Petrol

[Telan Desaria]

The European term for gasoline. I am European, but it seems interminably trapped in Amerika. And here, in Allentown Pennsylvania, the price of said liquid gold has risen forty cents in four days.

2.81 at WAWA

2.63 at Sunoco

2.51 at Hess

The Hess is located diagonally from the local WAWA. I went there off duty to get gass because of the 30-cents per gallon difference - needless to say the lines were atrocious - they stretched down the block and into the roadway. When I finally arrived at the pump after a thirty-minute wait -and that mind you is by using the light and siren in my personal vehcile - I saw a fight break out between two people, one of whom had cut the other off after a long stay behind another car. I broke them up and sent them both away - I could understand the frustration of both parties and arrested neither.

I have a question for general consumption - how much worse can this get? And when will the prices recede? The more apt, though hopefully outlandish question is more dire - will we run out of petrol???

[Lilaena De'Ville]

We're at or around $2.69-72 a gallon.

[Marceloi]

1) It ISNT going to run out. There's plenty of oil that's now economically viable to get.

2) The problem is refining capacity. There's simply not enough capacity. Eventually there will be additioanl, but you've seen the last of cheap petrol, especially as there's India and China who can and will pay more for it than the USA.

Get used to paying for fuel what the rest of the world pays.

[Telan Desaria]

How much higher will it get and when will the Amerikan companies/departments for which we all work raise their wages to compensate for the rising petrol prices that have more than tripled in a half-decade.

[Jedi Master Carr]

People in the rest of the world pay more for it because of Gas taxes. Europeans gas is heavily taxed, but most people there don't drive so really it isn't that big of a deal. Here our gas is lightly taxed so it should never reach the heights of Europe. The problem now is the Refiners that is what is raising the prices and then you have morons who panic and run to the gas. I am serious where I live it looks like 1981, people are fools to panic like that it drives the gas prices up even farther. It shouldn't be above $3 bucks, before this it was going down to probably around $2 and maybe even less in someplaces, the hurricane changed that. Hopefully, they can get some of these refiners back and going and the prices will stablized and start to return to where they were.

[Figrin D'an]

Expect it to spike to as high as $3.50 to $4.00 per gallon in some places, at the very least until the Gulf Coast refineries can restart and begin production again. And even then, there will still be the plaforms in the Gulf itself that will need repair.

Two small measures that should help a bit: executive orders were enacted today to both release a certain amount of the US oil reserves, and the EPA formulation restrictions have been lifted at least until September 15th. The first will only help compensate for the lack of crude being pumped from the Gulf platforms, and it still needs to be refined. The second will hopefully help to stabilize national prices over the next week or so, since basically any formulation can now be sold in any city/region.

[Sanis Prent]

I'm seriously looking at taking the bus to work now. After that, who knows. If this thing goes long term on me, I may have to get crafty and buy a used VW diesel and rig it for bio :)

[Telan Desaria]

Do tell how, Snais - -and I shall follow suit

[Morgan Evanar]

Originally posted by Telan Desaria
Do tell how, Snais - -and I shall follow suit Look it up online.

Also, you have a "c" on your keyboard, start using it.

[Marceloi]

Originally posted by Jedi Master Carr
People in the rest of the world pay more for it because of Gas taxes. Europeans gas is heavily taxed, but most people there don't drive so really it isn't that big of a deal. Here our gas is lightly taxed so it should never reach the heights of Europe.

No, that's truly not all. You get your oil in the first place cheaper than what they do in Europe. The cost to get fuel to a bowser is genuinely more than in the USA, where you have built up a greater dependance and thence greater exposure to price hikes. Now that your no longer able to get fuel for cheap as refining capacity is so marginal, your now actually seeing real world pricing.

[Mandy with an I]

You also have to realise, we have meteric here, so we're paying 97.9 cents a litre, soon to be $1.20 :|

[Morgan Evanar]

That sounds about the same with the currency conversion, actually.

[Telan Desaria]

Indeed it does

what does a "c" have to do with anything?

[Morgan Evanar]

Amerikan

[Jedi Master Carr]

Originally posted by Marceloi
No, that's truly not all. You get your oil in the first place cheaper than what they do in Europe. The cost to get fuel to a bowser is genuinely more than in the USA, where you have built up a greater dependance and thence greater exposure to price hikes. Now that your no longer able to get fuel for cheap as refining capacity is so marginal, your now actually seeing real world pricing.

But there are people here paying more money for gas then elsewhere in the world now. One gas station in Atlanta is selling it for 5.50 now that is price guaging. It isn't that expensive in Europe.

[Marceloi]

Originally posted by Jedi Master Carr
But there are people here paying more money for gas then elsewhere in the world now. One gas station in Atlanta is selling it for 5.50 now that is price guaging. It isn't that expensive in Europe.

I'm paying nearly 5 a gallon for 98 RIGHT NOW. In finland, it's over 8 dollars right now.

I'm tempted to give you guys a reality check rant, but I think the fact your now seeing petrol prices what they really are elsewhere is enough.

[Yog]

Currently, we pay on average 7$ per gallon here, and most people neither complain or care. This is in the country that is the third largest oil exporter in the world, the majority being light crude used for petrol fuel. And believe it or not, people in Europe do use cars a means of daily transportation (not me though).

[Y'roth Helghast]

Nice enough, the governor of Georgia called a state of emergency and a freeze on the gas prices. 75% of Georgia's gas supply seemed to come out of Louisiana, go figure, so most gas stations won't get a refill til a little after Labor Day, so they're rationing out gas and I think the nearest station from campus it frozen at the price around 4 dollars.

So yeah, everyone else pays a lot more than we do /gallon but this is still quite an economical rush for us, especially impoverished college students.

[Marceloi]

http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/3479/kif11880tl.th.jpg (http://img357.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kif11880tl.jpg)

1 AUD = 75 US cents. Filled up tonight.

Anyone still think they are hard done by, line up for a panning now.

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

Perchance, is there any way we can have a more constructive discussion other than this stupid "my gas is more expensive" bullcrap? :|

[Morgan Evanar]

Maybe people will stop driving gas-sucking drunk lumbering land turds so much?

[Sanis Prent]

And if I was driving such a thing, I'd be less apt to B&M, but I drive a pretty middle-of-the road V6, and frequently use the cargo carrying capacity of my vehicle.

[Marceloi]

Originally posted by s'Ilancy
Perchance, is there any way we can have a more constructive discussion other than this stupid "my gas is more expensive" bullcrap? :|

Yeah well maybe you can if the rest of the civilised world didnt keep on hearing B&M about fuel prices from the USA when frankly yours are bloody low. It's genuinely infuriating to hear some SUV driving soccer mum bitch when she's paying a third of the price here AND she's drivign somethign that could fuel three sensible hatchbacks for the same amount of fuel her thirsty land barge takes. Why the hell wouldnt someone like me get steamed up? USA people had it good, now you can just deal the reality places like Europe and Aussieland have. What your frigging car fleet is apparently 54% damn gas guzzling land barges, that's just disgusting. The majority of those people have been irresonsible and hugely wasteful because of the unnaturalyl cheap fuel you could throw away.

I know this rant sounds vicious and spiteful but frankly I'm glad the majoirity of US residents are now getting a wake up that they should have had a decade ago before the 'SUV' craze choked your freeways with fuel guzzling crap. Do you have any idea just how much more fuel the average USA resident uses over and above the average Developed country resident? It's literally double. Mainly due to the poliferation of 'SUV's that simply arent needed.


And if I was driving such a thing, I'd be less apt to B&M, but I drive a pretty middle-of-the road V6, and frequently use the cargo carrying capacity of my vehicle.

Mate, I know the pain. I dont drive a 4WD for giggles, I use it for working and towing and the present prices are savage. You got the right to have a B&M, because you actualyl use yours for it's intended purpose. I'm saving my ire for the trucks that never tow, never haul loads, never go offroad and barely get used to pick up beer at Liquorland. As far as I'm conccerned, Mrs Smith picking up Johnny from a Sydney school in a Landcruiser can go screw herself if she doesnt like the fact she pays 100 dollars a refill. WTF dont they get a Corolla instead if they dont like the price, it'll suit what they drive for.

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

Originally posted by Marceloi
Yeah well maybe you can if the rest of the civilised world didnt keep on hearing B&M about fuel prices from the USA when frankly yours are bloody low. It's genuinely infuriating to hear some SUV driving soccer mum bitch when she's paying a third of the price here AND she's drivign somethign that could fuel three sensible hatchbacks for the same amount of fuel her thirsty land barge takes. Why the hell wouldnt someone like me get steamed up? USA people had it good, now you can just deal the reality places like Europe and Aussieland have. What your frigging car fleet is apparently 54% damn gas guzzling land barges, that's just disgusting. The majority of those people have been irresonsible and hugely wasteful because of the unnaturalyl cheap fuel you could throw away.

I know this rant sounds vicious and spiteful but frankly I'm glad the majoirity of US residents are now getting a wake up that they should have had a decade ago before the 'SUV' craze choked your freeways with fuel guzzling crap. Do you have any idea just how much more fuel the average USA resident uses over and above the average Developed country resident? It's literally double. Mainly due to the poliferation of 'SUV's that simply arent needed.


Be that as it may, most of the members here aren't SUV driving soccer moms raising a fuss. Most of us on Fans are students or average working people who drive what they can. If you want to tell people "haha, you're getting what you deserve", go find a soccer mom forum and rant at them. A majority of the posters here who hail from the states would rather not listen to someone saying we're spoiled because we had cheaper prices at the pump.

[JMK]

$1.35/liter for me in Montreal now, about $5.10/gallon which converts to roughly $4.00 US/gallon.

It sucks driving a 4.0 liter / V6 vehicle right now. It will cost me $94 to fill this sucker at the current price.

[Telan Desaria]

I am well aware that Ami prices are lower than the rest of the world. However, so is the general wage limit. Et ceteris parabus - in Ami-land, the ratio between the price of gas the general wage was at least on par. Now there are many who cannot get ahead and are now falling behind, carefully hoarded savings being rapidly depleted to pay for work. That Ami prices were low is not the issue - that AMI prices are rising is the concern. And while theprices are rising so are the prices of other goods and services, but the wages people make to pay for them are not.

I drive a 1986-Chevrolet Blazer V-6. It is a monstrosity when compared to something like a Saturn or a beloved Volkswagon. However, I use its durability and 4-wheel drive during inclement weather and when responding to an emergency. If I am driving along the road and I see a vehicle in distress, I can respond according to my training and maximize the chances I have to save someone - I am not limited by the inabilities of my vehcile. Does it get good gas mileage - no.

I can say from experience, we have discussed at the Firehouse for many weeks the reason ours and other departments have seen a drastic reduction in the number of officers and men that respond to emergencies - they cannot afford the gas. When our apparatus does respond, we are limited in what we deploy because we cannot afford to bring everything and, as a result in the future, our ability to save lives will diminish.

There are automobiles out there that run on hydrogen and are extremely fuel effieicnt, or even autos that run on petrol but get 30 and more miles/gallon. They have not made been allowed immediate import because the AMI government forbids it - the coffers of petrol companies would shrink and their leaders would make only millions to the billions they are making now. In Amerika, the good of the individual's pocket outweighs the common good and the welfare of the general populace.

A sad story, but a true one.

The world is changing. Perhaps it is time for me to move to Australia...or Britian. At least there, mass transit is sufficient to sustain life.

[Jedi Master Carr]

How about people who make only 5.50 an hour? If the price for gas was 5.50 they couldn't afford to put gas in a tank to work, they are basically working to pay for gas. Look maybe rich people can afford those prices but most people in the states especially those here, I know I can't afford to pay that much for gas. Most of us would be better off riding a bike to work that is how bad it is for us who make less than 30k a year. I can't imagine how bad it is for those who have to drive an hour to work. I still don't think people in Europe drive that much which is why prices like that don't matter. I have talked to people from France and most of them don't even own cars.

[Telan Desaria]

I work two jobs and in one I drive only ten minutes - the other is 20 AMi miles away. You are very true the minimum wage is what - 5.15 per hour? Peo9ple at such prices cannot live on that. Why is nothing being done to curb excess such as banning SUVs and all vehciles that get less than say 14 miles/gallon or raising said wage.

[Morgan Evanar]

There are automobiles out there that run on hydrogen and are extremely fuel effieicnt, or even autos that run on petrol but get 30 and more miles/gallon. They have not made been allowed immediate import because the AMI government forbids it - the coffers of petrol companies would shrink and their leaders would make only millions to the billions they are making now. In Amerika, the good of the individual's pocket outweighs the common good and the welfare of the general populace.
You're a moron. The Honda Civic I drive every day gets 30 city and 40 highway. The Toyota Corolla gets the same milage.

The VW Golf/Jetta diesels get 35/45, and my mom's hybrid has never seen a tank less than 46 mpg. The Civic hybrid gets about 50 mpg, but it's smaller. Smaller still is the Honda Insight, and it gets 55+ city and ~70 highway.

No, we do not get the super small, super efficient cars, but there hasn't been a demand for them, although both the Prius and Civic Hybrid have waiting lists.

Your grasp of how a moderately regulated free market works is appalling.

[Telan Desaria]

Very well - then 20 miles per gallon, is that sufficient? You are correct, I do not, but then I am not a capitalist nor a business administrator. Those things are alien to me and I have no wish to know them. Nothing of what I said is false or distorted - there is no demanded for such vehicles because larger less fuel efficient vehicles are available. If the government were to ban and recall all SUVs and inefficient vehciles, then there would be such a demand and things would slacken on the demand side.

I fail to see why you continue to insult me when I have never done so to you.

[Marceloi]

Originally posted by s'Ilancy
A majority of the posters here who hail from the states would rather not listen to someone saying we're spoiled because we had cheaper prices at the pump.


I hate to say this, but it's exactly what most USA people do need to hear because unfortunantly it's true and you need to change driving habits very quickly. The reality is the fuel wastage of the USA is biting the rest of the world right now too. While refining capacity is in short supply, it would be less tenuos if if the majority of USA drivers actually had better car buying habits. I can say exactly the same thing to the mums here who drive Toorak Tractors and believe me I do. It annoys the hell out of me seeing these bullbar wearing monsters picking up the kiddies at 3pm. WHY??? 4WD's make lousy daily drivers!

Now maybe I can afford the pump prices, but the other fact is if the prices keep going thorugh the roof everyone's economy is going to suffer and everyone globally's going to feel the bite. It's frustrating knowing that why I'm paying high prices has got more to do with the 'SUV' craze in America and the huge US domestic demand that outstrips even China than genuine supply problems. There's also oil speculators driving the price up, but in the end the real problem is the way oil is used.

Unfortunatly high prices are exactly what people (Yes even here, there's too many bloody 4WD's choking our streets) need to experience to force car buying and use habits to change.

And Telan, if you really think public transport is good here, your even more mistaken than usual. It's pathetic. If you want a real transport rant, wait till I have the opportunity to open up with both barrels on the stupidity that is Sydney's public transport system. Sydney people really got what they deserved.


If the government were to ban and recall all SUVs and inefficient vehciles, then there would be such a demand and things would slacken on the demand side.


Words fail me. Do you realise how silly that is?

[Shawn]

Unless somebody can think of something constructive to add, this thread is going to get the lock.

[Telan Desaria]

Enough insults.

My point is this - inefficient vehicles as well as horrid driving habits create demand. Oil companies receive large profits and can raise their prices at will. If the demand were to shrink than so too would the price in their attempt to return buyers to the market.

Simply said: reduce/eliminate inefficient vehicles.

As per Australia, yes, I was told that the mass transit system was excellent. It is not so?

[Jedi Master Carr]

The U.S has one of the worst public transportation systems in the western World, IMO. Don't get me started about the south. There is none in this area, not really, and this area has a population of about 100 thousand. Of course the Europeans have the best public transportation system I wish the U.S could follow their model.

[General Dan]

Then shrink our metropolitan areas and everywhere outside by a factor of a lot. Public transit isn't feasable in most places because the distances to traverse are simply not economically viable.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Well the the govt. would have to invest money into a major rail way that is really the only way. If we had major train systems like they have in Europe then the public transportation would be better.

[Morgan Evanar]

Originally posted by Jedi Master Carr
Well the the govt. would have to invest money into a major rail way that is really the only way. If we had major train systems like they have in Europe then the public transportation would be better. Europe's rail system exists the way it does by virtue of population density.

[General Dan]

Originally posted by Jedi Master Carr
Well the the govt. would have to invest money into a major rail way that is really the only way. If we had major train systems like they have in Europe then the public transportation would be better.

Hang on let me press the MAKE MORE MONEY button on my money machine gimme 5 minutes

[Sejah Haversh]

I drive a '93 Ford Explorer Eddie Bauer with a 4.6 litre V6. I get 18 mpg on average, and have the ability to haul a whoooole bunch of stuff when I need to.

Yes, gas is expensive, but good ol' Buford will run on 84 octane gas. Note, 84 is the lowest octane in this area. I have seen 80 in some places in the midwest.

I drive at least thirty-two miles a day, and those are American miles because I'm in America, and usually miles are the same distance in the SAE measurement system. I also drive that distance sevn days a week, adn sometimes more if I need to make extra trips. But, I'm dealing with it. I wouldn't trade my "land-barge" for something else because I like it. It's comfortable, fits in a compact parking spot, looks pretty, and drives very well. The talk about banning big vehicles is simply idiocy. Some people want large vehicles, and I am one of them. Some people have large familes to move, and need a large vehicle to do it. Vans get just as bad of mileage sometimes, so don't even go there.

I do plan on fixing my Audi diesel and rig it to run on bio-diesel, but that'll be several months from now, and I don't like how it drives as well as I like how Buford drives. I pay what the pump charges. Yeah, it seems high because I'm used to lower prices, but I'm not moaning about it. I'm just not buying pop anymore, which is a good thing for me anyway. I do feel bad for those just barely scraping by that are really hurt by this price increase, but I am also one of those people. I don't make much. I work two jobs, and I'm still scraping by. But, I at least understand how fuel prices work, and supply and demand. I'm also still planning on building my custom car and putting a supercharged 302 in it. Sometimes you just have to buck up and pay for what you use.

[Telan Desaria]

For people that need such vehicles, they would be allowed - and 18mpg is not unheard of. However, to use it to go from Philadelphia to New York without cargo in its space is wasteful and it is that excess which I speak of. If you are using the vehcile for what it was made for then I have no qualms. I ask about the mothers who have ONE child and buy an SUV that seats six and never use its cargo capacity. I speak of the teenager who buys a Ford F450 and never uses the hauling power or bed.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Originally posted by Dan the Man
Hang on let me press the MAKE MORE MONEY button on my money machine gimme 5 minutes
First off it wouldn't take that much money, most of the railroad tracks are allready in place it is just a matter of putting resources into them. Also Amtrack will have to be overhalled. Sure it could take as much several billion but if it would help us get out of relying on the arab world to give us are fuel then I am all for it.

[Telan Desaria]

There once was an extensive transit system in effect in this area of the US - the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central competed to have well-stocked, fast, efficient, and luxurious trains that everyone could afford. Trolleys, shuttle lines, and even some buses created a network that could ferry a person from harrisburg ot Philadelphia to New York in three-four hours, depending on the locomotive.

The reason for the decline of this excellent system was one world - automobile. The cars put the railroads out of business because at the time, people did not have to wait for a train. But then came the problem with congested roads, insurance, and now petrol. Once again, we find that the railroad could be resurrected.

As an historical noite - the Pennsy and NYC merged to form the Penn-Central which was then made Conrail - all passanger services became the Federally run AMTRAK, which I shudder to think bares any resemblence to the glorious hey-dey of railroads in this country.

[Sejah Haversh]

The problem with banning vehicles is that only sometimes do I need that capacity to haul things in. Other times it's just me. I drove from Tacoma to Costa Mesa, which is south of L.A. and back this summer. I had a full load then, but don't always have one.

But, when I don't have a full load, what do I do? Take my Explorer to the car library and check out a Chevy Aveo or a Toyota Prius? Can I check out a flatbed when I need it? What if I wanted a convertible for the weekends, an SUV to haul people in once a week, a small car for a daily driver, and a cargo van every other week to haul a lot of stuff? There is no magical car library that you can just get what vehicles you need out of. Here in capitalist America, we by one car, usually, and have to make it work for whatever we do. I have a need to move people and things on occasion, and that amount of people and things is greater than a sedan can handle. So, for that occasional need, I bought an SUV. Don't go talking about genuine need, because you have no idea what other people's needs are. You are making presumptions when you say that some people only use it to haul them selves and baby. Many business pros that use one as their daily driver sometimes have to take high-profile clients places, and instead of renting a limo, they use their own, luxurious and roomy vehicle.

And, on train systems. Shut up.

The use of rail systems to move PRODUCT is faaaar greater than the use of them to move people. The American rail system was designed from the get-go to move supplies to places that needed them. The fact that there are people carriers was a secondary thing, but really, it's to get a whole lot of goods to somewhere far away. A train can carry more, usually faster than a semi truck can. The drawback is that it can't go ANYWHERE, but just on its tracks. Talk to a train captain, or a train route scheduler. You'd learn that the US rail system has grown to such a commercial goods shipping extent that passenger trains are the sever minority, and to try anf re-work the structure of what trains carry goods and what carry people would result in product beign shipped slower, and you paying higher prices because the product you want can't get to where it needs to go as often because now people are occupying the rails instead of cargo trains.

To try and give the US a rail system like Europe has is ludicrous, and would be an incredible waste of money in many areas. Yes, public transit needs to be improved, but that means you have to actually support the levees and bills that give public transit more money. O noes! More tax on the stuff I buy? Noooo! But I want magical super-efficient public transit that I'll B&M about but darn if I'm going to be the one paying for it.

So, really, think about the entire problem before offering such closed-minded solutions. There is no magical car library to check cars otu of, and never will be. I love my car, it's MINE, and I won't give it up. The US rail system is for cargo far more than it is for people, and in many places, the cost of public transit is far more expensive than a system could be maintained on in the long run for the services it would need to offer. People used to be able to trains on the East coast a lot back in the day, but then again, people also used to have to take boats across the Pacific. We have planes now that can get you there faster, and cheaper. The car took place of the train for the same reason. New technology vs. old.

Yes, we got dependant on the car. But that didn't happen overnight, nor will the solution. Many factors must work together before a real solution can be found. Simply banning something, or saying "overhaul this" isn't going to work. Ever,

[Telan Desaria]

I am not saying that there is a mahical library of sorts - that is ludicrous. However the selfish needs of one person cannot be allowed to override the good of the whole. Should you SUV be traded in or confiscated -yes if it is under used. If you are using it maybe once or twice out of the entire year for its given capacity, then yes, it should be removed from you and a more suitable vehcile put in its place. On the times when you do need to haul something then you can rent a vehicle.

On the subject of rails - your anger need not be directed at me -instead of denouncing my ideas perhaps you could say nice try and propose a better one. I read your reply twice and I saw no alternative solution.

Look at germany - do a study of the Franco-Prussian War or World War I - the railroad system was tightly controlled and made a science in and of itself. The same could be done here so that passanger as well as commcerical trains copuld run frequently and on-time. Technology improves of that there is no question - these are only ideas and opinions. I challange you to create one better or an adaptation of an existing idea rather than being obtuse and short sighted.

You will pardon me for ignoring and honestly loathing capitalist extravagences. There are times when the needs of one person must be subordinated to the needs of the community. If you are removed from your vehicle and given a more economical one and allowed to rent one when you need it then I can see no detriment.

[Sejah Haversh]

Size of Germany vs. Size of USA. NO COMPARISON! And, look at the time at which the German rail system was being re-built: the same time as the automobile was really growing in popularity. Then the railways were designed with different needs in mind. Ours have been here in some places for a heck of a lot longer, and have to go through distances that would stretch across all of Europe, not one tiny country.

Again, look the population densities in both countries and come back at me in with that argument.

And, since when does anybody tell me what to drive? I own it, I'll darn well drive it. And, who is to determine my drving needs but me? Not you, that's for darn well sure. If you really want to be concerned with what we drive, give everyone motorcycles and watch all hell break loose.

Yeah, I'd like better mileage and to pay less at the pump, but I'm a realist who understand what the rules of economy are in the country he has chosen to live in. You can hate it all you want, and moan all you want about how much you hate it, but I'm still going to throw realistic economy that is flat out common sense in country this size with such varying population needs and densities in your face.

Who would pay for my new vehicle if mine would be deemed unfit? Who decides what options I want? What next, someone will decide what books I read, and the televison channels I watch? Why not program everyone to do a certain job. Yes, let's make a utopian society where everyone's needs are dictated and supervised by someone else who knows better. We can all be average, and strive for the most common demoninator. Harrison Burgeron forever!

Call it an extravagance, but so are expensive pants and trendy MP3 players. But, those are bought by those who have the money to afford them, and someone worked hard for that money. I work hard for the money spent to buy my Explorer, and the money that goes to feed and insure it. I'm going to enjoy what I bought from my hard labor. I worked, so I get. That's not capitalism, that's common sense.

[Telan Desaria]

Can someone else determine your needs - yes. Should they - not in everything, but there are times what you want is not what you need and a greater authority must decide that for you.

Is the US a massive place - of course, there is no argument there. But again you have proposed no alternative solution. I welcome an arguement but let us not tread the same ground twice.

As far as population densities, I agree. Thusly, the living area of the US needs to be lessened. Those that live in suburbia need to be relocated to larger towers and buildings and then that land can itself be rebuilt into an extension of the city. A decline of urbania is the problem, as is the growth of suburbia. People need to be relocated from single homes that occupy a small space and a large yard to a more utilitarian structure where in that same space construction can go up and not out.

I am not saying that all people should be crowded into cities and the rest diverted to farmlands, but I am saying that there currently exists a great portion of the country people too spread out to make mass transit work -a point you yourself made. Suburbia can be allowed to remain but not in the form it currently takes. A much smaller portion should exist and the city proper should be expanded to fill said needs of said people.

My solution may be unpopular but it is logical and practical. Move twety people from twenty indepndent lots into one lot containing an apartment tower with twenty floors.

My point has already been made - I am not sayig that all societal frivolities should be banned, but when those frivolities affect the very lives of the people, then those actions must be tightly controlled.

As for my plan - would your automobile be confiscated - yes, but the manufacturer who would then replace it with a more efficient automobile.


I do not have all the answers I am trying to propose a solution. Again, I ask you - come up with one of your own instead of decrying mine.

[Sejah Haversh]

So you would make me a surf instead of a landowning noble?

Your idea is not only unpopular, it's inane. If I can keep up a house and a yard where my dogs and kids can play freely, then I will have it. I have no desire to live in a city choked with smog and my views of the world God made obstructed with other towers and being constantly in fear of having my music turned up too loud, or the upstairs people who stomp on their floors.

No, I will will live in a house, on my own lot, where I can be free to live as I please. Call it wasteful, but it's been the dream of most every person on earth to have a little bit of land to call their own and to live freely on it. A man's home is his castle, and even in precious Germany you see castles, and homes on plots of land and those seem to do just fine with your exulted transit system, now don't they?

While I might not propose an alternative solution, I do try and speak the voice of reason. My only greater authority is God. I respect the law, and my elected leaders, but ultimately he controls it all, and if anyone, he'll tell me where to live and what to drive. When a man believes himself superior to another, then all is lost.

Yeah, I want cars to get better mileage, I want biodiesel and corn oil fuels to be used, and those are in thr works. We are seeing a shift to hybrid vehicles, and seeing a shift to a demand for better transit. But things do not move at the speed of ideas, things move at the speed of mankind, which can take a very long time to correct problems and accept new ideas. I designed an electric sports car that had 600 horsepower and utilized Harvard's New Solar technology. I do understand fuel systems, and energy systems, and what can be adapted. I work in a car shop, and know just what cars consume and output. I also know the deep-rooted love for cars that most people, not just Americans, have for their cars. It's a symbol of freedom, as is that house in the suburbs where you can live in peaceful harmony with, and yet seclusion from your neighbors at the same time.

Go alternative fuels, go better public transit systems, but nay on making people into units and moving them to more efficient masses for the sake of beinf efficient. If you want that, build the Matrix. There's your model of efficiency. Heck, they don't even need to travel, there, you just lay in a tube.

And, again, who would pay for my new car? The manufacturer would not be liable, oh heck no. They are in the business of selling cars, not buying them back. Who would be to say that someone with a brand new Mercedes and someone with an old beater Oldsmobile that get the same mileage would then be forced to use the same new car. Sure, the owner of the Olds would be happy, but wouldn't you be pissed off if someone took your nice car you worked hard for and replaced it with something standard? Where's the personality? Where's the individuality? It's gone. We're surfs when that happens. Surfs to some great official who thinks they know better than we do.

Gah, enough of this. My point all along is that I drive a car you object to, and I love it, and I am willing to pay for the gas to fuel it, even if it is pricey.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Originally posted by Sejah Haversh
The problem with banning vehicles is that only sometimes do I need that capacity to haul things in. Other times it's just me. I drove from Tacoma to Costa Mesa, which is south of L.A. and back this summer. I had a full load then, but don't always have one.

But, when I don't have a full load, what do I do? Take my Explorer to the car library and check out a Chevy Aveo or a Toyota Prius? Can I check out a flatbed when I need it? What if I wanted a convertible for the weekends, an SUV to haul people in once a week, a small car for a daily driver, and a cargo van every other week to haul a lot of stuff? There is no magical car library that you can just get what vehicles you need out of. Here in capitalist America, we by one car, usually, and have to make it work for whatever we do. I have a need to move people and things on occasion, and that amount of people and things is greater than a sedan can handle. So, for that occasional need, I bought an SUV. Don't go talking about genuine need, because you have no idea what other people's needs are. You are making presumptions when you say that some people only use it to haul them selves and baby. Many business pros that use one as their daily driver sometimes have to take high-profile clients places, and instead of renting a limo, they use their own, luxurious and roomy vehicle.

And, on train systems. Shut up.

The use of rail systems to move PRODUCT is faaaar greater than the use of them to move people. The American rail system was designed from the get-go to move supplies to places that needed them. The fact that there are people carriers was a secondary thing, but really, it's to get a whole lot of goods to somewhere far away. A train can carry more, usually faster than a semi truck can. The drawback is that it can't go ANYWHERE, but just on its tracks. Talk to a train captain, or a train route scheduler. You'd learn that the US rail system has grown to such a commercial goods shipping extent that passenger trains are the sever minority, and to try anf re-work the structure of what trains carry goods and what carry people would result in product beign shipped slower, and you paying higher prices because the product you want can't get to where it needs to go as often because now people are occupying the rails instead of cargo trains.

To try and give the US a rail system like Europe has is ludicrous, and would be an incredible waste of money in many areas. Yes, public transit needs to be improved, but that means you have to actually support the levees and bills that give public transit more money. O noes! More tax on the stuff I buy? Noooo! But I want magical super-efficient public transit that I'll B&M about but darn if I'm going to be the one paying for it.

So, really, think about the entire problem before offering such closed-minded solutions. There is no magical car library to check cars otu of, and never will be. I love my car, it's MINE, and I won't give it up. The US rail system is for cargo far more than it is for people, and in many places, the cost of public transit is far more expensive than a system could be maintained on in the long run for the services it would need to offer. People used to be able to trains on the East coast a lot back in the day, but then again, people also used to have to take boats across the Pacific. We have planes now that can get you there faster, and cheaper. The car took place of the train for the same reason. New technology vs. old.

Yes, we got dependant on the car. But that didn't happen overnight, nor will the solution. Many factors must work together before a real solution can be found. Simply banning something, or saying "overhaul this" isn't going to work. Ever,


I would actually pay for the taxes if we got a better system of public transportation, and I would give up my car gladly. If I lived in a major city like Washington, New York etc, that had good public transportation I wouldn't drive.

[Hera]

With the hike in gas prices, the news profiled this old guy in Canada here, who converted his diesel truck to run on vegetable oil. It showed him picking big containers of the stuff that restaurants have to routinely dispose of (it is usually the oil used in the deep fryers and has to be disposed of properly - carted away). They said it burns cleaner than petrol and is a far better way of disposing of the stuff.

They said it would cost about $1500 to convert a diesel fuel engine to vegetable oil. I was quite imressed with this old guy driving his camper around the place. It was noisy though, IIRC. Louder than the diesels. Which are loud.

As for trains, Im a big fan of trains. I think they are underused in major cities. Yes, they cost money to be built. But so do all the road widening and bridge building that gets done to accommodate the ever increasing traffic bottlenecks around.

In Perth, W.Australia where I am originally from, you can get from any suburb to the city core on a train and it usually takes about 30 mins. Admittedly, Perth is a smaller city in comparison to most, I think about 2 mil ppl now, not sure - I havent lived there for many years. Where I live now, in Canada, I have to take 3 buses AND a train to get from my suburb into the city. A train service would be so welcome.


In Moscow, a city of 13mil ppl, there is a train every 30 seconds. Everyone travels in the metro. (The russian cars are crap and hard to get ). They are so efficient.

Like I said, I am a big fan of trains. Charge the taxes, collect the levies. Build the trains!

Edit: One site states Perth pop:1176542 (I dont think that incls the greater area, though. Perth was that small when I left 15yrs ago.) huh :/

Edit 2: Another site says 1.8 million. I guess my first est was correct. No one cares, I know. But I JUST HAD TO GET IT RIGHT.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

We pay the taxes stateside here in sunny Multnomah County Portland Oregon, and enjoy the services of an expansive mass transit "MAX" lightrail system that connects us from Gresham to past Hillsboro.

The only good thing that has come of this is that it allows the gangs to travel fast and cheaply from one end of town to the other. My neighborhood used to be a nice quiet community next to a country club/golfcourse. Well, it still is. Except that we had cars on our property broken into twice in a period of about three months. The MAX lines run by us, and at the other end of the block there is a station.

And, inspite of tons of buses (that don't look where they're going, i might add, which applies to MAX drivers too - we had one driver get off with a temporary suspension WITH PAY after he did not pay attention to his Stop light and ran into a very very expensive FIRE TRUCK, totalling it) and plans to spend milions MORE of our dollars on MAX trains, etc, we have daily car traffic problems that are getting worse and worse.

My sister and her family moved up to Oregon to 'get away from the California traffic' but it's here too. We have WAY too many cars on the roads inspite of an expensive and fairly efficient train system (Well, it doesn't go everywhere) and I don't see that changing just because gas prices have gone up. Mitch is right, we are dependent on the car, and I highly doubt spending gazillions of our tax dollars on expensive lightrail systems, or subway systems, is really going to change that over night.

Plus, raising taxes is just not a very popular idea, no matter where you're from. Unless you like taxes, I dunno, you might.

I'd rather my tax money was going to pay for more police on the streets to rid us of our rampant illegal immigrant (who also benefit from the cheap lightrail, I suppose it's their 'right,' just like we should pay to teach them better Spanish in our high schools) and meth house problems. Personally I think our Multnomah County officials are more interested in trying to create a sort of liberal 'Utopia' here in the NW, and less interested in what is actually the public good (or what the public wants).

So yeah, gas is higher than usual here in Oregon - we are paying about $2.79 a gallon now. But the immediate hike (price gouging in other parts of the nation to $5+ a gal) has more to do with panic (in my opinion) than a real shortage. Maybe now we'll get our oil drilling platforms in Alaska.

And no, I didn't read all of the above posts, but our minimum wage here is $7.50 an hour. We drive a Dodge Dakota ( or a Jeep when it's running, currently it's broken ) which I use when I travel around town. We're not putting many miles on it. Ty uses it to haul HUGE loads of stuff here and there. We also have a 2003 Pontiac Grand Prix, which Ty drives to and from work. As he drives to and from about 5-14 grocery stores a day, selling wine, it's imperative he has something with good gas milage. We get about 30 mpg in the Pontiac.

The only problem is that he was transferred about two hours south, and so he drives an extra four hours every day just to commute to work. His recent job uncertainty with his company being swallowed up by a larger one caused us not to move when we were planning to, so he's resigned to commuting for the forseeable future. I'm looking for work in the Portland area.

Oh and there aren't any trains to that part of the state. Before you ask.

And I personally have ridden on public transportation quite a bit and I hate it. Unreliable, hardly ever on time, and I usually end up sitting next to some crazy guy who wants me to be his magicians assistant. No thank you.

To many if not all Americans, public transportation will continue to be seen as a last resort to use 'if you have to.' Sure, it's there if we need it, but for right now we just want to complain about gas prices as we get on with our lives.

I suggest that's what we all do. After all, we still have lives to get on with - there are many people in this country right now who can't say the same thing.

[my opinion not of Sw-fans Staff or of anyone else]I won't even begin to roll my eyes on the 'well we pay $9 a gallon, and you don't hear us complaining!' That's great for you, really it is. I'm glad you're not complaining. Shut the hell up. We've all had this conversation here on sw-fans many times in the past, and no one likes a know-it-all. This issue is not one that 'we' are going to agree with 'you' about, and you know it, so why start the argument in the first place?

Ok that's it.[/opinion of myself, not the Staff]

[Telan Desaria]

Here here

[Ryla Relvinian]

And this thread is exactly why I ride public transit and a bike. The only gas I care about is the gas that grills my sweet, sweet dead cow flesh.

[Razielle Alastor]

I'm at work too much lately to do the reaseach myself, but not only am I seeing higher prices here ( $3.49 / gallon in WNC) but a ton of the stations here are out completely. So umm.. Is that just in my area or do we not have anymore gas?

I'm being honest guys, I don't know. So please nobody give me any crap.. LOL

[Telan Desaria]

A lot of stations are running out. I saw briefly on CN and N that they might ration it temporarily

[Ebon Dir]

In many ares of the country, though, gas is running out because people are panicking. Gasoline sales in my area have tripled this past week. Why? Because every moron out there is topping off his tank and filling up every container he has, somehow fearing that the world is ending.

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

Aye - I just learned a little while earlier that apparently Alabama is supposed to run out of gas by Monday. I really hope that's alot of panic talking, but I was a bit unnerved that I had to bypass three gas stations cause they were out, and only barely made it to the last one. Even then it was a thirty dollar limit, and they were out of regular.

[Morgan Evanar]

The gasoline situation here is more expensive than it was but normal now.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Its come down here slightly. Went up to 3.49 but came down the other day to 2.89. I think it went so high because people paniced.

[Sanis Prent]

No gas here below $3.00 here. If I see a sign advertising for anything below that, I don't even stop because I know full well that they won't have any stock left.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Gas hasn't started running out here that I know of, but we're pretty darn far away from the South. It's gone up in price, that's about it. Mostly hanging around 2.90 a gallon. At least it was this morning...

[Telan Desaria]

Here things have reached 3.29 per gallon and have not dropped.