Fate of the clones after ROTS

[MercZ]

After watching ROTS, I wondered about the fate of the clones. Now in the original trilogy, I was under the impression that the stormtroopers were average conscrpited humans. I thought for a moment that the stormtroopers could've been clones, but in that case the empire would've had an unbeatable army. So if the stormtroopers are humans, what happened to all the clones? Did they stop cloning and let the clones die off in war? Or did something happen to them?

[Cirrsseeto Quez]

The stormtroopers are still clones, just from different hosts by that time, since Kaminoan clones superannuate rather fast. The first batch would probably be dying of old age at 20 years or so.

[Rutabaga]

I just assumed that by the time of ANH, the Empire was conscripting humans, so the troopers were a mix of older clones and average joes who signed up or were drafted.

[JMK]

My belief is that this is something that Lucas will correct in later revisions of the OT. I really think he will have Temuera Morrison come in a re-record all Stormtrooper lines and then we will have our answer. To me there's no reason why Jango's DNA can't be preserved forever and used to create as many clones as the Emperor would need.

[Darth McBain]

I agree with Jinn, I think that they're probably mostly clones, but as the Empire grows, they have to have regular guys joining the army, so it's probably a mix. But JMK brings up a good point too - they should be able to save Jango's DNA indefinitely. Maybe they somehow lost the ability to actually make clones - I got the impression that it isn't the most mainstream technology in the SW Universe, so maybe the Kaminoans decided against doing business with the Empire once it was declared. Ahh, total speculation, but who knows?

[Anbira Hicchoru]

If they could keep Jango's DNA indefinitely, there would be no need to house him long-term on Kamino, would there?

[Darth McBain]

Originally posted by Anbira Hicchoru
If they could keep Jango's DNA indefinitely, there would be no need to house him long-term on Kamino, would there?

Another good point - I wouldn't exactly call Kamino a hot vacation destination, so he probably wouldn't be hanging out there if they didn't need him for one reason or another in the cloning process...

[MercZ]

It just seemed strange though, if stormtroopers had still been clones, they would have easily creamed the alliance, so maybe they did lose the ability to clone.

[JMK]

Listen, we can recover DNA from people long gone, we can do all kinds of things.

The SW universe has hyperdrives, lightsabers and battle stations the size of a moon. They have the technology to preserve DNA indefinetly.

I'm not sure why the Kaminoans keep Jango, but I'm sure it's not to get fresh samples.

[Anbira Hicchoru]

Originally posted by MercZ
It just seemed strange though, if stormtroopers had still been clones, they would have easily creamed the alliance, so maybe they did lose the ability to clone.

Or began cloning other templates that were less qualified than the original.

[QuiGonJ]

Then again, most sci-fi cloning plots from Doctor Who to Star Trek: The Next Generation speak of something called "genetic drift", wherein like VHS, the more you copy, the worse the copies get. So I'll also go along with the idea that it later became a mix and the Clone Wars clones are in the Old Clones home by the time of the OT. Maybe a few are still senior stormtroopers or trainers, but that would be about it.

[Anbira Hicchoru]

Not likely, considering the artificial growth acceleration. These guys would probably croak fast.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Let's not forget in AHN they're all different heights and one bonks his head against a doorway, proving either they messed up in the cloning process and created a tall one, or he's just a regular Joe-Stormtrooper conscript, OR they started cloning taller humans.

I believe there was a battle at Kamino in the EU during the Clone Wars, wasn't there? I haven't read the book/comic, but perhaps during the battle the cloning facilities are destroyed.

[MercZ]

That could be a possibility. The thing that confused me was that before the prequels came out, the books in the expanded universe stated that cloning was lost after the clone wars and palpatine had some of the few remaining tanks. Maybe the people on Kamino sabatoged them to make sure that they wouldn't be used for surpression. And the other idea is good too, maybe the more they cloned, the more bad the results were.

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

But what about the 'Aren't you a little short for a stormtrooper?' line from the Princess?

[Navaria Tarkin]

Who knows. I mean, Leia may or may not have been the another Yoda spoke to with Ben in ESB's.

Anyline from the OT you have to second guess >_< Well, I do at least

[Anbira Hicchoru]

The cloning facility is not destroyed at the battle of Kamino.


Originally posted by MercZ
That could be a possibility. The thing that confused me was that before the prequels came out, the books in the expanded universe stated that cloning was lost after the clone wars and palpatine had some of the few remaining tanks. Maybe the people on Kamino sabatoged them to make sure that they wouldn't be used for surpression. And the other idea is good too, maybe the more they cloned, the more bad the results were.

Spaarti and Kaminoan cloning methods are not anything close to each other.

EU < Canon, and especially the older EU stuff should be taken with a huge grain of salt, since that whole junk pile is a retcon waiting to happen.

[JMK]

Did anyone here suspect, back in the 80's & 90's (and I guess the old farts here that remember SW back in the 70's) that Stormtroopers were clones, or the successors of the clones?

[Darth McBain]

I honestly never thought about it until the late 90s when I heard that the prequels were coming out. I was thinking when Luke mentioned the Clone Wars that maybe we'd get to see what they were all about in these new movies, which got me to thinking if there were clones, where are they now? I'd say I was probably 50-50 in thinking they might be stormtroopers, but they might be something else entirely... Who knew at that point...

[Morgan Evanar]

Originally posted by s'Ilancy
But what about the 'Aren't you a little short for a stormtrooper?' line from the Princess? I think the Empire had target heights. It used to be a common thing in some militaries.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I agree with Qui-Gon here I think the more you copy something the more distorted the copy gets that is why the troopers are not as good as during the clone wars. Also realize these troopers were still good remember Obi-wan's line in ANH,
"Only Imperial Stromtroopers are that precise." Also the rebellion was getting stomped consider ESB they got routed basically. Honestly, Palpatine screwed up the Rebellion probably could never had won a long drawn out war, if it became a war of attrition, he lured the rebels into a trap that ended up destroying the Empire. That is what did the Empire in.

[CMJ]

To answer JMK's question - I always thought the Storm Troopers sounded the same. I started wondering if they were clones in the early to mid 90's.

[Khendon Sevon]

I'd say the facilities for producing clone troopers weren't large enough for filling the demands of the growing Empire.

As such, they mingled clones with trained soldiers... or maybe they stopped making clones because they were expensive? That would explain why stormtroopers are looked at as less-elite, they maybe have only a couple years of training as opposed to the "life" of training for the clones.

Additionally, we can currently retain genetic information indefinitely and clone any part we want of it. This process is called PCR—Polymerase Chain Reaction. There isn’t a degradation factor, either.

[QuiGonJ]

True, but Star Wars and our science never did like each other much.

There's a thread on CCnet bout that part: Sound in space, people breathing air on planets with no trees to support the O2/CO2 air cycle (Coruscant, Hoth, Tatooine, Mustafar), that kinda thing. :)

[Morgan Evanar]

Qui Gon, I think Coruscant has scrubbers. Hoth and Mustafar are far from occupied. I don't think that Tatooine is devoid of vegetation, and there certainly has to be something. I mean, while it wasn't important to Lucas, it was tremendously important to Frank Herbert and Dune, and I believe that Herbert did thorough ecological research.

[Sasseeri Reeouurra]

They can get water out of the air (vaporators) and so there must be oxygen and hydrogen in the air. There's probably a bacteria that grows in really hot climates that produces it or something. ;)

[Liam Jinn]

Originally posted by QuiGonJ
True, but Star Wars and our science never did like each other much.

There's a thread on CCnet bout that part: Sound in space, people breathing air on planets with no trees to support the O2/CO2 air cycle (Coruscant, Hoth, Tatooine, Mustafar), that kinda thing. :)

You forgot gravity in space :p

[Darth McBain]

Originally posted by Liam Jinn
You forgot gravity in space :p

And the fact that they have a mysterious device called a lightsaber that emits a beam of energy that somehow stops after 3 or 4 feet, and is made of light yet acts in some ways like a solid... :lol

The physics doesn't quite add up, but is it really that important? It's fantasy for crying out loud...

[Liam Jinn]

:(

Way to burst my bubble McBain..

[Darth McBain]

Sorry - guess that maybe came across wrong. I was agreeing with ya - I just find it funny that so many people get hung up on the physics not working in SW...

Anyway, sorry if I offended - we cool?

[Doc Milo]

"Aren't you a little short for a stormtrooper?"

Now, this could mean there is a height requirement, but I always assumed they were clones. I figured the conscripted forces were drafted to become officers.

[Jedi Master Carr]

That is what I figured Doc, I figured there was an officer academy. I don't Clones could do their work.

[Liam Jinn]

You didn't offend me :mneh

If I had to bet, I'd say the stormtroopers were clones but maybe not Jango's clones. Maybe some officer volunteered to make a couple batches...

[Cirrsseeto Quez]

Originally posted by Liam Jinn
You didn't offend me :mneh

If I had to bet, I'd say the stormtroopers were clones but maybe not Jango's clones. Maybe some officer volunteered to make a couple batches...

Or a governor's kid, who was the beneficiary of favor-pulling and dirty politics.

It would explain why quality decreases as quantity increases.

[MercZ]

Yea, it could explain it. The stormtroopers usually relied on numbers than skill, so probably a bad DNA host somewhere down the road.

[Doc Milo]

Stormtroopers had the reputation, at that time, to the beings in the Star Wars galaxy, as being elite warriors. Now, this doesn't seem to play out in the movies -- they can't seem to hit the broad side of a barn -- but there is a line by Obi-Wan that reveals their reputation:

"And these blast points. Too accurate for Sand People. Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise."

And I wouldn't say that Palpatine having clones for stormtroopers would make him invincible. The clones needed time to grow, so only a certain number would be available at any one time -- not a limitless supply. As older clones got too old for their purpose, younger ones would take their place.... The Rebels were already outnumbered anyway. It wasn't a numbers game that allowed them to win. It was their heart and their conviction.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Also Palpatine's arrogance the rebellion were few in number at Endor, I bet all of their forces were at that battle. Palpatine set a trap thinking he could destroy them but it ended up destroying him and dooming the Empire.

[Oriadin]

Jango hit his head on his ship after fighting Obi-Wan on Kamino. Im sure I read somewhere that this was done on purpose so it would filter down to storm troopers. Perhaps they simply stopped having such an intense training program since the galaxy was under rule of Palpatine. Mostly the war was won, they had the rebels to fight off and the rest of the galaxy to keep in check, but in comparison with the Clone wars when the whole galaxy was at war, they probably didnt have to be so elite.

[Tiberius Anar]

I have a few arguements for this one. I'd say that stormtroopers and the Imperial forces in general are not clones because:

The Visual Dictionary states that after the Clone Wars are over the Empire begins recruiting and training rather than cloning its armed forces.

It is made apparent in the ROTS novel by Stover that this process of recruitment has already begun by identifying Lorth Needa as serving on one the Republic Navy ships.

There are instances in the EU in which there are identifiable, individual stormtroopers. The same goes for TIE pilots and officers. If one has the capacity to create armies of cloned stormtroopers, why not simply produce an entire military of them?

The rapid aging of most clones makes maintaining an entire galactic force of them unworkable. One would be locked into a constant cycle of cloning and replacement that would be ruinously expensive and most likely a losing battle as casualty rates from combat and accidents combined with the whittling down of numbers by aging eliminate troops.

It is apparent in the EU that the technology for cloning is scarce by the time we get to Thrawn's campaign. If the Empire had possessed the capacity to clone troops in numbers large enough to create a military and keep it up to strength that technology would not have disappeared so rapidly.

Finally in answer to this:


Originally posted by JMK
Listen, we can recover DNA from people long gone, we can do all kinds of things.

The SW universe has hyperdrives, lightsabers and battle stations the size of a moon. They have the technology to preserve DNA indefinetly.

I'm not sure why the Kaminoans keep Jango, but I'm sure it's not to get fresh samples.

Technology does not have to develop in the same fashion in the SW Galaxy as it does in this one. Given the chance nature of many discoveries, technology might not follow the same development pattern as it has here on Earth. Different people, values, cultures and event would lead to the development of different kinds of tech so one could conceivably have a society capable of trans-galactic travel that has not developed the same level of DNA sampling technology.

[Anbira Hicchoru]

Please stop trying to rely on older EU to explain this stuff away, when Lucas has consistently shown an aversion to sticking to it :)

[JMK]

The EU does not count when talking in context of the movies. The movies have influence over the EU, but the EU has no bearing on the movies whatsoever.

[Jedieb]

Originally posted by JMK
The EU does not count when talking in context of the movies. The movies have influence over the EU, but the EU has no bearing on the movies whatsoever.
Exactly, Lucas contradicts himself, you can bet he'll ignore EU wheneven he chooses. He's already talked about this and answered the question. They've gone to different batches so you've got a mix of different clone lines and recruits. See, where the Empire really screwed up is when they relied on amphibian DNA to fill in the missing gaps in Jango's DNA structure. After that, it was only a matter of time before Stormtroopers lost the ability to shoot straight or defend themselves from 3 foot tall teddy bears.

[Rutabaga]

Originally posted by Jedieb
Exactly, Lucas contradicts himself, you can bet he'll ignore EU wheneven he chooses. He's already talked about this and answered the question. They've gone to different batches so you've got a mix of different clone lines and recruits. See, where the Empire really screwed up is when they relied on amphibian DNA to fill in the missing gaps in Jango's DNA structure. After that, it was only a matter of time before Stormtroopers lost the ability to shoot straight or defend themselves from 3 foot tall teddy bears.

Because remember, nature always finds a way. ;)

[Jedieb]

Ah, another Chaos Thoery fan. :)

[Sanis Prent]

This makes me want to watch Multiplicity again :)

[CMJ]

Originally posted by Jedieb
See, where the Empire really screwed up is when they relied on amphibian DNA to fill in the missing gaps in Jango's DNA structure. After that, it was only a matter of time before Stormtroopers lost the ability to shoot straight or defend themselves from 3 foot tall teddy bears.

:lol:lol :lol LMAO!:lol :lol :lol

[Darth McBain]

That's awesome EB - I missed that the first time I read through this thread... :lol

[MercZ]

Missed what?

[Jedieb]

Cheap Jurassic Park references.

[Jedi Master Carr]

LOL loved the Jurassic Park reference.

[JMK]

http://www.starwars.com/databank/organization/clonetroopers/?id=eu

I didn't know there was already an official answer to this, but here it is.


Following the rise of the Empire, the military cloning program expanded to include new clone hosts. By the time of the Empire consolidated its power by dissolving the Senate, the ranks of the Imperial stormtroopers would include cloned infantry from multiple sources as well as birth-born conscripts and recruits from various worlds.

[CMJ]

Good find Kyle!