Once and for all...

[JMK]

Did Dooku know that Sidious WAS Palpatine? And why didn't he spill the beans to Anakin before getting his melon lopped off?

Without quoting the novel, because things in previous novelizations have been discounted, did Dooku know about Palpatine's duality?

This has been blogged about endlessly at the OS. The consensus there is that yes, Dooku knew about Sidious, and didn't reveal anything because he was in shock that his master had betrayed him.

Personally, I am in the huge minority there. I do not believe that Dooku knew about Palpatine's true motivations. Based on the movies alone, Dooku never refers to Palpatine as Sidious. He tells Obi Wan that hundreds of senators are under the control of a Sith Lord called Darth Sidious. He never says that the Sith Lord is the Chancellor. Telling Obi Wan that would have only helped his cause.

There's a theory about that both Dooku and Sidious were together planning to convert Anakin to the dark side. Fair enough, but then why would Dooku allow himself to duel with Obi Wan and Anakin a second time? The fight wasn't going to stop until one of them was dead, and if there's one thing about Sith Lords, it's that they don't want to give up anything - especially their lives.

I think Sidious never told Dooku that he was going to engineer his own kidnapping so as to lure the 2 Jedi Knights back to rescue him. Why would he? It doesn't make sense to me.

Sidious: "Ok Dooku, as you know, I'm really the Chancellor, but I want more power. I want to rule the galaxy. So I want you to get this Grievous guy to snatch me out of my office and bring me aboard his ship. The Jedi will have no choice but to get Kenobi and Skywalker here to rescue me. Once they're here, you'll have to fight them. Now be careful, I want Anakin to join us. If you kill him, then it wasn't meant to be, but if he kills you...uh never mind"

Dooku: "Great idea! There's no way that kid will beat me, with or without his master. I'll turn them both to ground beef, so you're stuck with me as your sidekick. I like this idea very much. We get rid of 2 more Jedi, we find out whether or not Skywalker is ripe for the picking, and we get rid of the Separatists."

Sidious: (under his breath) "Sucker."

I think it's far more likely that Sidious approached Dooku, told him that he has control of the Senate, and that if they can manage to get rid of the Chancellor, the Republic is theirs for the taking. So he told him to gather his separatist forces and kidnap the chancellor. It all would have made perfect sense to Dooku. Cut off the head of your enemy and the body dies. Simple. So that's what he did. He formed an army and gathered up anyone who would oppose him and Sidious, then had this new army they had commissioned to wipe them out. Then he and Sidious could rule all. Of course, Dooku has other plans, to seduce his own apprentice and take out Sidious. That's how the Sith work. There's only 2 of them, and they 'think inward, only about themselves'.

I can't get my head around the theory that Dooku would willingly let himself be potentially killed in order to seduce his own replacement. There was no way in hell that Anakin would ever join him after he killed other Jedi and cut off his arm, so Dooku would be the odd man out in all scenarios.

So going back to his death scene, I can't imagine Dooku bending over for the good of the Sith and not squealing on Palpatine. I'm sure he knew that Anakin would never join him, but at least, in true selfish Sith fashion, he would betray his own master and further confuse the situation. It was worth a try, but it didn't happen because, IMO, he didn't know.

[Jedieb]

I think he knew. The best evidence I have to offer is when Dooku tells Obi-Wan on Geonosis that the Republic is under the control of a Darl Lord of the Sith. Also, we saw that only when Mace battled Sidious did his physical appearance change. I find it hard to believe that Dooku and Sidious would spend years together, studying the ways of the Sith, and Dooku never got a look at his mug.

[JMK]

I see you working there. The only problem I have with that is the fact that when Dooku told him that the senators were being controlled by a Dark Lord, that it would have helped him even more to tell him 'Did you know that the Chancellor is actually a Sith Lord controlling the senate?' Imagine the wrench that would have thrown into the Jedi machine? It would have interrupted Sidious' ultimate plan too, but Dooku never really cared about that. He wanted an apprentice of his own.

You're right about one thing, Dooku and Sidious spent enough time together that you would think that Dooku would have put 2 and 2 together. But I think Sidious was able to control his transformations as easily as he can control his urge to pee. Sidious doesn't necessarily look like Palpy's twin brother, so maybe Dooku never saw Palpy's face under Sidious' robes.

[Eldorack]

Originally posted by JMK
I see you working there. The only problem I have with that is the fact that when Dooku told him that the senators were being controlled by a Dark Lord, that it would have helped him even more to tell him 'Did you know that the Chancellor is actually a Sith Lord controlling the senate?' Imagine the wrench that would have thrown into the Jedi machine? It would have interrupted Sidious' ultimate plan too, but Dooku never really cared about that. He wanted an apprentice of his own.

You're right about one thing, Dooku and Sidious spent enough time together that you would think that Dooku would have put 2 and 2 together. But I think Sidious was able to control his transformations as easily as he can control his urge to pee. Sidious doesn't necessarily look like Palpy's twin brother, so maybe Dooku never saw Palpy's face under Sidious' robes.

I agree but i think that he should have made the connection between the two

[James Prent]

I think Dooku knew. Grevious did NOT know, but Dooku did.

He looked shocked when Palpatine told Anakin to kill him because he was probably expecting Sidious to rise up and help him kill the Jedi. A devious betrayal of Dooku resulted in Anakin's rise to the apprenticeship.

[Jedieb]

Grevious was nothing but a tool. I really think the plan was for Dooku to be taken captive while killing Obi-Wan, thus making Anakin easier to seduce without his Master. Remember, Palpatine tried to get Anakin to leave Obi-Wan behind, but Anakin still had enough good in him that he wouldn't abandon his master. Back to Dooku, I think Dooku expected to spend the remainder of the war under arrest. He then would have worked out something out with the surrender of the seperatists. Deep down, he knew not to trust Sidious, but I think he had more time to put his own betrayal into practice.

[Ambrose Braeden]

Originally posted by Jedieb
Grevious was nothing but a tool. I really think the plan was for Dooku to be taken captive while killing Obi-Wan, thus making Anakin easier to seduce without his Master. Remember, Palpatine tried to get Anakin to leave Obi-Wan behind, but Anakin still had enough good in him that he wouldn't abandon his master. Back to Dooku, I think Dooku expected to spend the remainder of the war under arrest. He then would have worked out something out with the surrender of the seperatists. Deep down, he knew not to trust Sidious, but I think he had more time to put his own betrayal into practice.

I agree with that. I firmly believe that grevious's only purpose was to kill obi-wan so it would be easier to seduce anakin.

[Doc Milo]

I believe Dooku knew that Palaptine and Sidious were one and the same. I don't believe it would have helped his cause to tell Obi-Wan that Sidious was the chancellor, not yet . . . not until he knew whether or not Obi-Wan would join him. Dookus true intentions in talking with Obi-Wan was to turn him to the dark side, not to overthrow the Sith, as he stated.

Palpatine could have told Dooku that he wants to turn Anakin to the dark side, and they would do it together, so they engineer the kid-napping. It is not a given that Dooku knew that he would have to die for Anakin to take his place. With Palpatine in control of the Senate, Dooku would know the only thing standing in the way of Sith total domination was the Jedi. Dooku might believe the only way to rid the galaxy of the Jedi would be to either turn them dark, or destroy them with an army of Sith -- Palpatine could easily convince Dooku that he was doing away with the only two rule (if Dooku even knew it existed to begin with.) Finally, there is the duel between Anakin and Dooku in RotS, after Obi-Wan is taken out of comission. We see Dooku goading Anakin to turn dark, like a tutor -- "You have anger, you have hate, but you don't use them." And we see when Dooku is disarmed by Anakin that he is shocked when Palpatine orders Anakin to kill him -- shocked by betrayal.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I agree here with Doc, I think Dooku knew. He wasn't a fool, I am sure he put two and two together a long time ago. However, he was pretty guliable thinking Palpatine would just let him go like that. I remember in the novelization they dealt with his thought and he thought he was going to exile at worst, I think he never saw the betrayal coming.

[JMK]

It all makes sense, but I still don't understand why Dooku agreed to fight them both knowing full well that he could get whacked at any second, while his master reaps all the rewards.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Arrogance is my only answer. He was so arrogant to think that Palpatine wouldn't kill him because he needed for some reason.

[JMK]

Maybe you're right. But if the plan was to convert Anakin, Dooku was nuts to pick a fight with him and try to <smallfont color={hovercolor}>-Censored-</smallfont> him off further. Maybe Palpatine never told Dooku that he wanted to convert Anakin and replace him as his apprentice.

[Nathanial K'cansce]

I think Dooku, in that respect, still thought of Anakin as this young pup you had a bigger head and mouth than his actions could back up. From the movies, the way a Sith seems to turn a Jedi to the Dark Side is to basically give him no other option, no other hope. By agreeing to fight Obi Wan and Anakin again, Dooku was probably thinking, "Obi easy to take care off, kill him or severly injury him and put him out of the fight early" - which he did, and then with Anakin... "He's still young, let him know that I know his weaknesses, his fear, his anger. I'm still the better swordsman, hell one of the best in the galaxy, he's got nothing on me".

Then, if all went to his plan, he probably would have cornered Anakin, converted him, and then dropped the bombshell: "Your good friend Palpatine is the Sith Lord... he's been using you." And then Dooku would have planned then to take out Palpatine.

To answer the intitial question: Yea, Dooku knew. His facial expression of pure surprise and shock and betrayal when Palpy says "kill him" is a dead give away, IMO.

[Doc Milo]

I think he might even have felt secure that Palpatine / Sidious was right there in the room with him. There is no way Sidious couldn't get out of his bonds very easily. Dooku probably thouht if he (Dooku) gets in trouble, Sidous will help out. Together, they would turn Anakin dark, and the three of them would begin recruiting others, or taking them out. Dooku, IMO, saw Palpatine/Sidous as being the mastermind controlling the galaxy, putting him (Dooku) in charge of this masterful Sith army that would maintain control.

Think back to RotJ. Palpatine tells Vader to bring Luke before him, because Luke has grown powerful, and "only together" would they be able to turn him.

Remember ESB, where Anakin suggests that Luke join them. And Palpatine agrees. Palpatine, as we see, is not readily going to let go of the "only two" rule. But Vader doesn't seem to know about the rule, or, if he does, thinks it doesn't truly apply anymore (or has his own ideas in mind...)

My point is, it isn't beyond Palpatine/Sidous' character to use the "only together can we turn him" tactic -- and then betray the Sith apprentice. In RotJ, he orders Luke to destroy Vader and "take your father's place at my side." If Vader knew this was the ultimate end to the fight, then he willingly was giving himself to Sidious; Dooku could be doing the same. But I don't believe that to be the case. Dooku and Vader seem to be led to believe that other Sith can be trained other than the two in existence.