Musings on Anakin/Vader/Palpatine (spoilers)

[Doc Milo]

The "Musing on Obi-Wan" thread has inspired me to start this one. A lot of good interpretation has come out of that thread...

Here goes. I haven't read the novelization, so my point of view in this is strictly the movie.

After Anakin's fall, after the "Frankenstien's Monster" scene -- when Palpatine says, "Lord Vader, can you hear me?" and Vader replies "Yes, Master." He then inquires about Padme. Palpatine tells him that "In your rage, it seems you killed her." Now, does Palpatine think this is true, or does he blatently lie to Vader? It seems Palpatine would know this is false, and tells it to Vader to spark more anger and hatred. By why tell Vader that she was killed by his rage? Why not blame Obi-Wan?

I feel that Palpatine know that to keep Anakin as Vader, Anakin needs someone to hate. If he blames Obi-Wan, Vader will search the galaxy to hunt down the Jedi, and kill him. Once that is done, Anakin will be without that something to hate. In telling Vader that he killed her out of his rage, Palpatine gives Vader a thing to hate that he can't possibly get rid of -- himself. If Vader believes what Palpatine tells him about Padme, then he is to blame for her death. He can now have a focus for his anger and hatred -- something that will not go away for as long as Vader himself lives. He will hate himself.

Of course, he still hates Obi-Wan. But not at the point where he would find it important to hunt down and destroy him, at all costs. In one fell swoop, Palpatine ensures anger and hatred rule Vader's life, while keeping him focused on the things Palpatine himself wants Vader to do.

Any other insights as to why Palpatine tells Vader this?

(On the side, Vader is indirectly responsible for Padme's death, because she died of a broken heart. Therefore, what Palpatine tells Vader is true, from a certain point of view....)

[Rutabaga]

I agree with you completely...as it is, when Anakin last saw Padme, she was lying in a heap on the landing platform on Mustafar. He never saw her move again, so for all he knows, she died at that point. Plus, even though she really did live long enough to give birth to Luke and Leia, technically speaking, Vader did kill her. That one moment on Mustafar was the knife in her heart that left her so bereft and so empty that she felt she had nothing left to live for.

Padme says, "Anakin, you're breaking my heart!" And he did. Her heart broke, and she died.

I don't know if this was all precisely in Palpatine's plans, but still it was exactly what he needed. And yes, it gave Vader someplace to focus his hatred...directly upon himself. His self-hatred is what fed his anger, and it was his anger that kept him so able to draw upon the Dark Side of the Force. To have given him even the slightest glimmer of hope would have meant there was always a chance that Vader could slip away and turn back toward the light. He needed to be kept in the dark, literally, figuratively, spiritually, and emotionally. The fear of loss is the path to the Dark Side....

Perhaps it was all in Palpatine's plans after all. Remember that one moment early in AOTC when he so plaintively said, "Do it for me, My Lady. To lose you...would be unbearable."

My goodness, how philosophical I've become lately. :)

[CMJ]

Good stuff guys.

I would like to add Vader hating the Emperor to the mix. I'm sure part of him feels VERY duped by the whole enterprise. I remember reading the ROTJ novelization years ago and I seem to recall Vader hating Palpatine nearly as much as Obi Wan.

[Anbira Hicchoru]

Originally posted by CMJ
Good stuff guys.

I would like to add Vader hating the Emperor to the mix. I'm sure part of him feels VERY duped by the whole enterprise. I remember reading the ROTJ novelization years ago and I seem to recall Vader hating Palpatine nealry as much as Obi Wan.

Once Palpatine's deception is revealed in the Chancellor's office, this is certainly evident. Anakin, ergo Darth Vader hates Palpatine a very great deal. Easily enough to wish his death. This shows absolutely no sign of abating. His allegiance to Palpatine is for the sake of increasing his own power, to whatever end he sees fit. After his betrayal of Master Windu, there's no longer any other option for him.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Well
I figure he also hates him because of the fact that he realized that Palpatine tried to do Padme in, along with the fact he is a Sith but like you said after he betrayed Mace he had no more choice .

[CMJ]

Agreed. As I said in another thread, according to that ROTJ novelization Vader was trying to get Luke to help him overthrow Palpatine, before Luke whipped him.

Obviously not alot of love was lost between the two. He has no doubt hated Palpatine for, what, 25 or more years at that point.

[Nathanial K'cansce]

Well, Anakin also told Padme that he is stronger than the Emperor and would overthrow him when the time was right, so that those two could rule the galaxy. So yea, no major love between Palpy and Anakin anymore.

In the RotS novel, it has Anakin/Vader realizing, when Palpatine said he had killed her in his own rage, that he finally knows what it means to be a sith - and has tasted the true treachery of the dark side/sith ways. "When he could have saved her, left with her and done away with everything, all he could do was think about himself." Basically, Vader only need to hear the 'truth' that he killed Padme, and his hatred for Anakin Skywalker, himself, was forever engraved in his mind.

[Darth McBain]

One thing I found interesting was how Anakin says his allegiance is to Palpatine, the Republic (Empire), and Padme. By telling Vader that Padme is dead, Palpatine eliminates Anakin's other allegiance and now Vader's allegiance is to Palpatine and his Empire. If Palpatine knew where Anakin's allegiances lay prior to his conversion to Darth Vader, then it probably didn't matter if he knew Padme was dead or not - by telling Vader that she died, he ensures that Vader has no allegiance to anyone but him.

[JMK]

I wonder how Palpatine knew that she was dead? I mean, the twins and the Frankenstein scene happen almost simutaneously, news doesn't travel THAT fast does it? I think Palpatine was lying to Vader, he probably didn't even know that she was hurt. How could he? Maybe he could see the future as all force sensitives can and saw that future with her.

No doubt Vader hates Palpatine as much as he hates himself. But Palpatine was his lifeline. He was the one who gave him power and would eventually be ripe for the taking. The dark side is a total dead end though. Once Vader ditches Palpatine and assumes control there's no one left to hate but himself. Good thing Luke brought out the good in him when he did.

[Rutabaga]

I think it's quite possible that Palpatine was lying, although some people might say he was taking a risk that Vader would eventually discover that Padme hadn't died and was still alive somewhere. But as you've all pointed out, Vader by that time was so entwined with Palpatine and dependent upon him that he might never have made that discovery anyways, or at least not for years and years. If the ending had been different and Padme had survived to be discovered years later, then it would have made Vader's hatred for Palpatine all the more intense.

For me, one of the most chilling moments in the movie is the point in the Frankenstein scene where Vader screams out the infamous "NNNNNoooooo!", crushing all the equipment around him with the Force...the grin on Palpatine's face is absolutely horrific, because he knows he's completely got Vader in his power now. That's why I really am disappointed that the "NNNNooooo!!!" has been made so much fun of by so many people. To me, it's a scream of anguish that's completely understandable, and really really sad. While Vader may have "murdered" Anakin Skywalker at the moment when he did the Force choke on Padme, the "NNNNoooo!!!" was Anakin's final dying breath. It means something very deep and intense but has become nothing but a joke to a whole lot of people :\ .

[Rutabaga]

BTW, are we all in agreement here that what we've suspected since TPM is true, that Palpatine is Anakin's father, so to speak? That Palpatine created Anakin? It seems to be the only way to interpret Palpatine's story of Darth Plagueus, when he says Plagueus was able to influence the midichlorians to create life. All that's missing from that line of dialogue is, just like I created you. So that throws an extra element into the mix, does Anakin realize this or feel this on any level, that Palpatine is his father/creator? And does that complicate his feelings toward Palpatine?

[Morgan Evanar]

Originally posted by Jinn Fizz
BTW, are we all in agreement here that what we've suspected since TPM is true, that Palpatine is Anakin's father, so to speak? That Palpatine created Anakin? It seems to be the only way to interpret Palpatine's story of Darth Plagueus, when he says Plagueus was able to influence the midichlorians to create life. All that's missing from that line of dialogue is, just like I created you. So that throws an extra element into the mix, does Anakin realize this or feel this on any level, that Palpatine is his father/creator? And does that complicate his feelings toward Palpatine? No, I don't agree at all. Palpatine is a master manipulator, especially when using words and emotion as weapons. His entire assention is built on deception. I see no reason why this would be any different.

[Rutabaga]

True...he's so masterful at manipulation that with him, it's often difficult to tell what is the truth and what is a lie.

Like, is it true that Darth Plagueus really discovered how to keep people from dying? And was it true that Palpatine could help Anakin to discover this power, to keep Padme from dying? Or is this a completely mythical power, one that never existed and can't exist, but was the perfect ploy to get Anakin's attention and suck him in irrevocably?

Despite its moments of clinkers, especially in the romantic dialogue, I do give great props to the screenplay that GL wrote this time around. He gave us much information to discuss and explore. This movie has a great deal of depth, and for that, I am grateful. :)

[JMK]

I think this is the ambiguous question that Lucas WANTS us to debate. He left the "I am your Father" thing up in the air for 3 years until Yoda told everyone the truth. Lucas intentionally did left that unanswered so that people would yap about it between films. Personally I think he may have done it again.

The 2 points of view are that he did infact influence the midichlorians to create A life, the other being that he was again tinkering with Anakin and playing off of his emotions. If what he said about Darth Plagueis is true, then he could very well be Anakin's 'pappy' so to speak. Looking at the scene where Anakin is dubbed Darth Vader, Palpy tells him that the ability to cheat death is something that only one person has achieved. Could he be referring to Qui Gon as well? Or is he lying about that? Maybe there is no power to keep people from dying at all?

What a clever salesman Palpy is. He tells Anakin that only through him he can learn how to keep Padme from dying, that he's the only one that can show him how to learn that skill. Then once he officially makes him a Sith Lord, he tells him he doesn't really know how to cheat death, that they'll have to work together to figure it out. Sneaky S.O.B. That's like when you read a salespaper and see this awesome rebate, so you buy it, only to learn that you have to mail away this stupid voucher and all you really get in return is the rebate amount in gift certificates.

[Tiberius Anar]

It is possible that Palpatine "knows" that Padme is dead. If one goes with what Jinn said about Anakin never seeing Padme move again after he choke held her, then Palpatine might have caught that image from his mind as he was writhing under the knife in the meidcal centre. He could have been playing on that. Not exactly a lie, not exactly the truth.

Also, on the topic of Palpatine creating Anakin an interesting Fan-Fic from another sight makes an interesting case.

http://fanfiction.galacticempire.co.uk/chosen-one.htm

[JMK]

I read that fanfic story...I thought it was fantastic until about 2/3 in. I read the whole thing, but I can't believe someone took the lineage of all these people THAT far.

[Oriadin]

What is everyones thoughts on who knows that Palpatine is Sidious?

Count Dooku has to know in my opinion, but what about the leaders of the seperatist groups? The trade federation for example? In TPM they talk to Sidious who orders them to begin landing their troups, they ask if its legal to which he says he will make it legal. How do they know he has influence over the senate?

[JMK]

I don't think anyone knows other than Dooku and Palpy's closest aides (Mas Amedda etc...). I'd like to think that Sidious swindled the senators in the same way he swindled Gunray. He told them that he had some sort of influence over the Chancellor, or he just straight up bribed them. Maybe a combo of both.

[Vega Van-Derveld]

I doubt the Trade Federation knew. They probably just thought that his being a Sith Lord and all gave him the power to influence the minds of the Chancellor and his Senators as he saw fit.

I definitely think it's an interest idea that the legend of Darth Plagueis being able to keep people from dying may not be true. It's yet another testament to Paplatine's brilliance as a master manipulator.

The saga might be over, but there's certainly a lot of questions still left unanswered.

[Doc Milo]

The Separatist Groups and General Greivous definitely do not know that Palpatine is Sidious. Both, in RotS, have made references to their failure to capture Palpatine. Gunray tells Greivous that he couldn't even prevent Palpatine's rescue, so he doubts Grevious' ability to keep them safe.

Count Dooku definitely knows. If you see the look on his face when Palptine orders Anakin to kill him, it's one of betrayal. So Dooku definitely knows.

I don't like the idea of Palpatine having been the one to create Anakin through the midi-chlorians, although it would be an ironic twist on the profecy. Profecies are oftentimes vague and many times come true in ways that people have not thought of -- and oftentimes can be self-fulfilling. I wish we would have had an official wording of the profecy, just to see how it can all fit together.

If Palaptine is the one to have created Anakin, then it does fit: The Sith, according to the Darth Bane legend in TPM's novelization, craved power so much that they eventually wiped themselves out, and the Jedi sat by and watched, only mopping up the mess after the Sith pretty much saw to their own extinction. Evil, as they say, turns in upon itself. Think of how ironic it would be for Palptine to create Anakin, knowing the profecy, thinking that this was a "false chosen one" in order to get the Jedi off guard, only to have his creation actually be the chosen one and bring balance to the Force -- albiet not in a way either the Sith or the Jedi would have guessed -- and thus be yet the ultimate example of the Sith turning upon itself.

While that idea has merit, I like the idea of a mystical chosen one by the Force itself. I like the idea of Palpatine lying to Anakin just to manipulate him. I think that idea fits in better with Palpatine's character. He is one who manipulates people and situations to his advantage. He would know of Anakin's being concieved by the midi-chlorians. He would know that Anakin has been told about him being the chosen one of profecy, and he would use that to his advantage to put Anakin in the state of mind for him to more easily corrupt.

[Oriadin]

Originally posted by JMK

Looking at the scene where Anakin is dubbed Darth Vader, Palpy tells him that the ability to cheat death is something that only one person has achieved. Could he be referring to Qui Gon as well? Or is he lying about that? Maybe there is no power to keep people from dying at all?

What a clever salesman Palpy is. He tells Anakin that only through him he can learn how to keep Padme from dying, that he's the only one that can show him how to learn that skill. Then once he officially makes him a Sith Lord, he tells him he doesn't really know how to cheat death, that they'll have to work together to figure it out. Sneaky S.O.B.

Actually, Palpatine simply says that Anakin could not learn that power from a Jedi, which is 100% true. Its not the Jedi way, I think the Jedi stance is when your times up, its up. The sith manipulate the force to benifit themselves, to stop someone from dying is purely for personal reasons. You want them alive. It seems like the ultimate sith power to me.

I think its perfectly plausable that a Sith has managed to do it before.

As for the whole Palpatine creating Anakin thing, I dont think there was enough in what Palpatine said to suspect him of creating Anakin. He said it was possible to create life, to the extent of creating a human with the biggest force potential ever seen? I dont belive so.

[JMK]

Palpatine did say that it was not possible to learn it through a Jedi. Maybe because the Jedi don't know, or maybe it's something that only a couple (like Yoda) know and WON'T teach. He told Anakin that he knew the power and used that to sway him to the dark side, then once he was successful, he told him that they'd have to uncover the secret. Seems to me like a wild goose chase. The more I think about it, the more I think that there is no power to prevent people from dying.

Going back to Palpatine creating Anakin, I think there is enough in the scene to at least ask the question. Like Doc said a while ago, the visuals at the Opera looks like a child being conceived. Lucas is notorious for having visual representations, now couple that with the entire conversation, and I think there's plenty of room to debate that. Do I think he created Anakin? No. I also prefer to think that the force chose Anakin for whatever reason. I can't get my head around the idea that if Palpy created him that he would have been discovered.

[CMJ]

I took a slightly different theory on that whole exchange. I actually think there's a good chance Darth Plagueis is the one that created Anakin. He was about 9 years old when TPM starts.

We don't know how old Palpatine is at the start of TPM, but I'd guess 50-55 or so(and yes I know in the EU he's about 600 or whatever, but GL doesn't pay any attention to that stuff most of the time). Plagieus creates Anakin's birth hoping to create the perfect apprentice/dupe the Jedi. If there's one thing we know about Palpy it's that he takes advantage of situations, even if he didn't necessarily plan them. Palpy would've been somewhat betrayed when he found out, knowing Anakin was meant to be his replacement. He kills Plagieus in his sleep.

That leaves roughly nine years for him to get involved in Naboo politics and find/train an apprentice. He might have even forgotten about Anakin, but once he senses Skywalker on Coruscant and hears of his heroics on Naboo, knows this must be the kid.

[JMK]

That's possible too, and I had considered that. I figured that Plagueis just wasn't as ambitious as Palpatine and may have let his guard down. Palpy kills him just after he creates Anakin and the rest is history.

[Oriadin]

Originally posted by JMK
He told Anakin that he knew the power and used that to sway him to the dark side, then once he was successful, he told him that they'd have to uncover the secret. Seems to me like a wild goose chase. The more I think about it, the more I think that there is no power to prevent people from dying.


I dont recall palpatine actually saying he had the power to do it...

I definitely belive that the power exists, it can be classed as the most selfish of acts, but at the same time you can be blinded into thinking your doing it for the other person. I dont belive the Jedi would have the ability to pull off something like that, but if it really does exist, then they are probably aware of it.

CMJ, your argument for palpatine creating anakin is a good one... I still feel its unlikely but you never know. Looks like GL did just enough for people to make up their own minds about it.

[CMJ]

Darth Plagueis was afraid to lose power and that was his undoing - was what Palpatine said...or something to that effect.

Maybe Plagueis distrusted Palpy, creates Anakin in hopes that the kid will eventaully kill Palpatine. Finding this out his apprentice murders him. A self fullfilling prophecy, and it also marries well with Palpy's statement at the opera.

[JMK]

Originally posted by Oriadin
I dont recall palpatine actually saying he had the power to do it...


Only through me can you achieve a power greater than any Jedi. Learn to know the dark side of the Force, Anakin, and you will be able to save your wife from certain death

I believe that's one of Palpatine's lines as he's seducing Anakin. It's pretty clear by that line that he's indicating that he knows the power to prevent people from dying.

[Oriadin]

I don't think so. I think he is saying its a dark side skill and only through palpatine will he be able to learn the ability. He certainly doesnt tell Anakin that he doesnt know how to do it, but to me he just makes it clear that he wont be able to learn that from a Jedi.

[Doc Milo]

I believe he carefully words his statements knowing how Anakin, in his state of mind, will percieve what he says. Although, he did say that Darth Plagueis knew the power, and taught his apprentice everything he knew. While this is not from the film, in the novelization he reveals to Anakin that he (Palpatine) was Plagueis' apprentice. Anakin is led to believe that Palpatine knows this power. Even without the novelization, Palpatine leads Anakin to believe things, even if his careful wording is parsed so delicately that he can plausibly deny ever saying what Anakin has inferred.

Now, I don't think the power exists, nor do I think the power to influence the midi-chlorians to create life exists. I prefer to believe that Palpy lied about both powers to make Anakin believe that (a) A Sith created him, and (b) The Power to cheat death is a Sith power. These things will ultimately seduce Anakin to the Dark Side.

Try this on for size: Palpatine, knowing Anakin is married to Padme, sends images through the Force to Anakin while Anakin is sleeping, making Anakin believe that he is seeing visions of the future, visions of Padme dying in childbirth; something he knew Anakin would believe because of Anakin's dreams earlier about his mother -- an event Anakin has shared with Palpatine. Anakin believes these images because of his mother's death, and vows not to fail again (the vow to his mother's grave is a good indication of where his state of mind would be) Palpatine then uses Anakin's state of mind, knowing his greatest desire is to save Padme, and would do anything to do it. The irony comes when Anakin's visions do come true becuase of Anakin's fall. Anakin's desire to save Padme leads him in a direction that destroys her. Had he done nothing, trusted the Force, and never followed Palpatine into darkness, his visions would most likely never come to pass. Palpy knows Anakin was supposedly concieved of the midi-chlorians, so he makes up that lie, then extends that power to being able to stop people from dying; the first lie is necessary because having the power to create life, it isn't far-fetched that the power to keep already living people alive would be far behind, and, instead of giving Anakin his hearts desire right away, which might make one suspicious, he disguises the true temptation with this fabricated story about how this power could be achieved (through manipulation of the midi-chlorians.)

I believe the only way to "cheat" death is the way Qui-Gon found, and taught to Yoda and Obi-Wan. The Sith power is destructive, not constructive....

[JMK]

I've had the very same scenario play out in my head, mostly because I believe that Palpatine definetly implies to Anakin that he has the power to stop people from dying. I think that if Anakin didn't totally believe that Palpy knew that power that he wouldn't have joined him.

[Doc Milo]

I just saw the movie again, and Palpatine, when Mace is reflecting his lightning back at him, does, indeed tell Anakin, "I have the power to save the ones you love."

[Rutabaga]

I think one of the most telling moments in the movie is the moment when Anakin is standing at the railing on Mustafar, looking out over the lava, after having slaughtered all the Separatists. And he's crying. Each time I see the movie, I'm so impressed with that moment, because it conveys so much with just one image.

Oh, and on a completely silly side note, speaking of the slaughtering of the Separatists, it was gratifying to see Nute Gunray finally die like the nasty ol' dog he is. ;)

[Doc Milo]

Just a question: I want to know if I heard this correctly. Right after Anakin slices off Mace Windus's hand, and Palpatine starts in again with the lightning, does he yell: "POWER! UNLIMITED POWER!"

[Nathanial K'cansce]

Yes, yes he does.

[Doc Milo]

I thought so.

On a side note: I just recently heard an old song by Metallica that I thought some of the lyrics actually fits Anakin/Vader...

"Never hunger. Never prosper.
I'm a slave to fear -- my master.
Struggle within triggered again
Now the candle burns at both ends.

Twisting under schizophrenia.
Falling deep into dimentia.

Old habits reappear.
Fighting the fear of fear.
Growing conspiracy
Everyone's after me.

Harvestor of sorrow.
Language of the mad.
Harverstor of sorrow."

[Darth Decepis]

Originally posted by Doc Milo
Just a question: I want to know if I heard this correctly. Right after Anakin slices off Mace Windus's hand, and Palpatine starts in again with the lightning, does he yell: "POWER! UNLIMITED POWER!"


You bet your sweet can he does.

[Figrin D'an]

Originally posted by Doc Milo
Just a question: I want to know if I heard this correctly. Right after Anakin slices off Mace Windus's hand, and Palpatine starts in again with the lightning, does he yell: "POWER! UNLIMITED POWER!"

Yeah, he does, which is, IMO, just more evidence that Palpy really was feigning his weakness at that point. He could have nuked Mace if he really wanted to. He was sealing the deal, pulling Anakin over the edge.

[JMK]

Originally posted by Doc Milo
I just saw the movie again, and Palpatine, when Mace is reflecting his lightning back at him, does, indeed tell Anakin, "I have the power to save the ones you love."

Thank goodness that's cleared up!


Originally posted by Doc Milo
Just a question: I want to know if I heard this correctly. Right after Anakin slices off Mace Windus's hand, and Palpatine starts in again with the lightning, does he yell: "POWER! UNLIMITED POWER!"

Yeah, he does, which is, IMO, just more evidence that Palpy really was feigning his weakness at that point. He could have nuked Mace if he really wanted to. He was sealing the deal, pulling Anakin over the edge.


Yep, my thoughts exactly...

[Nathanial K'cansce]

But doesn't Palpy also say, once Anakin was named Vader in the Chancellor's Office, "Only one has successfully used the power. I know, together, we can learn how to use this power"?

[Eluna Thals]

More or less:


To cheat death, is a power only one has achieved. But if we work together, I have no doubt that we will discover the secret.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Something about that I think Palpatine knew this power but he be a fool to tell Anakin because then what would stop Anakin from killing him. He had to have some leverage so he used this line about together we can do it.

[JMK]

Originally posted by Nathanial K'cansce
But doesn't Palpy also say, once Anakin was named Vader in the Chancellor's Office, "Only one has successfully used the power. I know, together, we can learn how to use this power"?

That's what I was saying. Palpatine told Anakin that he does know the power. Doc pointed out the exact quote. But like I said earlier, after Anakin crosses the line and lops off Mace's hand off and becomes a Sith Lord, Palpatine pretty much admits that they will have to work together to figure out that power.

[Doc Milo]

Right. Palpatine lied. He doesn't know the power. He told Anakin only to get Anakin to join him. He knows Anakin will do anything, even turn to the dark side, to save Padme. I don't think the power exists. He tells Anakin that only one has done it but together we will find the power only to keep Anakin on his side -- he has to give Anakin that "hope" that he will be able to save Padme because that's the entire reason Anakin turns dark. If he turns around and says, good, my boy, but the power to save Padme doesn't exist.... Anakin may just lop off Palpatine's head right there. Everything Palaptine does is to keep Anakin enslaved to him. When he was a boy slave on Tatooine, a chip was implanted to keep the slaves from escaping. This is Palpatine's version of that chip.

Now, the reason I believe Palpatine himself is the one giving Anakin the visions of Padme is because he tells Anakin when he first reveals himself that the has the power to save his wife from certain death. Anakin then responds with a surprised, "what did you say?" I don't believe Anakin told Palpatine that he was married to Padme, nor did he tell him about the visions of her death, yet Palpatine knows it all ... does he read it out of Anakin, maybe. But I think he's responsible for the visions. He finds out from someone he controls on Naboo about the wedding ceremony, he knows about Anakin's mother from Anakin himself, he sees that Padme is pregnant -- all he has to do is send an image of Padme dying to Anakin, and he knows how Anakin will respond, by being willing to do anything to save her. Even if in reality she is in no real danger. The only reason she became in danger was because of Anakin's actions....

[JMK]

Do you believe that Palpatine gave Anakin the visions about his mother? Some sources say that Shmi's death was planned by the Sith (i.e. they paid off the sandpeople to do it)? I think that it's entirely possible that they just didn't come along and kidnap her.

[Doc Milo]

That's possible, but there's really not enough evidence to support that. Since we know that Palpatine manipulates situations to his advantage, it works either way. Either he was responsible for the kidnapping/visions of Anakin's mother; or he was using the situation to his advantage regarding Padme.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I think the Sith paid off sand people to kill Shimi, and of course that gave him visions. Palpatine didn't have to send the visions when said event was just about to happen.

[General Devious]

Well here is the part that interested me. Anakin has a vision of Padme's death. He goes to great lengths to prevent it. Turns to the Dark side even. But his every effort to stop it, Makes it happen when he turns to the Dark Side. So when Palpy says its his Fault....

You bet his butt it is... Because his efforts caused her demise. What good is the future when seeing the future moves you to make such events happen... Dododododo Twilight Zone music inserted here... :D

[JMK]

Palpatine pretty much seizes every opportunity to get his work done. I think that Anakin's visions about his mother in pain were legitimately generated through his ability in the force, and not planted in any way from Palpatine. Whether or not the Sith somehow paid the Sandpeople to kidnap and torture Shmi is another story, but it doesn't really matter in the end.

Anakin definetly confided in Palpatine about Shmi's death, so the question now is did Palpatine influence Anakin's dreams at all? This is something we could talk about forever. Did Anakin's extreme fear of losing the one he loves generate the dreams, or were they implanted by the dark side? I don't know if we will ever find out.

[Nathanial K'cansce]

This whole visions of the future through the Force with Anakin brings a whole new light to the vision Luke had on Degobah, and Yoda's concern about it.

[JMK]

You know, the more we break down and analyze the movies, the more we find little things that don't quite make sense or have no explanation at all.

For example, after Luke has his visions on Dagobah of Luke and Leia in possible mortal danger, Yoda tries to prevent him from leaving to save them. That's understandable. It's in line with Yoda's advice to Anakin: 'train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose'. However, only seconds after that, Obi Wan says to Yoda 'That boy is our last hope' to which Yoda replies 'No, there is another.'

2 things:
1- Obi Wan HAD to know that Leia was just as force sensitive as Luke. Why would he assume that Luke was force sensitive and not Leia? They didn't test them for midichlorians. There was no reason to suspect that the boy has potential and the girl had none.

2- When Yoda says 'No, there is another', someone should have reminded him that 'the other' was in great danger - the very reason why Luke was leaving. Yoda's old, but he doesn't have alzheimers. Why reference the 'other' when you're so willing to let her die?

[Doc Milo]

On your first concern: Obi-Wan is dead. He's the one that sent Luke on the path to become a Jedi. Since he's dead, there would be no one to set Leia on the path.

On the second concern: Yoda said, "If you go, save them you can, but you will destroy all for which they fought and suffered."

So, it's possible that Yoda realizes that Luke might be "lost" if he goes, but he will save "the other."

I see two possiblities on Anakin's visions about Padme: The first is that these were legitimate visions based in the path that Anakin had already begun to follow (Dooku's killing was of the Dark Side) and thus, he's seeing what will occur should he fall to darkness. Of course, he doesn't understand that it is his descent into darkness that is the cause of such visions, and when Palpatine manipulates Anakin into believing the dark side has powers to save Padme, and Anakin decides to follow the dark side, his visions, of course, come true. The second possibility is that Palpatine implanted the visions to make Anakin believe that Padme's life was in danger, and then used Anakin's willingness to do anything to save Padme as his weapon of seduction.

I believe the latter, only because Palpatine knows too much about Anakin, his wife, and the visions (why else would he use such a tale as a seduction point) to be merely coincidence.

And again, I don't believe the power to influence the midi-chlorians to create life, or the power to save people from death actually exists -- I think Palpatine made it all up, just to seduce Anakin, to give Anakin what he desired most.