The value of English skills

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

In discussing this with others, I have become genuinely curious as to what people think of the importance of good English skills. So, I thought I'd post up a survey of sorts on the subject.



1) Do you think that English skills (ie - grammar, punctuation, correct word usage, etc) are important in today's world? Or do you think that they have no importance at all?

Why?



2)Even if Star Wars Roleplaying is just a game, would you rather write interesting, descriptive posts, or just "get your point across" with the minimum amount of words and no regard to spelling errors, sporadic punctuation, and the like?

Also, which of these two types of posts would you rather spend your time reading?

[Darth McBain]

I'm probably in the minority, but I value English skills and think they're very important in getting your point across. I do think that grammar, punctuation and the like are very important and should be used. Not that I always follow my own advice, but I do think they're important. I think part of it is that I see it as laziness in typing. People would rather take half a second to write " :) " than to take 15 seconds to articulate a thought into a sentence. To me, I'd rather think through a response and have something to add to the conversation instead of just throwing in an emoticon.

As for question 2, I'm probably not too qualified to answer as I don't do roleplaying, but I personally don't like posts that don't really contribute and consist of "ROTFLMAO" or " :) " To me, they're basically meaningless and don't add much into the conversation.

The English language is interesting in that it is growing every day with new words, such as pwned... :rolleyes It will continue to do so, and I don't think there's any way it will stop, but I do think that an effort should be made to adhere to some of the general rules that make up the language...

Interesting question...

[Khendon Sevon]

[DANGER! Opinion!]

1) I believe that a firm understanding of the English language is required for the transmission of ideas and concepts. This applies not only to “hardcopy” medias (Newspapers, magazines, etc) but to digital information as well.

Proper punctuation and grammar show a level of understanding and serve to aid in the readability of a piece. Additionally, an understanding of word definitions and how to choose the right word can create flow (“varying the length” and “symptom word revision” can also help). Some understanding of poetic mechanics aids when designing artistic writings.

If proper English weren’t important then we wouldn’t need editors. There is a clear demand for intelligent and diligent editors. As such, I believe it’s safe to say English skills are of significant worth.

2) Books are just for entertainment. Why do they require proper English and interesting descriptions mingled with gripping stories?

Games are no different from any other form of entertainment. Just because the average SWF poster isn’t a professional writer/game designer doesn’t mean he or she shouldn’t try his or her damnedest to achieve a level of quality control.

However, I don’t think that justifies writing a post that runs around the events, is overly bombastic, or long and drawn out. That’s not writing well. In my opinion, a good writer (this is true of books, as well) utilizes images in a manner that helps portray the distilled meaning of the work. Basically, the writer has to balance activity/action with vividness/description.

I’d rather spend my time reading a post that’s well written, intelligent, and of artistic merit. If a post consists of two lines and contains only the fundamental motions of the “game” then I believe it is a complete and total failure.

A post must induce an emotional response—as must all art! It’s as simple as that.

[/opinion]

[Booster]

I feel there are two kinds of RPers- Those who do things for themselves, and those who do things for the audience. If you are RPing for personal enjoyment, you may find it too stressful to go back and check your post for spelling, grammer, punctuation or conceptual errors- even with the availability of the Edit function nowerdays. If you are doing it for an audience, then yes, it is art, and spelling affects how it is viewed. For example, calling a plasma weapon a Plazma Cannon, IMO, gives it a stronger effect, even though it isn't a correct spelling.

Also, using smilies during RP is a bad sign.

[Khendon Sevon]

Every person is entitled to RP the way he or she wishes. That’s that person’s choice. However, when that person is involved with interactions between other players it changes the dynamics from a thread that will be completely ignore to one that infringes on others sentiments and writing trends.

Responding to a thread that isn’t interesting and fun to read defeats the entire purpose of “playing” this “game” (If you view it as a game).

Fundamentally, there is no harm from attempting to write the best post you can. Why not take a few moments and proofread? If time is an issue, save a copy of the file and post it later. Take your time. This isn’t a speed game (if it is I’m completely sorry for not having bought the official time keeping clock, do they sell one with an Imperial theme?).


Originally posted by Booster
For example, calling a plasma weapon a Plazma Cannon, IMO, gives it a stronger effect, even though it isn't a correct spelling.


How does using improper English give it a stronger effect? As far as I can tell it might add comedy. That’s where it ends. The written word has rules that often do not apply to “vernacular” or the spoken word (In that they're allowed to slide so far as informal speaking goes). It is important to follow these rules to preserve the integrity of the message.

Changing plasma to plazma is absurd and makes no sense. In fact, it is detractive to the author and implies a lack of caring for the RP. It simply shows no regard or seriousness for the thread and those involved.

[Morgan Evanar]

You have to know the rules to break them for the most effect. I sometimes write fragments instead of complete sentences, because the fragment was a more effective communicator than a complete sentence. However, it's a seldom used tool. For it to work correctly, it must be a seldom used tool. Conversely, misspelling for effect is not effective except in the rarest of cases. It makes someone look foolish.

Grammar is generally important because a missed period or comma can completely change either/or/both the character and meaning of the sentence. I'm somewhat more tolerant of spelling. Occasionally I misspell things myself, and we're not all perfect. If I see two or three minorly misspelled words in a 5-7 sentence paragraph I'm not going to string you up for it.

They're both important because text is pretty much our only medium of communication, unless we have a speed artist who responds in comic book format to every post. That would be cool but there doesn't seem to be one here!

Constant, uncorrected mistakes make it more difficult to both understand the post and it diminishes the work of the poster.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

English skills are important. Grammar, spelling, punctuation - all are very important.

In an RP, it is important to use correct grammar, spelling and punctuation, if only for the reason that it's a good habit to be in. You wouldn't write a memo to your boss with fifteen spelling mistakes in it, would you? Your posts should reflect that you put at least a little thought into them.

It doesn't matter if your post if a sentance, or fifteen paragraphs, if I can't understand it because it's one big run on sentance with no punctuation at all, I'm not going to read it.

[Drin Kizael]

Originally posted by s'Ilancy
1) Do you think that English skills (ie - grammar, punctuation, correct word usage, etc) are important in today's world? Or do you think that they have no importance at all?

Yes. One of the biggest factors to a person's success is how they project themselves. First impressions are usually based on how well a person communicates. Whether it's in the business world or the creative world, nothing will tank a proposal faster than a bunch of typos and bad grammar.



2)Even if Star Wars Roleplaying is just a game, would you rather write interesting, descriptive posts, or just "get your point across" ...


One thing I respect about many writers is their ability to get a point across in as few words as possible. Brevity is the soul of wit.

I do my best to break my stories down into more readable bites. You don't have to write a novel to get move a story forward. And I'm all about the story.



... with the minimum amount of words and no regard to spelling errors, sporadic punctuation, and the like?


Well no of course not. No problem with being short and to the point. But at least make it worth reading.



Also, which of these two types of posts would you rather spend your time reading?[/b]

Long winded and boring = bad.
Long, but detailed and well written = good.

Short and sloppy = pointless
Short and understandable = good storytelling

[andy_3000_ca]

Too be frank, I tend to ignore posts that lack proper sentence structure, grammar and punctuation. Minor errors are tolerable, but when a sentence looks like someone took a blender to it, that is crossing the line from tolerable to not worth my time. The only time I read them is when I need to, which sadly is far too often.

When it comes to Roleplaying, I find this too be even more important, as replying to an action requires at least a basic understanding of what the other person is trying to do. If you spell something wrong, or forget punctuation, then the interpretation is changed and arguments stem. It makes a Gamemaster's job that much more difficult, I find. (~sighs, knowing this feeling all too well~)

Outside of the realm of Forum posting, language skills - regardless of the language involved(though I imagine for a good number of people involved in this discussion, English is the medium of choice) - are vital to your survival. Literacy is a key skill and without it, you will not progress past minimum wage burger flipping at McDonald's and cart pushing at Wal-Mart.

That said, lacking literacy skills, makes you look like a fool. If you wrote a professional document to an employer, that looked like this:

- - -

Hey john,

whasup dud I gots those filz u wantd put in the drwers.

cya l8r jim

- - -

What do you honestly think the employer is going to do? I would can you right there and then. That said, if the resume I received for that person looked like that I would chuckle too myself and toss it.

Literacy is important. Period.

Now. ~crawls back to his cave~

[Vendetta]

Originally posted by andy_3000_ca

That said, lacking literacy skills, makes you look like a fool. If you wrote a professional document to an employer, that looked like this:

- - -

Hey john,

whasup dud I gots those filz u wantd put in the drwers.

cya l8r jim

- - -

What do you honestly think the employer is going to do? I would can you right there and then. That said, if the resume I received for that person looked like that I would chuckle too myself and toss it.


Haha. I found that very enjoyable.

[Rognan Dar]

English skills are important. Period. If you go about life talking and writing like the example Andy wrote, then it shows many things about you. No, I'm not just talking about the slang and stuff, that is fine, as long as its used correctly. But with writing it shows that you really dony care what someone else might think of it or if someone else can even read it. It seems lazy and unthoughtful. I know with instant messanger chats and gaming online that quick, easy stuff is very common. And sometimes I dont mind that. But I do see it and think that: why not just take the extra second to write out the real word or meaning. With all the abbreviations out there, I find it hard to understand what people are saying.

I do enjoy a well writen out RP. I like them more because I can hardly do it. I think that English skills in life should be no different then they are anywhere else, the Forum included. Now, I know I'm not the best at spelling, grammer, or punctuation. In fact, I'm just bad at it. But I try and I want to do better. I see some of the newer people to writing and I see that I used to be like that when I got here. I've looked back at a few of my first posts and see how really bad they were.

All in all I would rather a longer post with details and build and story then just trying to get your point across. I story is not just about the point but the path, the journey it takes to get to that point. Otherwise, there would be no meaning or purpose to write things out well.

[Dasquian Belargic]

I think spelling, grammar and so on are all very important. I don’t know if it’s just because I am an English Lit nerd, or because my teachers have always hammered home how crucial this sort of thing is (since most exam papers a lot 6 marks for it), but I find bad spelling incredibly cringe worthy.


In an RP, it is important to use correct grammar, spelling and punctuation, if only for the reason that it's a good habit to be in. You wouldn't write a memo to your boss with fifteen spelling mistakes in it, would you? Your posts should reflect that you put at least a little thought into them.

It doesn't matter if your post if a sentance, or fifteen paragraphs, if I can't understand it because it's one big run on sentance with no punctuation at all, I'm not going to read it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/tehwofl/emot-eng101.gif sentence ... :p sorry, sorry, anyway…

I agree with this. I know that RPing is only supposed to be a hobby, not a chore, but it’s really not that difficult to pop open a word processor to spell-check and format your posts. It makes life easier for the rest of us, and if nothing else it’s good practice for the times in life when you do need to have a good grasp of the English language.

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

Grammar skills, punctuation, spelling, all of that are important. I understand that it’s near impossible to have complete and perfect English skills, but I really do feel that every person should at least strive toward furthering their grasp of the written word, no matter what language they speak.


Originally posted by Booster
I feel there are two kinds of RPers- Those who do things for themselves, and those who do things for the audience. If you are RPing for personal enjoyment, you may find it too stressful to go back and check your post for spelling, grammer, punctuation or conceptual errors- even with the availability of the Edit function nowerdays. If you are doing it for an audience, then yes, it is art, and spelling affects how it is viewed. For example, calling a plasma weapon a Plazma Cannon, IMO, gives it a stronger effect, even though it isn't a correct spelling.

Also, using smilies during RP is a bad sign.

Very good point about there being two different kinds of Rpers, and I feel that we have both kinds here at Fans. And I do admit that yes, both don’t have perfect grammar, spelling, or punctuation skills, but the amount of errors is very minimal in a lot of their cases. I admit that I myself neglect to use the built-in spellchecker we have here, and so some of my posts have words that are missing a letter or there isn’t a period where there should be.

I do think though, that everyone RPs so that they can share their character’s stories; else there’d be no point to roleplaying on the internet. Some of the posters here are avid writers, and are constantly looking for ways to increase their writing skills; some are even in the tentative stages of writing books, so something like this has the added benefit of writing practice.

As far as the intentional misspelling of some words, I believe that going at it from the angle of using acronyms (thank you Khendon :D ) lends a more realistic attribute. Or at least, as realistic as we can possibly make Star Wars, heh. Oh those crazy lightsabres, eh McBain? ;)

The smilies thing I have mixed feelings about. In my opinion, there are really only two posters on this site who can pull off using smilies in their posts and having it actually work – Sorsha and Tirsa. I always liked reading Tirsa’s posts because she tended to add in little smilies that somehow just made the cute factor for Miss Blue skyrocket. For me, at least.



Drin, I’m in complete agreement with you. I consider myself to be a ‘middle of the road’ poster, in that my posts can range from long and descriptive to short and to the point (dictated by the situation, of course). But for the most part, a good majority of my posts are pretty much in the middle of the length spectrum. I like to create a picture in the reader’s head when I can, but I also know that for certain posts only the action is what counts. I’ve told her this many times before, but Sorsha’s style of writing – while very short – is a style that I could never pull off. Thing is though, I love it. It’s so to the point while maintaining the weight of the situation that she really doesn’t need a billion and one words to describe what’s going on. I hope that makes sense, since that’s really the best way I can describe it.

On the flip side, there are some of Jenny’s longer posts that I literally devour. She’s got such a knowledge of the language and how to use it, as well as the vocabulary to make her sentences flow together seamlessly that it’s always a joy to read her work.


Khendon and I were talking the other day, and I thought I’d share this with you:



Khendon: I didn't think of this as a relaxing, continuous story back then
Khendon: it was just a game
silancy: see, this is how I see the evolution of Fans - first we had the period of one-liners and godmoding to the Nth degree
silancy: then we graduated like some weird bang into more full-fledged writing. it was still a game back then, but now it had something it didn't have before; and that was depth
silancy: then began the longer process of development into something even bigger - storytelling
silancy: I really think we've reached the point where we - as members - seemlessly work together to achieve the most riveting and fun-filled adventures while still keeping that element of surprise and enjoyment
Khendon: the problem is: while SWF took leaps forward the rest of the internet stayed motionless
Khendon: the community evolved, but others didn't
silancy: yeah
Khendon: so, many new people are still stuck in the past
silancy: Fans has always been striving toward an unseen goal, IMO. Trying to better the experience of its' community and give them so much more than other SW RP sites have to offer

Mind you, that basic breakdown of Fans is taken from what I remember older members saying, so it could be off a little bit. Regardless, I see Fans as something of a unique site that offers so much more than a first, cursory glance would yield.


I’ve seen posters who have started out with atrocious writing skills, but over time they have gotten better; some by leaps and bounds. Of course, there are a few exceptions. I’m sure a lot of us remember the SMS text butchers from a while back. But, we’ve also gotten some great posters right off the bat – Mitch, Kale, Rhea – all three of them are fantastic writers with an ability to just suck you into their threads.

So yes, I do think English skills are important :)

[Dasquian Belargic]

I agree with what you said about Sorsha/Tirsa there, s'Il. I don't think you need to be verbose to get your point across. That's probably the distinction between role-playing and storytelling - the former being able to get your point across in the most concise way possible, and the latter trying to craft a much more detailed scenario. That's not to say, however, that short posts can't have incredible atmosphere to them. Again, using Sorsha as an example, I would say that her character is one of the most vivid here.

I think the fact that I want to some day get into novel-writing means that my posts tend to be on the longer side. Hell, even this post is needlessly long, really :p

[Nayala Palain]

I will be honest. I am a better speaker of the english language. Although I really suck at writting it. Its a learning block of mine. I do my best. 90% of the time, I wont notice something until later.

Nearly Days later.

But its also, nothing I can really do about it. Mainly cause if I don't see something, wrong in the first try. I dont bother with the spell check or anything else. But later when I re-read it, I notice all my issues and I tend to fix them.

[Jedieb]

Honestly, if it's not work related, I don't sweat it. When I post I refuse to spell check or diagram my sentences. It's a casual conversation. If I don't catch my mistake while I'm typing it then I don't pay attention to it. I'll find mistakes in posts days after I write them and basically shrug my shoulders.

[Cat Terrist]

Eif peeple r wurried bi mi speling, they can sod uff. i hate speling nazeis

[Yog]

I don't care so much about the odd spelling/grammar mistake here and there. I do think the writer should put in an effort to write correctly though. If your posts are full with errors, up to a level it becomes distractive, annoying or difficult to read, then yes, you should definitely run a spellchecker.

Personally, I wont put my posts into a spellchecker, but I will try to be aware and edit them out if I notice them after posting, particulary if there are a lot of them, or if they are embarrassingly bad. I used to run my posts through a spellchecker 6 years ago when I started posting here, but not any more. My written English has improved a lot since then, so its not really needed (I hope?). Most errors I notice right away when writing the post.

I also very much agree with Drin here:

Long winded and boring = bad.
Long, but detailed and well written = good.

Short and sloppy = pointless
Short and understandable = good storytelling

But that also applies for normal non roleplaying posts. If you can put your points across without ranting or writing a novel, its a so much better read. That does not mean you should be "cheap". Make your point, but make it a good one or well founded.

[JMK]

If you're a terrible speller but still manage to get your opinion or message across, then good for you. Personally I can deal with that. But if you can't spell your way out of a wet paper bag while at the same time not having a legitimate point then you lose credibility above all else. If someone can't spell and make sense at a 4th grade level, even if they're a halfway intelligent person face to face, then I'll tend to disregard that person's word.

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

Here is what unofficially started this discussion:


Now I suggest you don't -edited- me off especially by insulting my intelligence seeing as i'm smarter then most full groan men and last time I checked which was over 3 years ago if i can remenber correctly my I.Q. wasnt less then 100 it was between 145-160. So all I have to say is dont make me kick your -edited- i'm not that stupid. I'm also the one taking advanced science and math classes.

And this is what more or less officially started it:


Ok first off, english skills mean jack -edited-.

There is more, but I thought I'd give a very small background as to why I'm asking this question. If anyone wishes, I'll be happy to repost the remainder.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

I just want to know what a full groan man is.

[Figrin D'an]

If anyone wishes, I'll be happy to repost the remainder.


Please do, if for no other reason than to amuse us further.

Said person will eventually realize how wrong he/she is on such things, be it of their own volition or not.

That said, given that internet is based upon text communication, basic grammar is a necessity. The occasional spelling mistake (of which we are all guilty), or even certain grammatical errors (again, which we all make from time to time) is fine. Effective transfer of ideas depends upon having a certain amount of defined structure, no matter the form. It's really that simple.

Like was mentioned earlier, breaking some of the standard conventions of grammar can be effective in certain instances. It's a matter of knowing how far to bend/break such rules, and using such techniques effectively. That comes with experience. To know when to bend the conventions, however, one must first learn and be able to use those conventions properly. Again, it's a simple logical progression to becoming a better writer and communicator.

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

I'm going to post this up in two parts, so here's part one:


Originally posted by Sir.Ogre
Now I suggest you don't –edited- me off especially by insulting my intelligence seeing as i'm smarter then most full groan men and last time I checked which was over 3 years ago if i can remenber correctly my I.Q. wasnt less then 100 it was between 145-160. So all I have to say is dont make me kick your –edited- i'm not that stupid. I'm also the one taking advanced science and math classes. I don't know about what you took but if I remenber you almost didn't make it out of high school.



Originally posted by s’Ilancy
For someone who's so smart and in possession of such a high degree of intelligence, your spelling, grammar, punctuation, and word usage aren't above a fifth grade level.

Here, let me help you fix that little vocabulary butcher job you've got there.

Now. I suggest you don't <smallfont -edited- me off by insulting my intelligence. I'm smarter than most full grown men, and last time I checked (which was over 3 years ago if I can remember correctly) my I.Q. wasn't less then 100; it was between 145-160. So don't make me kick your -edited-. I'm not that stupid; in fact, I'm taking advanced science and math classes. I don't know about what you took but if I remember, you almost didn't make it out of high school.

To be honest, that's really the best I can do. Your mangling of the written word is nigh on undecipherable.



Originally posted by Sir.Ogre
you're right my spelling and grammer is bad, but you know one thing. I have a hard time in english and also I have a learning disability. ... well it's not actualy a good thing, but I generaly don't really care if I don't use the proper grammer cuase this is a online game.

The point will get across either way.

Oh and more thing.. The reason I hate it when people insult my intelligence, is becuase im 6'3" and weigh 250 lbs. Booster knows what I look like since he lives within a mile of my house. See I'm pretty muscular and so people assume all bronze and no brains.

So when you are smarter then they are and they insult you, it gets a little agravating after a while

Then try putting up with it for 7 years, getting harrased at least twice a week



Originally posted by Ender
And I have a quote to add to what Ogre had to say:

"Never judge a person's inteligence by their grammer. Though someone who uses good grammer and vocabulary usually gets the job, they aren't always the right person."

This is a quote from one of my favorite teachers at my school. His name is Mr. Morris. You should talk to him sometime. He might creep the –edited- out of you, but at least he'll teach you do not be such a dick to people who aren't the same as you.



Originally posted by Sir.Ogre
There is one more thing that I would like to point out. Those of you who judge others just based on what they type..

Their grammer and spelling why?

You don't know us. We don't need to impress you, we have never even met you.

I bet you don't even believe my I.Q. could be between 145-160, but i dont care. What do I have to prove to you. I dont care what my typing looks like. Everyone that knows me likes me. Just ask Jeff raven, Ender, Hobbiteses, and Astrid(though her account may belong to some one else now) they all know me not the internet person you are reading a post from



Originally posted by s’Ilancy
If you're going to start spouting off that you're smart, you best back it up with good english skills. Or at the very least, correct word usage (ie; brawn not bronze).

I'm not actively trying to insult you. Think of this as a chance to get smarter, if you will. Yes, this is a game; but use it as a tool to increase your language skills.



As for Ender. I just plain don't care whether you think I'm being a 'dick' or not. Though I would prefer it if you used the correct gender expletive when calling me a name. In this case, bitch.



Originally posted by Sir.Ogre
hmmmm let me think ah no, see if I cared i would try harder, but seeing as the words i choose have no real effect on game play i don't really care.

Weither i use vibrant words or plain words it get the same point across, i simply dont care what my typing looks like.



Originally posted by Nementh
Ok first off, english skills mean jack –edited-. I am a fairly smart person and I screw up this language. However in Spanish or in Latin, I can get it perfect. (And latin I only started taking a class in this semester. I tested out of Latin I, II, and III from self study alone.)

However, an IQ if 140-160 is approx 1 on 100,000. IQ is not genetic. Outside of that, it really means nothing. It is a score then every month becomes less and less crucial in determining intelligance. Proof of this: President Bush's IQ score: 137.

IQ is your ability to absorb information and think logically. Has nothing to do with your ability to retain information, or make wise decisions.

I have also seen little evidance to the logic a high IQ would imbue. So I do doubt what you claim to be yoru score. Not going to say it is impossible though, as I do not know.

Now in regards to being in 'advanced' courses. By that turn of the phrase, I am going to assume you are a high school student. Advanced, in the world of AP, IB, and other similar programs, pretty much means you pay more attention then your average student.

If you want to brag about advanced courses, get into an IB or AP program, or do concurrent admissions at a local community college.

Nathaniel P. Lussier

(If you would like more information on these programs, feel free to contact me. I am a member of the Future Teachers of America, and Future College Educators of Southern California. As well as a mentor for Upward Bound, and an AP Tutor for a local High School.)



Originally posted by s’Ilancy
Nem, this is where I have to disagree with you on English skills meaning '-edited-'.

If you can't write a resume, cover letter, or any other pre-employment prereq, it's pretty hard to succeed in today's society. You might as well resign yourself to flipping burgers at the local fast food joint. Now, I know people who are very smart - yet at the same time lack the finer points of the written word. But they at least know how to form and write out coherent sentences.

And especially in the upper echelon of the business world, so to speak - the world of doctors and lawyers; even their assistants, English skills are a must have. I'm sure Vince can vouch for me when I say that if someone hands in a report that is written in the same manner with which Ogre is so adamant about preserving, he (Vince) would probably take one look at the first sentance before chucking it in to the round file.

Good English skills are something that I believe are being written off by much of the newer generations; who would rather use SMS text butchery and other forms of 1337speak. A well written story/post/what have you makes the reader's experience so much more enjoyable. If one has to continually play mental word replacement and ad in punctuation themselves while reading, it just takes the fun out of reading; instead making it a chore and simply unbearable at times.

Ogre, quite frankly, the words you choose to use DO in fact have an effect on 'gameplay', as you call it. People come here to have a fun and enjoyable experience; not to have to sit and decipher your posts. Creative and descriptive writing are what makes this kind of RPing fun. It's the chance to tell your own story in the Star Wars universe. If you have no regard for people's desire to read an engaging story without having to work through your writing, then I do feel sorry for you.

I never said you were stupid, or that you were not intelligent; I simply pointed out that your language skills are in dire need of some upgrading. Insulting someone and giving constructive criticism are two very different things. If I wanted to insult you, you would have known it. Ask anyone here who's known me for long enough and they will tell you the same thing.

You say you have a learning disability? So what. I really don't care. Using that as an excuse to counter the corrections I made in your post is nothing but a crutch. Learn and grow by reading how other people write. Use word's built in spellchecker. If you fall back on 'oh, but I have a learning disability', then it'll become a habit that will follow you in to adulthood.



As for the IQ thing, to be honest I always found it frivolous. Of course, that is most likely the artist in me talking.



Originally posted by Andy
Language skills - regardless of what language you use - are important. That said, IQ means jack- -edited- in my opinion. Some of my friends have scores that would suggest an average or even below average intelligence level but they are some of the smartest people I know. It is where they are smart that matters.

Intelligence isn't measured by your grasp of General Knowledge in Physics or Calculus. It is measured in your field, it what you are good at.

I have an above average IQ but I still did horrible in Physics(dropped the course cause I was failing). That said, I preform extensively well in History and Politics(my intended fields of study in University).



Originally posted by Nementh
You know what, English Skills do mean nothing. I mention I am fluent in spanish, and they don't care if I can write a sentance in English.

Now I do know my grammer, and when I am writing something important, IE Research Paper, etc... Then I will spend a lot of time focusing on spelling grammer, puncuation etc...

However, for a game, use perfect and proper English is pointless. If I get the grammer wrong, or mispell something, big deal. It is only important to be understood, and if the point is understood, no need to make sure everything is perfect.

Now, in the resume area. MS Word... all you need.

English skills, due to the advent of computers and the fact that the written language is just not as 'important' as it used to be, are fading in importance. Buisnesses don't care if you can spell, as long as you know how to use Spell Checker. Upper level buisness cares less, they have editors, and writers who care for them.

Simple fact, English is to complex, and most people will go everyday with out have 'perfect' or 'good' skills, espically in a society which preaches the importance of being multilingual, and encouraging languages, like the Romance Languages, that are so vastly different then English, that becoming proficent in both is a challenge to anyone but people who dedicate their lives to perfecting them.

Like Andy said, it is the field that determines intelligance.


Originally posted by s’Ilancy
How about we broaden the scope a bit, and take this discussion into a larger arena with a bit of a bigger 'pool of resources', so to speak. If you really do believe that English skills are unimportant in today's society, voice your opinion here.

Of course, I can imagine many of you saying that it isn't worth your time to be bothered with replying to the link I sent you.



Originally posted by Nementh
I am not going to waste my time registering at another site, just to make my point. It is made, and if I am copping out, oh well. If you want to have a real debate about english skills, come to one of the FTA meetings, or FCESC meetings, where we constantly discuss the importance of subjects.

Now I am not saying 'bad' english is acceptable, like it seems people are reading what I am say. But being fluent in a language does not require perfect grammer, spelling and puncuation.

Fact is, most people here are not college students, or graduates. A lot of the players will be High School students. English is not stressed much until the first year in college, so you also need to give an allowance for that.

That is all I have to say on this. Assume what you will.

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

Ok, I fibbed a little; I'lm going to put it up in three parts simply because the third installment takes something of a rather large twist.


Originally posted by s’Ilancy

Originally posted by Nementh
I am not going to waste my time registering at another site, just to make my point. It is made, and if I am copping out, oh well.

So basically, when you are presented with a group of people outside of your little comfort bubble; people who think differently than you do and who can articulate their side of the argument, it suddenly becomes not worth your time? Lovely.


If you want to have a real debate about english skills, come to one of the FTA meetings, or FCESC meetings, where we constantly discuss the importance of subjects.

Now this is just stupid. It's like saying 'I'm gonna kick your butt' over the internet to someone a thousand miles away. Let's get realistic here.


Now I am not saying 'bad' english is acceptable, like it seems people are reading what I am say.

'English skills mean nothing' is exactly what that says. Ergo, is exactly what you have said.


But being fluent in a language does not require perfect grammer, spelling and puncuation.

Of course it doesn't - but it does require at the very least a rudimentary knowledge of how to write and an adherence to the laws of the written word.


Fact is, most people here are not college students, or graduates. A lot of the players will be High School students.

Same with over there at the site I linked to. Are there alot of people there? Yes - and many of them are still in high school while others just graduated. There are kids all over the spectrum of age there, and most if not all of them can form a coherent sentence with proper punctuation, grammar, word usage, and spelling. This excuse of 'oh, but alot of these kids are still in high school' won't cut it. Rethink your strategy.


English is not stressed much until the first year in college, so you also need to give an allowance for that.

This is the saddest part of all - and coming from someone who aspires to be a teacher makes it plain horrible. I admit, some kids are certainly brighter than others in different areas, but that is no excuse for lack of anything. It only makes the process of learning a little more challenging, indepth, and meticulous. Some high schools are also better than others, but many times over it's the teachers who involuntarily dictate a student's level of literary skills. That you say English isn't stressed until the first year of college does not apply to all schools; the college I went to being a prime example.

You're wanting to be a teacher, and you're already making excuses for these kids. A good teacher doesn't do that; instead, he/she rises to the challenge of expanding a child's awareness in all different educational areas. I went to a high school that had a crap english department and a superb mathematics department. Then, I went to an art school and majored in computer animation without taking a single course in English/Language Arts. And yet here you see me typing well constructed sentences and knowing how to write, spell, and punctuate properly. Why? Because I constantly strove to better my knowledge of English skills. I scoured through dictionaries to look up words I didn't know, and I always had a thesaurus with me wherever I went. I read alot of books, noting the styles of each author and studying how they wrote. I challenged myself because my English teachers wouldn't do it for me. They were satisfied with performing only the bare minimum of what they were required to do.

Do I make mistakes? Everyone does. There'll always be a missing letter, misplaced period, etcetera. But the textual butchery which started this little debate is unacceptable. And yet sadly, it is becoming acceptable. What choice do people have, when not even teachers care about their students anymore? Kids are growing up illiterate, unable to write, and ill prepared for the challenges of our society. What else can society do when their children grow up unable to communicate effectively no matter what language is under discussion?

You have the chance to broaden horizons, son. And you've already given up.


That is all I have to say on this. Assume what you will.

F



Originally posted by Taliesin
Normally, I stay out of arguments like this one, and I'm still going to try. I'm not addressing any points brought up by either side, but...

Did you ever think that maybe the discipline he aspires to teach has nothing to do with English? If he's not an English teacher, what does it matter if he thinks English skills don't matter?

And when did his arguments on the issue (namely, English skills) become grounds for you to assault his character? That's one of the basic logical fallacies right there - attacking the person, not the issue.



Originally posted by s’Ilancy
English just so happened to be the subject that came up. No matter what field of study he is looking to teach, the desire to instill knowledge should be present in every aspect. I don't attack his character - I attack his opinion that certain areas of basic education mean crap. Do I condemn him? As an aspiring teacher, yes. As a person, no.

I see this as a disease of sorts; when one area of the body is infected, the infection will spread to every extremety. If we as a society allow such degradation to begin in a part of our educational system, then it will spread to all areas unless the problem is brought to a head.


Originally posted by Nementh
Alright, I have had enough of this. You want to argue, so you argue. When you find you do not have all the back up you expected, or people are not taking your bait, you move it to a board where you will have support.

And just so you know, if that board allowed guast posting, I would've posted. However, I am not going to sign up at a new board, just to respond to you're threat of copping out.

The point I have been making all along, dispite your fact to understand it. It is in english, so you should, but I guess you don't.

So let me say it again: I NEVER SAID NOT KNOWING BASIC SKILLS WAS UNIMPORTANT. I SAID KNOWING PERFECT GRAMMER, KNOWING PERFECT SPELLING, AND KNOWING PERFECT PPUNCTUATION IS NOT THAT IMPORTANT.

I order to be qualified fluent in a language, you need to be able to read, write, and speak at a US 8th Grade Level in that language. Now pick up your newspaper and tell me they have perfect grammer, perfect spelling, and please if you can find it, one with perfect puncuation.

Now, my invitation to come to a debate over here was ment to be a 'lets have a fight' at all. It was basically ment to point out that what you were asking me to do was both rude, and improper.

Now here is one line that had me confused: "That you say English isn't stressed until the first year of college does not apply to all schools; the college I went to being a prime example. " Does this mean it is stressed after the first year of college? Because I mean, can't get any earlier then the 1st year.

Now wanting to be a teacher has nothing to do with me trying to make excuses for students. It has nothing to do with me preparing for the intellectual void our society is quickly becoming.

Actually, lets talk about this void for a bit. Lets expand on this void. Lets ask why we have a void?

I think it has something to do with English and Math being the only two subjects (excuse me, I forgot about sports) that receive any support in schools anymore.

Biology programs have their funding cut to build new English Classrooms, or a new gym.

Art programs are rutinely cut to fill the holes that cutting other programs can't fill.

History is ignored, because it is not tested on.

You know what the problem with all this is?

If you have the best English skills in the world, but you do not recognize art, music, or history. You have nothing to write about. All the literture in the world will be nothing but paper. Why? Because a person wont have the experiences, the appreication, or the sheer knowledge of events, to understand what they are reading. They would just notice that some of the best writers in history use improper grammer, puncuation, and normally have serious issues with independent, and dependent clauses.

I do not advocate not teaching English. It is important, to a certain degree. Fluency in English is what we need. Mastering it should be for those who want to master it.

Everyone is required to know basic mathematics, but not everyone is required to know calculus.

Everyone is required to have a basic understand of Anthropology, or Socialogy, or Psychology. But no one is expected to master those subjects.

What right do we, as educators, future educators, or even peers, have to tell people they need to have mastered english. If you are going to ask that of people, you need to master Math, you need to master Anthropolgy, you need to master Biology, and all the other disicplines.

I will not respond again, as this was ment to explain to people what my comments really ment, since you decided to be so kind as to attack me. Take note on that if you plan on responding to me, or if you actually do. As far as I am concerned, this boxing match is over.


Originally posted by Seline Anseion
Because what would happen if some young aspiring student came up to you, and asked your help with his English paper? Your not going to know what your talking about, and if you try, your going to ruin his paper, possibly have him fail the subject, possibly resulting in a chain reaction which could eventually cause said student to drop out. Or if you dont help, your going to seem like either 1. An <smallfont color=#C0C0C0>-Censored-</smallfont> for not helping or 2. an idiot for not knowing about the subject. If I went to college, and asked one of my professors for help, and they didnt know English, it would make me feel real unsure reguarding their skills as a professor.



Originally posted by Toysoldier
I think Americans talking about English skills is hilariously ironic.

But hey, what makes a rainbow so beautiful are all it's different colors (if you understand what I said, props. But chances are, you wont).

I for one, dont particularly care about my own language skills. Being a Cancerian (yes, I brought the Zodiac into it! How New Age Liberalist of me!), I tend to speak from emotion rather than from any actual form of pre-concieved thought, as ~Cough~ many of my more heated posts are indicative of.

Anyways, I've always found people who use horrendously under-used, large words that they had to look up in a dictionary to be rather Moronic; it's like a 'My dick is bigger' contests for linguilists.

Far as I'm concerned: understand me you, understand you I, an' we all good.



Originally posted by Adam
I stayed out of this up until now because I find this entire subject to be incredibly varied, pointless, moronic, and even childish.

I don't know any other languages fluently. I can say somethings in 7 or so different languages, and I can read several dozen words and phrases, but I can't carry a conversation or write almost any of these said words.

However, I know English, I can speak if fluently, I can write it at least decently and I'm pretty sure I can carry a conversation in it.

Now, on to my point. English is English. French if French, German is German.

We live in a nation, or at least most of us do, where the English language is the FIRST national language, the one 99% of us use to communicate in. As we live here in said country where English is a prime factor in living life, anyone who can understand it and speak it and write it should be able to do so with at least some decency to the language instead of purposely screwing it up.

I'm sorry, I find people saying 'u' instead of you, or 'r' and 'y' instead of are and why are just downright inconsiderate to what it took to create the English language and it's complexity.

That, and you shouldn't have a high ranking job in a firm where you need to do that kind of typing if you purposely do not care about English, especially if it's your first learned language. If it's not your main tongue, I can see where that leads and why we have Spell-Check, but it's there in case of a mistake and shouldn't be used unless it has to be used.

No one needs to be perfect with their typing, but still, at least you should try and not be so damned lazy about it.

Edit: And no one's gonna change my mind about this because I'm a stubborn Aries. *goes with Terr on the Zodiac thing*



Originally posted by Toysoldier
Y'know, I used to use 'u' and 'r' and 'y' back in tha day when I was thirteen. But then I hit over eighty words per minute, and it was actually faster to type out 'you' than it was to first think of a vowel (or series thereof) that sounded like the word I wanted to use.

On the other hand, English is always changing. For instance, we tend not to use thy, thee, thou, faire, whilst, abhorrent, and a slew of other words on a daily basis. Quite frankly, what I see here in the comming decades is not a massacre of English, but another dialect.

Seriously, if we traveled back to ancient Anglo-Saxon Brittain, do you think that they would think we were speaking proper English right now? No. What people dont seem to understand is that, with every language, there are these things known as 'dialects'. The most common dialects of English are UK/International English, Canadian English, US English, and English-variation Ebonics (Most variations commonly found in urban areas, and the Carribean). The most common dialects of French are France/International French, Canadian French, and Québecois (Ebonics variation of Canadian French that, in it's truest form, uses English pronounciation of French words). There's also Franglais, which is a mixture of the Canadian dialect of English and Canadian French.

So really, when you say 'Speak proper English', ya'll should be definining what particular dialect of 'proper English' you would like a person to speak.


Originally posted by s’Ilancy
I see this as a disease of sorts; when one area of the body is infected, the infection will spread to every extremety. If we as a society allow such degradation to begin in a part of our educational system, then it will spread to all areas unless the problem is brought to a head.

Oh, honey. Up here in Quebec, Elementary School teachers arent allowed to fail students, because it's 'too damaging to self-esteem'. The edjumacational system has already degraded. Open your eyes. Do you think these kids would be typing 'c u l8er' if they'd been taught correctly?


Originally posted by s’Ilancy
Well, to be honest, I really thought I would get something of a good debate going, but for some odd reason a few people think of this as arguing and are treating it as such.

I'll let the matter go. I still stand firmly to my opinions that having good grammar is essential, however. I never said anyone had to be a perfect typist - where you're reading that I do not know.

I have a high amount of respect for Booster, as he did take the time to register at Fans and put forth his opinion. I started the thread over there for two reasons. One, I wanted to know what the people there thought of having good English skills; and two, because I wanted to see how many of you were dedicated enough in your opinions to put forth the effort. I did not start that thread because of any lack of support; I had plenty of that from enough people here.

Adam, Terr, Seline, my sincerest thanks for your posts. My apologies if you think I am trying to argue; that is not my intent. My eyebrows simply rose at both the "English skills mean jack" and "English skills do mean nothing" comments by Nementh.

Nementh:

A: I find nothing rude or improper in an invitation to discuss a subject in a civilized manner with an even larger group of people who can and will offer their own personal opinions.

B: About some colleges not stressing English in the first year; there are many colleges that do not stress English at all. Period.



And Terr, heh, what I said about infections was supposed to be something of a retrospective analogy. I know full well things are pretty damn poor in today's high schools. I've been out of high school for a while now, and even back before I graduated it was fairly bad. I may be blonde, but I'm not that out of touch with things ^_-

[Morgan Evanar]

That sort of attitude from someone who wants to be a teacher is disheartening. :(

I really don't know what else to say.

[Daiquiri]

Sil, I didnt know you had a dick!! :mischief

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

Neither did I, Daiq :lol

Here's part three. As I said last night, it takes quite a large twist and sends the entire topic into something completely different. This is where things really got interesting.

Khendon even registered and offered his own opinion.


Originally posted by Khendon Sevon
Look! First post! (Yes, I am a Fans poster. Taking five seconds and signing up here wasn't painful at all).


Originally posted by Nementh
I order to be qualified fluent in a language, you need to be able to read, write, and speak at a US 8th Grade Level in that language. Now pick up your newspaper and tell me they have perfect grammer, perfect spelling, and please if you can find it, one with perfect puncuation.

I don’t know what would be justified as “at an 8th grade level.” I had a class known as Communication Arts. In this class we were taught the arts of vocabulary, grammar, and punctuation. So, I guess an 8th grade level is fairly high.

As for the newspaper comment: do you think the newspapers take pride in making mistakes? No. Yes, mistakes happen, even to the best of us. As Dale Carnegie teaches, we let these mistakes go as part of the past. However, every editor constantly tries to improve his ratio of catches to misses. This is part of improving one’s self.

I speak from experience as an editor on Quill and Scroll’s number one high school newspaper in the nation.



Now here is one line that had me confused: "That you say English isn't stressed until the first year of college does not apply to all schools; the college I went to being a prime example. " Does this mean it is stressed after the first year of college? Because I mean, can't get any earlier then the 1st year.

I recently received my high school’s Language Arts Award for having an exemplary and noteworthy command of the English language. I invite you to read my posts at SW-Fans.net and see for yourself what a pre-college student can accomplish. Additionally, I have at least twenty high school friends who write with equal discipline and ability.

I recently completed my high school’s literary magazine. In it we featured an amazing short story written by a sophomore. It was, of course, virtually error free. If one person can do it, so can all others.



Now wanting to be a teacher has nothing to do with me trying to make excuses for students. It has nothing to do with me preparing for the intellectual void our society is quickly becoming.

Ehem, intellectual void? Is that the reason there are so many colleges and universities brimming with students that have ideals and dreams for the future? What about the amount of recent literature on educated subjects? (I just read Surviving the Extremes, amazing book. Joseph Campbell has some interesting writings, as well.)

My biology teacher took points off for typos and spelling mistakes in our laboratory reports. My math teacher did the same on our class presentations and reports. The same trend was followed by my physics, chemistry, world history, US history, world civilizations, sociology, and law teachers.



History is ignored, because it is not tested on.

I received a 4 (of 5) on my AP United States history examination as well as a 750 on my SAT II United States history test. I had several friends take the AP European history test, as well.

In addition to these, I have taken AP Biology, AP Literature, SAT II’s for Writing, and SAT II’s for Math.

Also, my high school requires an average of one quiz a week for all subjects.



If you have the best English skills in the world, but you do not recognize art, music, or history. You have nothing to write about. All the literture in the world will be nothing but paper. Why? Because a person wont have the experiences, the appreication, or the sheer knowledge of events, to understand what they are reading. They would just notice that some of the best writers in history use improper grammer, puncuation, and normally have serious issues with independent, and dependent clauses.

In order to be a good writer you have to be well read. As such, one generally has an appreciation for art, history, etc. I’d say this is one of your weakest arguments.

To embrace one is to embrace the other. This is especially true of creative writing.

By the way, what writers are you talking about? I don’t operate in vacuities.



Everyone is required to know basic mathematics, but not everyone is required to know calculus.

The colleges and universities that my friends and I are going to attend require at least pre-calculus to have been taken in high school. All of our majors require calculus courses to be taken.



Everyone is required to have a basic understand of Anthropology, or Socialogy, or Psychology. But no one is expected to master those subjects.

Napoleon Hill talks of specific knowledge. If we know a little of everything we have “general knowledge.” There is nothing you can do with this unless you also have specific knowledge. (i.e. the man that grasps philosophy barely and writing skills barely shall not be able to do anything with himself. He will not be able to write on the subject or practice the subject. One who masters philosophy and writing can achieve amazing literary and physical feats).

Individuals require specific skills that should be mastered in order to achieve a level of success. Writing is one of the skills that can be applied to all fields of study. No matter what higher education one goes to they will be required to write papers.



What right do we, as educators, future educators, or even peers, have to tell people they need to have mastered english. If you are going to ask that of people, you need to master Math, you need to master Anthropolgy, you need to master Biology, and all the other disicplines.

Not all fields require an understanding of history, biology, sociology, psychology, mathematics. However, all higher paying jobs require writing skills and comprehension.

Additionally, the colleges I applied to required writing samples as examples of your command of writing. My application included a discussion of the views of society on game developers. Personally, I feel my command of English gave me an edge over those applicants that were stronger in math but weaker in English.

Being able to write well is an indicator of one’s communication abilities. Colleges want students that will succeed in life. As such, they often aim for students who can communicate ideas and concepts well.



I will not respond again, as this was ment to explain to people what my comments really ment, since you decided to be so kind as to attack me. Take note on that if you plan on responding to me, or if you actually do. As far as I am concerned, this boxing match is over.

Please, for a moment, take into consideration the fact that you’re not actually being attacked.

You should work on your people skills and then your writings skills… success will follow.

Shocking moment: I go to a public school in New Jersey (just incase anyone was wondering if I go to private or one of those weird other places). Actually, my graduation is on the 25th. (And I am a stubborn Aries, as well)



Originally posted by Nyi Sai Ryi
You know what, Nate may not be replying anymore, but it does not mean I can not.

He never said you should not learn –edited- english.

He never said that English is not needed.

Here is what he –edited- said in a nutshell:

English skills are only important at certain points, and in those points, there are plenty of people, resources, software to help you through them.

And big fircken deal if you and 20 others are capable of good english skills, or hell getting high scores on an AP exam. Big deal. That is only 21 people out of how many American High School students?

The simple fact is this:

English, like Math, is over stressed.

Is it important, yes.

Is it important to master it?

No.

Most college graduates will tell you this.

Also, real world example, if English is SSSOOOOOO important, then why is it the third lowest paid degree in the buisness world?



Originally posted by s’Ilancy
Ryi, cool your jets.

I've already said I'd drop the matter. Why people seem to think I'm of the opinion that it's 'perfect writing skills or no deal' is beyond me. I've stated more than once that I know it's impossible to do so.



Originally posted by Ryi Sai Nyi
Wasn't talking to you, just your 'mego' friend from SWFan. *shrug*


Originally posted by Khendon Sevon

Originally posted by Nyi Sai Ryi
Also, real world example, if English is SSSOOOOOO important, then why is it the third lowest paid degree in the buisness world?

If you read my post, you'd notice I talked about mingling English prowess with other concentrations. Please, read and think before you critique. Also, I was not talking about the major itself. Again, reread my post.



And big fircken deal if you and 20 others are capable of good english skills, or hell getting high scores on an AP exam. Big deal. That is only 21 people out of how many American High School students?

The example is supposed to give you an idea of the demographic. Simply, if I can rattle off twenty names without effort of great writers in a class of 180 students, there have to be many more out there. Of course, all of the writers I know actively write short stories and attempt to make them error free. Ergo, they are different from those that believe butchery is acceptable.



English, like Math, is over stressed.

They’re called fundamentals.


From the Dictionary:
fun·da·men·tal - adj.:
Of or relating to the foundation or base



Most college graduates will tell you this…

I have plenty of graduates that will counter your theory, and with eloquence—something they’ve learned through writing. However, since you lacked the foresight to specify any individuals that have said such a thing, I will cite ones that have said writing and the ability to write are extremely important to them:

Bobby: He graduated from Rutgers law and has written several articles that have been published. He is constantly writing and has encouraged my own writing.

Steven: Yet another lawyer. I had a lunch discussion with him on game design and we touched on the significance of writing skills in the creative process. He said I should become an entertainment lawyer (I found that hilarious).

Vicki: NYU graduate currently doing PR for a jewelry design company. Uses her writing abilities daily in her career.

Debbie: Has a degree in sociology and in education. She never really enjoyed writing or found it useful until she had to write a thesis on Greek burial traditions. That’s when she started to love the written language and its ability to portray events in an organized and developed manner.

I have a bit of advice for you:

Take a moment to sit back from your computer screen. Get out a nice piece of clean paper and a pen. Put a fold down the center of the paper (creating a column divide). On the left side put pros and on the right side cons.

Now, simply place all of the advantages of knowing/applying the English language well on the left side and the disadvantages of knowing/applying it on the right side.



Wasn't talking to you, just your 'mego' friend from SWFan. *shrug*

Do you mean megalo? As in megalomaniac... or is mego some slang I don't know?



Originally posted by Nyi Sai Ryi
'Mego' is a modern mental devolpment term. It is a child in the high school age range. It is what we say so we don't have to say: 'Me first ego personality' every single time. It is not an insult, so don't think it that way. In fact nothing I wrote was an insult, just angry, and not very elegent.

You see, quite frankly I could care less about this subject or not. You see, I am a succesful researcher in child devolpment. I make big dollars, and I use 'true' english skills about once in a blue moon. You have more then likely already read, or at least been exposed to some of my research, espically as an AP student, considering I have done most of it on the effects of 'track' education.

Just so you know, the 'Mego' personality is the state of mind in devolpment where the indivdual believes that just because he is a certain way, and his friends are a certain way, everyone is like that to a degree.

While you may deny this, your statement:


Originally posted by Khendon Sevon
"The example is supposed to give you an idea of the demographic. Simply, if I can rattle off twenty names without effort of great writers in a class of 180 students, there have to be many more out there."

proves my interperation. What you have not considered is that, thanks in large part to track education, children are grouped with like minded children with similar intelligance, and ambition. What this creates is an illusion that all people are alike, because you rarly socialize outside of your track.

Fact is, just because you can name 20 good writers, doesn't mean Mary Sue across campus can. But I bet she can name 20 people who can do something, and you wont know anyone who can do that.

It is why I posted merely in Nate's defense, and not going to enter an arguement. What I have read here tells me no one has any background in child devolpment, or has brushed up on contemperary teaching, and education reviews.

Nate has, and he has won awards for his ideas in this field, and has been given quite a bit of local acclaim. One of his 'theoritc' models is currently being tested by UCR. He is an undergrad student, and his ideas are being looked at more then a post-grad PhD.

Before you completely devalue anything he says as faulty, or wrong. Think about the fact that he is treated as a post-grad in all ways but his degree. He isn't even studing child devolpment, he is an Anthropology Major with an Emphisis on Histroical Archaeology.

It is true the internet is a great equalizer. It can bring you into contact with hundreds of intelligent professionals, but it is pointless to talk to them if you do not listen to their ideas.

Margret K. Dehill, M.A. Child Devolpmental Psychology
Associate Researcher, UCR


Originally posted by Khendon Sevon
Two comments in this post:

First,
I never knew there was someone so astute behind the name. I’m intrigued about your work. Psychology has always been one of my favorite subjects. Could you please link me to some of your published works? Thank you in advance.

Second,
What does developmental psychology have to do with the importance of English in the real world? Maybe I’m being shortsighted. As far as I can tell we need a specialist in the job market if we’re talking about monetary value. Maybe someone with a specialty in communications could help? They'd know the value of English in varying fields/personal aspects (I'd like to think we all know the value of language written and spoken. However, it doesn't seem to be the case).

Technically, we’re talking about a very finite element of a complex society. As far as I can see, this isn’t your field of expertise. I have no clue why you brought your job into this. Clearly you’re proud of it (one must enjoy their job to be good at it).


Originally posted by Toysoldier


Originally posted by s’Ilancy
Adam, Terr, Seline, my sincerest thanks for your posts. My apologies if you think I am trying to argue; that is not my intent. My eyebrows simply rose at both the "English skills mean jack-<smallfont color=#C0C0C0>-Censored-</smallfont>" and "English skills do mean nothing" comments by Nementh.

I didnt think you were trying to argue. As I saw it, this was more of a debate. That's why I havent sworn once (I dont think?). Personally, I would love it if everyone typed and wrote 'properly', although I must say that in regaurds to your comment about articulation in books (I think it was you who wrote that comment, could be wrong), I have to disagree a little. While I do find that having to mentally correct sentences in novels annoying, books that take frou pages to say 'the sky is blue' tend to put me to sleep.



And Terr, heh, what I said about infections was supposed to be something of a retrospective analogy. I know full well things are pretty damn <smallfont color=#C0C0C0>-Censored-</smallfont>-poor in today's high schools. I've been out of high school for a while now, and even back before I graduated it was fairly bad. I may be blonde, but I'm not that out of touch with things ^_-

I was poking fun at other hi-lee ejumacated people, not you.

I dropped out of school because of it's absolute absurdity; I was failing High-School pretty fiercely, ended up havin the School Board force me into another school for 'troubled teens' (think Lock Up. I was the first and only student at Dawson Alternative who did not live in a Group Home, and was not property of the Judicial System). I did so remarkably well that they kicked me out (my marks trippled in one term). It was then that every ounce of faith I had that someone actually gave a <smallfont color=#C0C0C0>-Censored-</smallfont> about whether or not I could succeed and make something of myself was so utterly and effectively crushed.


Originally posted by s’Ilancy


Originally posted by ToySoldier
... although I must say that in regaurds to your comment about articulation in books (I think it was you who wrote that comment, could be wrong), I have to disagree a little. While I do find that having to mentally correct sentences in novels annoying, books that take frou pages to say 'the sky is blue' tend to put me to sleep.


Originally posted by s'Ilancy
A well written story/post/what have you makes the reader's experience so much more enjoyable. If one has to continually play mental word replacement and ad in punctuation themselves while reading, it just takes the fun out of reading; instead making it a chore and simply unbearable at times.

Is this what you were talking about? If so, what I was referring to were posts and threads, not books.


I withdrew from this debate because people were making gross assumptions about what I wrote, and going so far as to say I said things that I very clearly did not. The only issues I was concerned about stemmed from these statements:


Originally posted by Nementh
Ok first off, english skills mean jack <smallfont color=#C0C0C0>-Censored-</smallfont>.


Originally posted by Nementh
You know what, English Skills do mean nothing.


Originally posted by Nementh
English skills, due to the advent of computers and the fact that the written language is just not as 'important' as it used to be, are fading in importance. Buisnesses don't care if you can spell, as long as you know how to use Spell Checker. Upper level buisness cares less, they have editors, and writers who care for them.

Simple fact, English is to complex, and most people will go everyday with out have 'perfect' or 'good' skills...

Now, I always said good english skills; not perfect english skills. Nementh was the first one to bring up perfect english skills. All I was trying to stress was that writing skills are very important as a necessary means of communication. If some people would go back, actually read and comprehend what I wrote, actually think about it, they'd understand.

English isn't fading in importance in the least; in fact, it is growing every day.

I have remained calm in this entire thing; I have examined and broken down Nementh's posts. I have provided valid arguments. I have not insulted anyone, and I haven't attacked anyone. The only person who got any sort of flustered and blustery at all was Nementh and Ryi; that is to say, until she decided to bring her job field into this.

Where child psychology fits in to a 'value of writing skills' debate I really don't know; nor do I care. Child Psychology isn't what I started this thread for. Addressing ''english skills mean <smallfont color=#C0C0C0>-Censored-</smallfont>' is what had me interested.

If it was a bad choice of words, then all Nem had to do was say so. Instead, what I saw after everything I wrote was just a spectacular show of backpedaling and an attempt to misconstrue what I originally wrote and cast it in an untrue light.

This was not a "boxing match", as Nem called it (treating it as such as well); it was a debate. I do however, find it curious that Terr, a dropout by his own admission, understood what I was trying to do and responded in form.


Originally posted by Toysoldier
Erm, my bad. Guess I was wrong that it was you who had said that.


Originally posted by Nementh
Umm to defend Ryi, she was leaving for the airport at that moment, and didn't get to finish her post. She promises she will explain how Child Psychology factors in when she gets back from San Fran.

I will give you a sneak peak though. Her Master Thesis was on education, and the affects on devolpment. In it she talks specifically about the devolpmental harm of stressing certain subjects to all students, regardless of 'mental preferance.'

For example, a verbal student is going to do well in reading and language areas, where as they will tend to do poorly in mathematics, and art. Factual students will do well in history, science, and math, but poorly in english, and language skills.

She describes about 8 different types. My model she mentioned earlier actually stem from the same research she used for her paper.

She can describe it much better then I can, being that I am a Historical Archaeology guy :-p I can tell you anything you could ever want to know about the devolpment of Imperial Civilizations though... (Also got quite a bit of research and knowledge on England from about 1300 to present, China from 600 BC to present, and Rome from 500 BC to present, with auxilary information in Greece, USA, Japan, and Germany. I love to talk about this stuff by the way, so only ask if you are not easily board by history.)

Anyways, I am done with this conversation. Fact is, my opinion was miss read, s'Il's was misread... and because of this we have spent a long long time going in circles. I'd rather just go back to research.


Originally posted by Adam
Er, I didn't mean to to come across as this was being an arguement, but a debate doesn't usual degenerate into blatant insults like that.

Maybe they were a bit vague to others, but they were pretty blatant myself.

And if Ryi is going to swear one more time like her second alst post, I'm requesting this thread be locked because the language there was another factor in degenerating this thread. In fact, that was really what was downright childish.

This thread was about ENGLISH skills. not PYSCHOLOGY, or a doctorate in HISTORY, or whatever...but ENGLISH.

Now if people can understand THAT, we can get back on track.


Originally posted by s’Ilancy
Actually Adam, I'd rather like to see what 'Margret K. Dehill' has to say. I've been somewhat waiting for an explanation of her post, which is why I haven't posted until now.

Of course all that being said, I'm going to have to call Margret K. Dehill's bluff. Respectfully ma'am, that is the biggest load of hogwash I have ever read.


Originally posted by Nementh
She hasn't posted at my request. If you want an explination, IM her. I thought it was best to let this subject die though.


Originally posted by s’Ilancy
'Hasn't posted at your request'?

By your own words, she promised to expound on the subject. And now you are telling me you 'asked her not to post'?

That's a bit suspect.

I have ready access to all articles published by UCR. I have had them searched, and found no mention of the word 'mego', 'track education', and interestingly enough, nothing by one 'Margret K. Dehill'.

I have searched google, and found nothing. Wikipedia yields the same lack of results.

And, from what I can find, UCR has not one mention of a 'Margret K. Dehill'. For an 'associate researcher' who makes 'big dollars' - which that in itself is not a very solid statement- I would think that I would find her name somewhere on the UCR website; let alone through google.


Originally posted by Nementh
I would like this thread locked. It has become a witch hunt to attack not an issue, but the moral fabric of those arguing it. As far as I am concerned this thread will no longer even be viewed by me. If at some point a debate can be contiuned with out the slander, and the attack of peoples accomplishments, then I will join.

One last note, very few master degrees have anything published, now I thought she had published, I was recently informed she hasn't. However if you have complete accsess to UCR Library and Records, then you are a student here, and feel free to pull up her Masters Thesis in the fall which is on file.

BTW: Non-students do not have accsess to the College Databases, which means there is a lot you miss.

I have left her message to PM you though, so she can tell you her 'hawgwash.'


Originally posted by Keiran
Why lock it? All involved parties are being perfectly respectable, and there's no flaming or spamming besides mine.

Are you suggesting that we lock a thread every single time somebody calls somebody else's judgement into question? If you don't like it, don't read it and don't post. If you don't want to answer the question, -edited- don't. Just because it offends you is no reason for judicial action. No law/protocol/guideline/whateverthe-edited-youwannacallit is broken, as of yet.

This place does not cater to any one person more than any other, regardless of whether they RP here or not.

So, I suppose I'm waiting for a PM from this Mrs. Dehill. Of course, I'm also waiting for an email from UCR confirming or denying the presence of this woman, and the validity of her post. I did mention the M.A. tag she included after her name, since as far as I know that stands for Master of Arts. And if that's the case, how does one get a Master of Arts in psychology???

[Khendon Sevon]

I exchanged a few PM's with Nementh that basically consisted of him delaying sending me anything. Nyi also PM'd me (has to be the same person, they both spell roughly the same words incorrectly, etc) and said that her thesis wasn't published yet.

It's a lot of bunkum ;)

[Anbira Hicchoru]

I really fail to see why you visit that place. It's easily your worst bad habit, smoking included.