Fallen Jedi, Grey Jadi/Shadow Jedi, and Dark Jedi

[Jackson Mcgraves]

Okay most of you are probably asking yourself why bring this subject up, well I have been playing allot of KOTOR and KOTOR 2 allot lately. From playing these's games I have come across some interesting stuff in there storyline. Some of what I got from it and what I'm going to discuss is my interpetation of what I found. It is not to be taken as pure fact.

To start off what is a fallen Jedi or Lost jedi. Well from what I got from the games and also from other sw sources they can be one of two things. Fallen Jedi can be those Jedi that are being tempted by the Darkside and have lost faith in the Jedi code. They can also be those Jedi that do not agree with certain aspects of the Jedi code and therefore are refered to as lost or fallen Jedi. Duku, Qui-gon, and Kyle Kantern are three great examples of lost or fallen Jedi. However Duku did fall to the darkside unlike the other two who remained Jedi that just didn't follow the normal code. Fallen and lost Jedi are more supseptable to being tainted and Turned to the darkside.

Now with GreyJedi/Shadow Jedi. I have no clue where the term Shadow Jedi came from because anyone who has ever explained them to me they are in fact Grey Jedi. Grey Jedi are those who use both sides to gain what they want. Now however they do not nessisarily use bothsides of the force as many people think. No Grey Jedi are those that where once Jedi then Fell to the darkside. Now the idea of a Grey Jedi is one that does not like the force but is a force user. They do not seek to find Balance in the force but rather seek to destroy the force. Most grey Jedi do not even use the force even though they can, they do how ever use other force users through manipulation to gain there advantages. They try to tip the Balance and give more power to one side then the other to destroy the force. Most of this information came from KOTOR 2 in reference to Darth Tera's story line. She was a grey Jedi seeking to destroy the force.

Now to end this we will move onto Dark Jedi and what they are according to KOTOR. According to KOTOR from what I have gotten Dark Jedi are those sith that do not follow the normal sith code. They are much like the fallen Jedi are to the Jedi but on the darkside scale. Most Dark jedi came about because of the rule of Bane (the rule of two). The Dark jedi where those sith that did not want to follow that rule. There where Dark jedi before bane's rule but they became more promonent afterwords. Now most Dark Jedi according to KOTOR do allie themselves with sith to try and achieve what they want. What also can beconsidered dark Jedi are those followers of Palpatine that where also taught in the force like the inquisters and the emperor's hands.

I will leave this open for discussion perhaps it will bring some new ideas to the table. :)

[Lamar Starworth]

Actually I've brought that concept into my own character. I really can't ever see Lamar turn into a "traditional" Jedi. The code holds a very "monk" like mentality and with the strains of his lifestyle, past and conflictive mind state there is very little room for complete peace within self even with the decent amount of training from a great Jedi Master. I think it's plausible that he could actually turn out to be a "traditional" Jedi in the sense in the future, but Im expecting "Lost/Fallen" or "Grey".

There is also room for being a Dark Jedi as well, especially with his alligence being with the Empire. Even at the private ranks, as a normal patron of the Galaxy you hear the Rebel Propoganda so you get the chance to decide is the Empire really as horrid or are the Rebels lying.

[Jason Dreggs]

well Grey/shadow are not accepted here at swfans because most think they play bothsides of the game and keep themselves well Balanced. In truth most of the time Grey jedi forsake the force completely and try to munipulate other force users to help them tip the Balance and try and destroy the force completely.

[Dasquian Belargic]

I've always thought Shadow Jedi were different to Grey Jedi.

At least, the impression I've gotten is that Grey Jedi are more concerned with serving the Force rather than the Jedi code, etc. They are interested in balance. This doesn't necessarily mean that they will use the Darkside (because that is against the rules here), but rather that they are less rigid. Here's something I found online, with regards to this interpretation...


A GREY JEDI however, primarily serves the Force.

A Grey Jedi is more interested in balance, just like the Force.

A Grey Jedi does not eschew using 'Dark' powers to achieve the greater good. In fact, a Grey Jedi might not even see things in terms of Light or Dark, though it's hard to imagine having that mindset in the midst of the Jedi Temple. (Difficult, but not impossible.)

To a Grey Jedi, the Republic, and the Jedi Council, are secondary to serving the Force.

When it comes down to either doing the bidding of the Force, or doing the bidding of the Council, there is no question-- "I shall do what I must" to serve the Force, even if it means going against what the Council wishes, even if it means using the Dark Side, even if it means going to extremes that would otherwise be considered inappropriate for a Jedi.

Being Grey is, perhaps, a reversion to a previous state of things. According to the sources we have, the Jedi were once an order of philosophical monks. Thus they initially devoted their lives entirely to the study of the Force, heeding the Force before anything else. Whereas the Jedi of late Republic times had become mired in politics. Naturally, that created an atmosphere where serving the Force was of secondary importance to the duties of keeping the peace and meting out justice-- serving the Republic.

It's not the same thing as turning one's back on the teaching (as with the Sith) nor blind obedience to its interpretations (as with the Jedi). The Grey find themselves instead questioning the right of other beings to dictate the will of the Force for them.

One might even call the Grey a Reformist movement.

As I said, they couldn't use both 'sides' of the Force here, but they could easily be more concerned with the will of the Force than bringing peace and so on. Kreia is an excellent example of this. Playing KOTOR2, she discourages you from trying to be the hero, trying to interfere in other peoples business, whether by harming or helping tem. Whatever happens does so because of the will of the Force. If the Force dictactes that you should do something, then do it - otherwise, don't feel an obligation to be a knight in shining armor.

Also, AFAIK, Grey Jedi have never been disallowed here. Shadow Jedi were, because of god-moding, but Grey Jedi were never really played before now. Since all Jedi were trained at GJO, there was really no one acting as a rogue Jedi in that way.

[Jackson Mcgraves]

Like I said that was my interpitation of the game. I actually don't know what it is people consider a shadow Jedi. Mainly because I never looked into it that much since they where outlawed here.

From what i heard from outside sources is they are allot like grey Jedi or at least thats what I got from the people that gave me the info. That is why I lotted the two together if I'm wrong I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.

As for Kreia she sought to destroy the force hence why I stated That grey Jedi seek to destroy it. Like I said my own interpitation of the game not fact.

[Tear]

This is the way I've always thought of things when it came to the different types of Jedi.


Jedi - Those being taught and brought up by the Jedi Council. Having the code to rely on and the monk mentality as stated before. Peace keepers of the galaxy and all that. I think everyone knows what a Jedi is :p

Sith - The opposite of a Jedi but they have ideals and philosophies like the Jedi only in the opposite spectrum.

Gray Jedi - I always took the Jedi in the last part to refer to the user as being able to use the force not to mean necessarily they had been Jedi in the first place. (but im sure they could have) I've always seen it as someone who doesnt believe in the idealogies of either the Jedi or the Sith but someone who simply uses the force because they can. Using the most appropriate tool for the job so to speak.

Biggest example being Kyle Katarn he used the force on a need basis. Whatever ability he needed at the time he used. I think the biggest problem with Gray Jedi is their tendency to fall the the darkside simply because its easy to become corrupted by power. Without any moral code to hold you in check you would probably abuse the force to your advantage. Unless you had strong personal ideals to keep you from going to the Dark side.

When I had originally created Tear I had made him a Gray Jedi. (This was in my personal writing I dont think i've posted it anywhere) but because of his bad temper and aggressive nature it was only natural for him to fall to the Darkside.

This is just the way ive always thought about it:rolleyes

[Figrin D'an]

If you define "Grey Jedi" as one dedicated to serving the Force itself and the "balance" that it must sustain, then it is very easily identifiable in canon material. Qui-Gon Jinn would have been a "grey Jedi" under this definition. He allowed himself to be guided by the will of the Force first and foremost, even if it conflicted with the mandate of the Council or the Jedi Code.


A lot of this goes back to the whole concept of "balance" within the Force. Needless to say, there is a lot of disagreement, even here at this board, as to what this "balance" was meant to be, and how The Chosen One was to bring it about. Depending upon how one defines it dictates how terms like "Grey Jedi", "Shadow Jedi", etc, are to be defined.

Shadow Jedi as most people like to define them are a big no-no in this RP realm though.

[Alexis Biede]

I have some questions and a comment about this subject.

Comment:

We have had someone claim to be a Grey jedi before on the boards. Kyle Krogen.

Questions:

What would someone be if they trained themselves in the ways of the force but they did not know the Sith or the Jedi code and werent really leaning to either side of the force?

and

What would someone be if they were trained by a jedi but this said jedi died before training was complete and thus the student has to continue their training on their own and because of it, they tend to be a bit rebelious to the full jedi code because of not fully knowing it?

[Dasquian Belargic]

We have had someone claim to be a Grey jedi before on the boards. Kyle Krogen.

This is just since the reset, as far as I am aware - and he's not the only one. Like I said, Grey Jedi haven't been around until recently.


What would someone be if they trained themselves in the ways of the force but they did not know the Sith or the Jedi code and werent really leaning to either side of the force?

and

What would someone be if they were trained by a jedi but this said jedi died before training was complete and thus the student has to continue their training on their own and because of it, they tend to be a bit rebelious to the full jedi code because of not fully knowing it?

First one - I think it's possible to be a Jedi without knowing the code or following it, as we've said with regards to the Grey Jedi. As for training yourself without leaning towards either side of the Force... this is tough. In the video games, there have been Jedi who are capable of drawing upon the power of both sides but I think that here at SWfans, we have come to the conclusion that it is not possible to simply sit on the fence when it comes to using the Force - because using either 'side' requires the user to tap into such conflicting emotions and states of mind.

I might be wrong, but I don’t think it’s possible to learn how to *use* the Force to a more than basic degree without Jedi/Sith training. Star Wars canon features characters who have a sixth sense or quick reflexes because of their affinity with the Force, but I think that for them to have anything more than this very simplest of abilities, they would have to pick a side.

Second one - a Jedi? What kind of Jedi depends entirely on how they choose to use/serve the Force.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Shadow Jedi were 'banned' because the people who wanted to RP as Shadow Jedi wouldn't admit that a Shadow Jedi is basically a darksider. As Dasq said, it was determined here that it is not possible to sit on the fence when it comes to the Force. You either are light side, or dark side. Grey Jedi would be, I think, Light siders, even if they do not necessarily hold to the Jedi Code. Figrin is right - Qui Gon would have been a Grey Jedi if we use this definition.

So a Grey Jedi is a lightsider who does not follow the Jedi Code, and a dark Jedi would be a darksider that doesn't hold to the Sith code?

[Blade Bacquin]

well Kreia wasn't considered to be a darksider or a lightsider but she was considered to be a grey Jedi. She had followed the jedi code then fell to the darkside and then forsaked the sith code as well. most Jedi as far as I know that do not follow the Jedi code where considered fallen or lost.

[Droo]

Being neither in favour of or against Shadow Jedi, I simply saw them as Force users who could never master any techniques, advanced or basic, in either the Dark or Light end of the Force Spectrum.

If a Jedi Master had 100 Force Points in the Light Side of the Force and a Dark Jedi Master had the same but in the Dark Side of the Force. A Shadow Jedi Master would have the same number of Force points but would have to divide these points evenly in Dark and Light pools of skills. This would mean they would have some Dark and Lightside powers but would be nothing more than moderately capable with any of them, even at master status.

That is why I have never cared either way about Shadow Jedi; I personally think you can look too much into things such as if you use the Dark Side once then game over: your character is forever of the Dark Side because those are the rules. Nonsense. The overriding rule here has always been that of common sense. I know I and many other people could roleplay Shadow Jedi with perfect efficiency. It's not hard or complicated unless we choose to make it so with endless theoretical debate about Jedi/Sith dogma which serves only to pollute and convolute the aesthetic simplicity of pure character-driven roleplaying.

[Dasquian Belargic]

Originally posted by Lilaena De'Ville
So a Grey Jedi is a lightsider who does not follow the Jedi Code, and a dark Jedi would be a darksider that doesn't hold to the Sith code?

That's the way I would see it working best here. As Blade says, however, Kreia / Darth Treya was a Grey Jedi but was capable of using both sides of the Force. Then again, quite a few Force users in the KOTOR games were capable of using both sides - in a similar way to how Droo described. Jolee Bindo was a Grey Jedi, in that he was Force neutral, but he was also a good person. I suppose they're the two extremes of Grey Jedi - Kreia as the more sinister manipulator, and Jolee as the lone hermit.

[Mandy with an I]

I've always thought of the Force "basics" as being pretty neutral, personally. I mean, if someone is a Force-adept, but isn't on one side of the fence or another, they can still do the very basic things that all Force Adepts can do, right?

Realistically, if you were a "self-taught" Force-user, you wouldn't be that powerful, and most of your abilities would be limited to the basics (unless you take the time to rp out learning them) like TK and maybe telepathy or force-boosting. Of course, your characters background would eventually come into play and that would decide what "side" of the Force you were manipulating.

I think the definition LD said is great for describing what kind of Jedi we have on Fans. Not everyone can play a perfect Jedi or Sith without making it into a farce. I'd rather see characters that have some realistic human quailities than the stereotypical Jedi/Sith/whatever. [/two cents]

[Y'roth Helghast]

I think that most of the answers to this debate can be found in the last thread concerning this topic. Not to be rude or anything, just that the indepth posts already existing contain the answers to this dilemma I believe.