will be. There's only one reason characters like Boba Fett and Maul keep getting resurrected; $$$. The SW Tales with Maul was probably the best seller they ever had. And bringing Fett back to life, no matter how nonsensical and improbable, got done for the same reason. Fett stories sell comics and books, that's why he's back. If they thought they could do the same with Mace, they'd do it too. They'd have him land on a speeder, gain control of his fall, or have a force sensitive flying monkey come to his rescue.

This is all just a fact of geek life. Whether it's comics or movies, popular characters are never dead as long as there's a MARKET for them and dollar signs available to fuel their resurrection.

Highlander II
Sean Connery wants a paycheck, so Ramirez gets brought back to life.

Alien IV
Ripley's dead, but Sigourney wants a paycheck so we'll clone her.

X-Men
Holy crap, is Jean Grey dead or not?

Spiderman
Kane snaps Doc Ock's neck, but he's back now, isn't he?
Norman Osborne is back and greener than ever, isn't he?

Star Wars
Let's throw the Emperor down a shaft and end the story, and then bring him back because Lucas really doesn't pay much attention to Dark Empire comics.

Superman, dead, but not really dead.

Gur Gardner, dead, but not really dead.

Doomsday, dead, not dead, then dead again, then not dead, then dead.... I'm not sure if those last 2 happened, but who cares.

And we could go on and on and on....

[Darth McBain]

I think it's ridiculous, but it doesn't surprise me that people are debating it. I used to read some of the forums on TF.N, but I got so sick of all the ridiculous conspiracy theories that went on over there. I think people try to find any way, no matter how ridiculous, to over-analyze every single frame of the movie and try to come up with plot holes, what-ifs, conspiracy theories, whatever. Such as the theories that Obi-Wan was really a sith lord in disguise (huh?), that Plo-Koon survived the attack on him that blew up and crashed his ship (if you saw the crash, I think we can agree he's dead), and one of my personal favorites, that Darth Vader was really a sort of "Frankenstein" monster consisting of the "spare parts" of other Sith Lords (i.e. Maul's legs, Dooku's hands, and Anakin's head)

Seriously, some people need to let it rest... There's a degree of geekdom that clearly crosses a line.

[Saveeradeevaravaravee]

Well, I think that everyone on Alderaan is still alive. Seriously! I mean, c'mon, just think about it. The Death Star didn't blow the planet up, it just moved it to another dimension, and that tremour in the Force and the asteroids were just coincidence. What do you guys think?

Wait. I said that wrong. Let's try again.

i think that evron on aldran is still live. really imeen cmon just tihnk about ti the deth star dindt blow the planet up it just mved it to anther demenshun and that trimur in teh force and the astaroyds were just happend to be tehre. what do u guis think.

There we go :D:D:D

[JMK]

Never spell like that again. I can never respect a tool that can't type properly.

[Saveeradeevaravaravee]

Sorry 'bout that. ^_^;I was undercover as the people who argue that Mace Windu is still alive, you see. It pained me very much to do that, but it had to be done for the sake of humor. (Not to offend, but... seriously... there's a point where people just stop trying.)

And I'm a tool? You're sounding a bit Sith-esque there, JMK. ;)

[Lilaena De'Ville]

:p

If Mace survived the fall, then he's dead by the time ANH comes around anyway. Luke is the last of the Jedi. (Well, Yoda said there was another but for some reason I always thought he was referring to Leia, not Mace Windu..)

[Sudoku]

I would argue about that kind of stuff, you know, if I actually enjoyed the prequels enough to really care about the under-developed characters like Mace Windu and Darth Maul :)

[JMK]

Originally posted by Saveeradeevaravaravee
Sorry 'bout that. ^_^;I was undercover as the people who argue that Mace Windu is still alive, you see. It pained me very much to do that, but it had to be done for the sake of humor. (Not to offend, but... seriously... there's a point where people just stop trying.)

And I'm a tool? You're sounding a bit Sith-esque there, JMK. ;)

:lol I got your impression of idiots who can't type to save their life. Well done, but never again!

[JMK]

And the "Mace Windu may have survived" saga continues:

http://blogs.starwars.com/KeibakAruu/3/comments

Too funny.


So here is a possibility of what could have happened if someone decides to bring Mace back either in the series or EU:

1)Mace was shocked from having his hand cut off.
2)Was hurt from the lightning.
3)Palpatine did not care if Mace was dead or not. He was in control now.So he never bothered to search for a body, maybe even thinking his body disappeared, since he knew of the force-immortality thing.
4)Mace may have force grabbed a rope while falling and swung on to a speeder at a painful rate. Then he might have been taken to safety.
5)He layed low for a while.
6)Mace had always had Dark side tendancies. He hated Anakin, He wanted to kill Palpatine, He even seemed like he wanted to take over the Republic to me. On top of that, I always saw him as having anger and hatred issues. So he had Dark Side tendancies.
7)While laying low, he met a girl, had a relationship.
8)Girl dies tragically somehow.
9)Mace decides to do something about it, most likely revenge, becouse the Empire may have been the reason she was executed. Other possibilities: Empire wanted her Dead or Alive. They hired Boba to capture her. When Boba realized who she was with, he decided just to kill her. Mace wants revenge on Empire and Boba now.
10)Mace goes to Bail Organa and asks for Yoda.
11) Goes to Dagobah.
12)Feeds a bit of garbage to Yoda to try and recruit him.
13)Yoda realizes he is on the Path to the Darkside and tries to save him.
14)Mace tries to argue with Yoda and at some point retaliates and fights Yoda on Dagobah.
15)They fight in the cave, and Yoda tragically Kills Mace in there,.
16)This would explain why the dark side was in the cave and why Luke had to fight against a similar fate such as the one that Mace and Anakin fell into.
17)It also explains why Yoda had a sad face when he sent Luke in there.


Some people's imaginations are FAR too wild and vivid for their own good.

[Saveeradeevaravaravee]

4)Mace may have force grabbed a rope while falling and swung on to a speeder at a painful rate. Then he might have been taken to safety.

Yes, I'm sure there was a random rope dangling from somewhere in the Coruscant sky. Maybe it was stuck to a cloud or something.


*Yoda survived a fall after fighting Palpatine. He was also hit from Lightning in that battle.

Of course, it is totally OK to compare a few dozen feet to 300 or so stories. There's really not much difference there.


*Palpatine, who is also an old Human, who was fighting Mace, also did not die after being struck with soo much lightning that he became deformed.

When, exactly, did this happen? I was under the impression that the deformity was from overuse of the Dark Side, not from being hit by lightning.


*Han survived Carbon freezing, which was thought to be impossible even by Lando.

"If you put him in there, it might kill him." Yes, that means it's impossible, alright.


Luke does battle with Vader, then gets zapped with lightning from Palpatine for longer periods of time than Mace or Palpatine and he still survived. And he still wasn't a full blown Jedi.

I don't think anyone ever blamed death on lightning. It was the 300-story fall.


*Remember Kenobi's battle with Jango when he fell off the platform. He had a rope that he slung to get back to safety.

He was also on a platform, where the top was much larger than the bottom. Maybe it's just me, but Coruscant buildings seem to be... not that.

But, hey, these very MINOR design flaws aside, I think he may be on to something here! It all makes perfect since now!

[/Sarcasm]

Not that I really care that much about it, but shooting down all of his points is just so much FUN! :D

[JMK]

He was reaching where there was nothing.

But since we're shredding his garbage to ribbons...


Palpatine, who is also an old Human, who was fighting Mace, also did not die after being struck with soo much lightning that he became deformed.
Here's the part that everyone forgets: The face of the chancellor, the face of the nice old man - IS THE MASK. The face of the wrinkled old dude is his natural state. His face became 'deformed' because that's how he really looks.


Remember Kenobi's battle with Jango when he fell off the platform. He had a rope that he slung to get back to safety.
Yes, and as I recall, it took Kenobi 2 hands to handle the rope and throw it, not one, as Windu was left with.
Or did he use the force to propel the rope to an anchor point where he could swing with his good hand to a safe haven.

Ugh.

[Darth McBain]

I won't get into the details of ripping this theory apart, but suffice to say there are WAY too many "what ifs" and outlandish ideas to make this at all credible.

[Jedieb]

It's no more ridiculous than the EU version of how Fett got out of the Sarlac. I agree, he's dead Jim. But if the powers that be thought they could squeeze some money out of keeping Mace alive, they'd do it. We saw the frickin' Emperor fall down a damn shaft and they brought him back, completely undermining the end of ROTJ and pretty much throwing a massive wet blanket on the whole Chosen One prophecy. So why wouldn't they bring Mace back? They're shameless I tell you, if they wanted to bring Mace back they would, logic be damned.

[JMK]

Which is exactly the reason why I renounced anything EU. I realized at one point that it was just taking a HUGE defecation on Lucas' story. But the powers that be figured they could squeeze more money out, so they did. Good business I guess.

[Saveeradeevaravaravee]

I have my doubts as to whether or not GL has actually approved most of the EU. Some of the books are definitely very contardictory. Still, I continue to read the books because I find them extremely interesting - particularly those stories by Timothy Zahn, Kevin W. Jeter, Kevin J. Anderson, and the group of authors who went in on the New Jedi Order. I spent my summer reading these books, and I just can't bring myself to denounce it. Too much lost pleasure for me.

Though, the books by those authors seem to be pretty consistant with the movies. I've not read anything so far that has been particularly or blatently contradictory, unless you count the resurrection of Boba Fett. I, personally, enjoyed that story - for the story, and not just because I wanted to see Fett return. Though, I admit that Kevin W. Jeter did manage to make me a Fett fan afterwards. I also read them in reverse order, for some reason; that may have had something to do with it, too.

As for Mace, however, I just don't see the point in bringing him back, regardless of how much "logic" you can put into it. To put it bluntly, I just don't like him.

[JMK]

I'm also sure that GL hasn't approved any of the EU stuff. I guess I'm too much of a Lucas loyalist (not to be confused with Lucas apologist) to buy in to anything that didn't come from his brain.
I did enjoy some of the EU stuff from the early-mid 90's but that's it. I can't remember the last one I read but I remember after finishing it that I wouldn't get in to another one.

[ReaperFett]

Originally posted by JMK
I'm also sure that GL hasn't approved any of the EU stuff.

That would mean you calling a lot of people liars.

[JMK]

Yeah...and? :p

[Jedieb]

I'm quite sure Lucas has approved ALL of the EU. But there's a difference between 'approving it' and 'paying attention' to it. Grievous is a perfect example. Did Lucas even make an attempt to stay true to Genndy's T. version of the character? No, he did what he wanted. That's what he's always done. Lucas simply doesn't pay attention to the EU. If somebody thinks he's fact checking page 105 of the latest EU book they're on crack. The EU is run by its own group of people at LFL and Lucas has virtually NOTHING to do with it. He simply doesn't care.

Hell, there are contradictions throughout the EU. We just saw two completely different showdowns between Mace and Grievous in the cartoon and the novel setting up ROTS. Even the Anakin/Obi-Wan storylines didn't match up well. For the 1,000,000 time, anyone that thinks the EU and movies match up perfectly are deluding themselves.


I spent my summer reading these books, and I just can't bring myself to denounce it. Too much lost pleasure for me.
I've bought and read just about every single EU novel printed. I can still laugh at it and enjoy it when it obviously doesn't make sense. To me, it's not about denouncing it. I can read and appreciate the Dark Empire comics even though I think Palpy's ressurection was beyond lame. I don't bother myself with whether or not it "fits." Who cares? I just want to read some Star Wars stories.


As for Mace, however, I just don't see the point in bringing him back, regardless of how much "logic" you can put into it. To put it bluntly, I just don't like him.
I feel the same way about the Fetts. I think they're the most overrated characters in the SW universe. I take perverse pleasure in seeing Mace decapitate the purple wonder. It's even funnier when Dr. Jones sends him flying through the air and screaming like a frightened girl to his death. But they brought him back for $$$, and they'd do it for Mace if they wanted to. And it would be just as lame, actually, it'd be even dumber.

Hey, I LOVE the cartoons, but here's something to ponder about the Battle of Geonosis. Why didn't Mace just tell all the other Jedi to have a seat while he took care of business? After all, the Clone Wars cartoons taught us that Mace can singlehandedly defeat hundreds of battle droids. He doesn't even need his lightsaber, he can punch the crap out of them and rip them apart with his bare hands.

Ah, fictional universes, so much fun and so easy to point out the inconsistencies. :evil

[ReaperFett]

Originally posted by Jedieb
I'm quite sure Lucas has approved ALL of the EU. But there's a difference between 'approving it' and 'paying attention' to it. Grievous is a perfect example. Did Lucas even make an attempt to stay true to Genndy's T. version of the character? No, he did what he wanted. That's what he's always done. Lucas simply doesn't pay attention to the EU. If somebody thinks he's fact checking page 105 of the latest EU book they're on crack. The EU is run by its own group of people at LFL and Lucas has virtually NOTHING to do with it. He simply doesn't care.
I agree. Coruscant, Vos and Aayla may have got in through the EU, but he could have done anything he wanted to.



Reguarding the subject, I can see how the Emperor or Boba could survive. But Mace? No way. Anyone who thinks that possible is just silly :)

[Darth McBain]

Originally posted by Jedieb
I feel the same way about the Fetts. I think they're the most overrated characters in the SW universe. I take perverse pleasure in seeing Mace decapitate the purple wonder. It's even funnier when Dr. Jones sends him flying through the air and screaming like a frightened girl to his death.

Amen brother...

[JMK]

Originally posted by Jedieb
I'm quite sure Lucas has approved ALL of the EU. But there's a difference between 'approving it' and 'paying attention' to it.

I guess that's a little more accurate to what I meant. He probably doesn't care what they do, so long as he doesn't have to give any credibility to it. He disregards it at his leisure. If he didn't approve it in some form, there'd be no EU $$$. He's enjoying the best of both worlds.

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

After just watching The Incredibles again, I'm further convinced that GL completely squandered what he had in Sam Jackson. Jackson's voicework is phenominal, and there is so much acting that goes on behind the scenes - unfortunately alot of people disregard that..

Mace Windu had alot of potential. I'm saddened that Jackson wasn't able to really cut loose and act.

[Jedieb]

Jason Todd LIVES!!!! If that character can be brought back to life, then so can Mace. I was just looking at some comic book reviews and there's the petulant, annoying former Robin that comic book readers gleefully voted to death years ago back in the thick of Batman comic books. Ughh. That's where we're at with the EU now. No one will ever really be 'dead.' They'll just be on vacation for awhile. It doesn't matter that he SHOULD be dead. It doesn't matter that that's want Lucas obviously intended the audience believe. If they want him back, they'll bring him. Personally, I'd love to see some flying Force Monkeys come to his rescue. If you're going to do something stupid, then go REALLY stupid.

"Thank you for saving my life my simian friends. Now, I must go into hiding. This party's over!"


Originally posted by s'Ilancy
After just watching The Incredibles again, I'm further convinced that GL completely squandered what he had in Sam Jackson. Jackson's voicework is phenominal, and there is so much acting that goes on behind the scenes - unfortunately alot of people disregard that..

Mace Windu had alot of potential. I'm saddened that Jackson wasn't able to really cut loose and act.

Natalie Portman
Liam Neeson
Hayden
Ewan

They can all be members of that club.

[JMK]

No kidding. The entire series (even the OT is guilty of it, but not as much) is laden with wooden acting. Sam Jackson was totally wasted as Windu. He's the one that suffers most because we know what he CAN do. I think that Ewan and Hayden were given opportunities and they made the most of them - i.e. their duel on Mustafar. Hayden's anger seemed real to me, and Obi Wan's steely resolve was just as real. But that's about it.

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

If only this scene replaced Anakin's and Mace's talk before Windu goes to confront Palpatine *sigh*


Mace: Honey...??
Mrs. Windu: What?
Mace: Where's my lightsabre?!
Mrs. Windu: What?
Mace: Where... is my... LIGHTSABRE??!
Mrs. Windu: I uh... put it away.
Mace: Where?!
Mrs. Windu: Whyyy... do you need to know??
Mace: I neeeed it!
Mrs. Windu: Nuh uh! Don't you even think of runnin' off and fightin' Sith! We've been plannin' this dinner for two months!!
Mace: The public is in danger!!
Mrs. Windu: My EVENING is in danger!!
Mace: You tell me where my sabre is, woman!! We are talking about the greater good!
Mrs. Windu: Greater good??! I am you're WIFE! I'm the greatest good you are EVER gonna get!





Come to think of it, I might try and get screencaps of that whole exchange and draw it out :)

[JMK]

:lol

[ReaperFett]

Originally posted by Jedieb
Jason Todd LIVES!!!! If that character can be brought back to life, then so can Mace.
And Bucky :)



Originally posted by Jedieb

Natalie Portman
Liam Neeson
Hayden
Ewan

They can all be members of that club.
I really don't think there was anything wrong with McGregor, especially not Neeson.

[JMK]

The acting in the PT certainly got better as it progressed, and McGregor and Neeson had very few moments where the acting made you cringe but unfortunately a lot of the people they interacted with were like sticks. That hurts their performances too.

[Jedieb]

Neeson probably gave the best performance in TPM. He certainly wasn't a weakness, but even he's admitted that TPM's performances were "wooden." That's what I'm referring to. They could have been so much better. Ewan was solid throughout, but even he had lines to deliver that were just plain awkward and could have been delivered better, but frankly, I just don't think he was allowed to.


And Bucky
Holy crap, the stupidity never ends!

[ReaperFett]

Originally posted by Jedieb

Holy crap, the stupidity never ends!

Really good story though.

[Jedieb]

Hush was friggin' brilliant and Todd's character was at the heart of it. It's possible to get a good story out of bringing back a dead character. But it's still pretty silly. So how'd they bring Bucky back?

[Jedi Master Carr]

Well the comics have killed off every character and brought them back. How many times has Jean died? Or Dr. Doom, every member of the X-Men has died and been resurrected it seemed even Collossus, whose death was very fitting. Not sure if they will bring back Mace or not. Sure they could if they wanted to, but they might not think he is that popular of a character. Although, considering they brought back Jason Todd and Bucky (two very unpopular characters) what do I know.

[JediBoricua]

Oh when will the EU give poor old Porkins a break!!!

Everyone knows that after his X-Wing exploded he fell through a chinmney in the Death Star and was able to pass as a Santa Clause impersonator. Afterwards, he tricked an imperial officer into giving him a TIE fighter.

I would kill for a comic about Porkins fighting crime and injustice in the GFFA!!!

[Jedieb]

:lol

[Doc Milo]

On the whole EU vs. Movies debate:

I look at it this way. The movies are the "Truth" ie: they are exactly what happened in the SW universe over that specific galactic era. They are not an historical account of what happened, written from a point of view; they are what happened.

The EU would be like the media accounts: second hand, written from someone's point of view, stories spreading across the galaxy. They have grains of truth, grains of lies, grains of legend, and grains of myth. They are the "mythology" of the SW universe. They are the "movies of the week"; they are the stories in the National Enquirer; they are the stories related over talk radio; they are the Dan Rather reports where facts are not checked as thoroughly as they could be before being sent to "print." The novelizations are the legitimate news stories. Very close to the actual events, but also second hand and thus certain "facts" get confused, such as Ben telling Luke that Anakin didn't know Padme was pregnant.

There is only one Truth: The Movies and the movies alone.

All else is media mythology.

[thx-1138stormfett]

Originally posted by Jedieb
There's only one reason characters like Boba Fett and Maul keep getting resurrected; $$$. The SW Tales with Maul was probably the best seller they ever had. And bringing Fett back to life, no matter how nonsensical and improbable, got done for the same reason. Fett stories sell comics and books, that's why he's back. If they thought they could do the same with Mace, they'd do it too.


The only reason they brought fett back is because he is god.And for more money i guess but still he is god!!!!!