Musings about Obi Wan

[JMK]

2 thoughts popped into my head over the past couple days, so I thought I'd post them here.

• If only Obi Wan had finished Anakin off once he chopped his arm and legs off and he burnt to a crisp. I know Obi Wan said that he couldn't and wouldn't kill Anakin, but at that point, leaving him to suffer and die on the shores of the lava river was just inhumane! He should have just put him out of his misery. I don't think Anakin would have offered much resistance at that point. Besides, imagine how much trouble he would have saved himself and the galaxy if he had just finished what he started!

• I wonder what Obi Wan's initial reaction was (and when it was) once he learned that Anakin survived and had become this giant black suited dude roaming the galaxy in a blind rage, hunting down the remaining Jedi. Was he surprised? Was he glad to know that at least his old buddy was still alive and kicking...though he wasn't such a nice kid anymore? Was he ticked off at himself for not killing him when he had the chance?

I guess the cynicism Obi Wan has in ANH stems from the battle with his 'brother', and the later discovery that he survived the fight and was back, badder than ever.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Well if he had finished him off Palpatine would have had found another aprentice and there wouldn't have been anybody to kill him later on, so really I think the force willed him to do that
Also I don't think Vader was badder than Anakin. He was very limited in what he could do in that suit, IMO. That is why Palpatine wanted Luke so bad he needed a better aprentince who had use of his own limbs which Luke fit.

[Darth McBain]

Funny, I was actually thinking about these two things last night when I finished up the novel.

As for your first point, I was pretty much thinking that yes, it would have been much more humane if Obi-Wan finished off Anakin, but would it have saved the galaxy a lot of trouble? Who knows - with Vader out of the picture, Palpatine probably would have picked up another apprentice somewhere along the line. Heck, he might even have started after Obi-Wan...

And for the second point, I was thinking (could be off here) that Obi-Wan didn't actually know of Anakin's "resurrection" until he met him on the Death Star, so he wouldn't have had much time to think it over. All Obi-Wan would appear to know is that the Empire is alive and well, based on their actions on Tatooine, but I don't think he has any reason to suspect Vader survived. Of course, he may feel his presence in the Force, and he may have heard of Vader's exploits offscreen, so who knows... But I think that whether he thinks Anakin is truly dead or if he knew that he was reborn as Vader, I definitely think either way he feels like a failure. He failed to train him properly, he failed to prevent his fall to the Dark Side. And if he did know of his rebirth, then he failed the galaxy who now is under the tyrannical rule of Vader and Palpatine. Sorry - kinda rambling here...

[JMK]

I'm not so sure Palpatine would have found another apprentice. Where would this apprentice have come from?

But I agree, he did go after Luke so hard because Vader's uses were becoming limited, and perhaps Palpatine knew that Vader would eventually overthrow him.

[Arya Ravenwing]

Originally posted by JMK
I'm not so sure Palpatine would have found another apprentice. Where would this apprentice have come from?

Obviously he would have hunted down Mace Windu and given him an artificial hand and called it good. ;)

[Jedi Master Carr]

Well I figured some jedi survived the purge, one of them would have been a good candidate. As for Obi-Wan knowing that Anakin was still alive I figure either Qui-Gon told him when he communicated with him. Or he found about Vader from stories told in town somewhere. I am sure stories about Darth Vader would have surfaced.

[JMK]

I doubt he would have went after a Jedi. He wanted them all dead and dead. If Anakin died and he had issued the order to kill the Jedi, I don't think he could have changed the order to 'bring them all in, I'd like to have some interviews for my next apprentice'. I think if Anakin died, Palpy would have had to scour the galaxy for a force sensitive kid that he could brainwash, much like he did with Darth Maul.

[Jedieb]

Obi-Wan saved the galaxy by not finishing Anakin off. If the prequels have taught us anything it's that Palpatine is fairly adept at finding apprentices. With control of the galaxy it wouldn't have been too hard for him to find a force sensitive replacement. Think of all the force sensitive infants that the Jedi have been taking in and training. Palps can now have his pick of the litter. He could have warped a child from birth to be the perfect apprentice. The new apprentice would never have been as strong as Vader but it sure as hell probably wouldn't have chucked him down a shaft. At least not until after Luke was fried to a crisp.

I think Obi-Wan thought Anakin was as good as dead. I don't think he thought for a minute Anakin could possibly survive to become the black suited Vader we all know and love. Leaving him to roast was inhumane. I like that the novel gave you the impression that Obi-Wan wanted to get the hell out of Mustafar because he could sense Palps approach and knew he was no match for the Sith that had obviously just defeated Yoda.

[JMK]

I imagine that would have been tough to portray on screen. ;)

Maybe you're right...maybe by leaving Anakin alive he did save the galaxy. He may very well have still believed deep down that Anakin truly was the chosen one and eventually would fulfill the prophecy.

[CMJ]

Originally posted by JMK
But I agree, he did go after Luke so hard because Vader's uses were becoming limited, and perhaps Palpatine knew that Vader would eventually overthrow him.

I think it's more from Palpatine knowing Vader would overthrow him. That is afterall the way of the Sith. I'm sure Palps did the same to his ole' master.

I remember reading the ROTJ novelization about 10 years ago. Vader was concocting a plan to overthrow the Emperor even during the final duel with Luke, but got sidetracked when Luke defeated him. ;)

[Jedi Master Carr]

Vader though wasn't as powerful as Luke. Luke had more potential because Vader couldn't jump or move very well. He was too confined by that suit. I read an interview by Lucas were he said as much.

[Tiberius Anar]

Obi-Wan was very good at letting the force guide his actions. Maybe he didn't strike because the force willed him not to- in order that the prophecy would be fulfilled.

As for his reaction to Vader, I think from his "certain point of view" Vader was a completely separate individual from Anakin. The Anakin he knew and loved died that terrible day- even if his body remained, for want of a better word, intact.

[Rutabaga]

I've interpreted the whole thing from the get-go as Obi-Wan believing that death was inevitable for Anakin once he caught fire. While it might have been more humane for him to have finished Anakin off once and for all at that point, it seems that Obi-Wan was so emotionally shattered by that point that he simply could not have gone that far and taken that final step. The thing that's so magnificent about that scene is that it has forever changed and deepened my views and opinions on the Ben Kenobi we saw in the OT. To know that Obi-Wan carried so much pain, grief, and guilt with him for 20 years...oh my.

And to sidetrack just a little bit...Vader's NNNNOOOOO has become such the butt of jokes since the movie premiered, but I personally haven't found it funny at all...to me, it's incredibly tragic, and that one moment has helped to change and deepen my view of the Vader we see in the OT as well. At first, he'd been a stereotypical merciless, black-hearted bad guy that we just accepted at face value. But now that we know just why he is so merciless and black-hearted...oh my times two.

Anywho, I do like the speculation that perhaps the Force is what stopped Obi-Wan from taking that final step, because there was still a chance for the prophecy to be fulfilled, even if it had been misread in the first place.

As for Obi-Wan's "certain point of view" regarding Vader betraying and murdering Anakin...it all fits now. I read speculation at another messageboard that I agree with 100%. The point in ROTS where Vader murders Anakin is the moment when he raises his hand against Padme and does the Force choke on her. Anakin Skywalker truly ceases to exist at that point, and all that is left is Darth Vader. In retrospect, I've always been impressed by that moment in ANH when Ben starts to tell Luke about Vader...Alec Guinness did it perfectly, taking a deep breath and starting to talk in a well, here goes nothing kind of way. I'm not sure if GL directed him to do it that way or not (probably so), but whether or not is was a conscious decision at that point, it works beautifully.

[QuiGonJ]

Obi-Wan was not a killer. He was a Jedi. And it fits that he refused to do what Ani did to Dooku and Palpatine did to Mace, that is, he literally refused to kill an unarmed man.

Not sure this fits here, but I just had an epiphany this morning on the Duel of the Fates in Episode I involving Obi-Wan.

It just hit me, not only was it fast paced and exciting, it was the Star Wars Saga in a microcosm: The Dark Side won, and then it was up to Obi-Wan to pick up the fallen pieces and try to salvage things. In the immediate sense of TPM, it was by picking up Qui's saber after his fall from life and killing the immediate threat. In the larger sense of the Saga, it was by picking up Anakin's saber after his fall from grace and using it to train the one who would save Vader.

[JMK]

Originally posted by Jinn Fizz
I've interpreted the whole thing from the get-go as Obi-Wan believing that death was inevitable for Anakin once he caught fire. While it might have been more humane for him to have finished Anakin off once and for all at that point, it seems that Obi-Wan was so emotionally shattered by that point that he simply could not have gone that far and taken that final step. The thing that's so magnificent about that scene is that it has forever changed and deepened my views and opinions on the Ben Kenobi we saw in the OT. To know that Obi-Wan carried so much pain, grief, and guilt with him for 20 years...oh my.

And to sidetrack just a little bit...Vader's NNNNOOOOO has become such the butt of jokes since the movie premiered, but I personally haven't found it funny at all...to me, it's incredibly tragic, and that one moment has helped to change and deepen my view of the Vader we see in the OT as well. At first, he'd been a stereotypical merciless, black-hearted bad guy that we just accepted at face value. But now that we know just why he is so merciless and black-hearted...oh my times two.

Anywho, I do like the speculation that perhaps the Force is what stopped Obi-Wan from taking that final step, because there was still a chance for the prophecy to be fulfilled, even if it had been misread in the first place.

As for Obi-Wan's "certain point of view" regarding Vader betraying and murdering Anakin...it all fits now. I read speculation at another messageboard that I agree with 100%. The point in ROTS where Vader murders Anakin is the moment when he raises his hand against Padme and does the Force choke on her. Anakin Skywalker truly ceases to exist at that point, and all that is left is Darth Vader. In retrospect, I've always been impressed by that moment in ANH when Ben starts to tell Luke about Vader...Alec Guinness did it perfectly, taking a deep breath and starting to talk in a well, here goes nothing kind of way. I'm not sure if GL directed him to do it that way or not (probably so), but whether or not is was a conscious decision at that point, it works beautifully.

I totally agree with your sentiments here. Going back to my earlier point about Obi Wan's cynicism in ANH, I think there's even more to it than just his disbelief over what had happened. Throughout the prequels Obi Wan was the model Jedi. He was all about the code, all about doing his job, his duty. This carries right up to the end of RotS when Yoda tells him "Destroy the Sith, we must." Usually when given a task, Obi Wan would do that task because the council had instructed him to. This time his job was to kill Anakin, but he wouldn't do it. He was not going to do his duty this time, even though it was probably the most important task he had ever been given.

[Tiberius Anar]

To a certain extent, following the code is what gets the Jedi into trouble. I think that Yoda and Obi-Wan realise that, coming round to Qui-Gon's view of the force and how to act as a Jedi. Be in tune with the living force, disregard rule when necessary etc

To come back to the Chosen One prophecy- this may be part of it. Could it be that Anakin has to wipe out the dogmatic, rigid Jedi system along with the Sith in order to bring balance. The latter (as Doc pointed out elsewhere) just use the Force as a tool and does not let the Force use them and the former has too many rules that could prevent the Force from using the Jedi (shaky eg's: The rule about only accepting very young force users for training could have stopped Anakin being a Jedi or Luke from being trained)

[JMK]

One thing is for sure. The Jedi had gone unchallenged for so long, were so set in their Code, the Jedi way, that Palpatine may have been right in what he said to Yoda: "Your arrogance blinds you". The Jedi talked about being arrogant in AotC, and in RotS that arrogance comes to the fore and bites the entire Jedi Order in the rear end

Qui Gon was seen as a renegade because he was alert to the Jedi's own arrogance and thought that listening to the will of the force was the real only way to go. The rest of the Council may have been history's greatest group of overthinkers! ;)

[Doc Milo]

Yes, I believe the Jedi were out of balance as well, dedicating themselves more to man-made rules (the code) rather than listening to the will of the Force and following that. It is a sort of arrogance. Those man made rules assume that they know without question the will of the Force. And thus they stop listening. Again, sign of the blurring of the line that separates the light from the dark.

[JMK]

Going back to earlier thoughts of how much the people in the galaxy knew about the Jedi during ANH - specifically Luke - it becomes more and more clear that he knew absolutely nothing.

Obi Wan tells Luke that 'A young Jedi named Darth Vader, who was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil helped the Emperor hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights. He betrayed and murdered your father.'

I know that Obi Wan distorts this story with his 'certain point of view', but had Luke known anything about the Jedi he would have asked why a Jedi carried the title of 'Darth', a title reserved for the Sith. Of course people will argue that he didn't really turn to evil until he strangled Padme, and therefore was still a Jedi until that point, but I believe Anakin was dead as soon as he was named Darth Vader. His assault on the temple cements that in my mind.

[Tiberius Anar]

In the twenty(ish) years since his ascension, Palpatne couldn't have completely wiped the memory of the Jedi from the minds of the people, but he could have distorted it. I suspect that the Imperial propaganda machine spent a great deal of time depicting the Jedi as the universal foe- a sort of bogeyman with which to scare its subjects. The facts wouldn't have been clear to most people, let alone anyone raised under the Empire. Ignorane of the significance of "Darth" is understandable.

[Figrin D'an]

Originally posted by Tiberius Anar
Ignorance of the significance of "Darth" is understandable.


I tend to agree. I mean, beyond Yoda, Obi-Wan and Anakin/Vader, how many people at the time of Episode IV actually know that Chancellor/Emperor Palpatine is also Darth Sidious? A few at best. The Emperors personal hands, his body guards, closest advisors. Beyond that, does he ever tell the Senate or the public that he is actually the Dark Lord of the Sith? I'm thinking no. Even Grand Moff Tarkin in Episode IV seems ignorant to the Emperor's true identity, by saying that Vader is "... the last of their (Jedi) religion...". As far as the public is concerned, the only Darth they know of is Darth Vader, and they simply assume that "Darth" is part of his actual name rather than a title.

[Doc Milo]

Yeah. The Sith Order was supposed to be extinct for a millenia. I don't think the general public, or even the Senate as a whole, understand that there are Sith running around. Even if they do, there is no reason to believe that the general public know that "Darth" is a Sith title. The Jedi know -- Padme knows, because she's married to Anakin -- but beyond that? The Jedi would want their hunt for the Sith to be secret. They don't go around in public calling Count Dooku "Darth Tyrannus." I don't think the general population is aware that "Darth" is a Sith title.

[Rutabaga]

I truly like the brief moment of Obi-Wan picking up Anakin's saber after the end of the duel, before he walks away. It's so subtle that I'll bet a lot of people don't realize that's Anakin's saber he's picking up, not his own...but what a moment it is to realize that 20 years later he'll be handing that same lightsaber to Anakin's son with the words, "This was your father's lightsaber."

What memories are attached to that saber, we now realize.... :)

[Jedi Master Carr]

One thing about those who knew about Darth Sidious, how about Bail Organa? I am sure he knew that the Emperor was a sith lord, I don't think Yoda and Obi-Wan forgot to mention that to him. Of course did he tell anybody he might have kept it a secert as no major leader of the rebellion ever used the Sith word once in the movies. I am leaning that Bail didn't saying anything for what reason, I don't know.

[JMK]

Yeah I'm sure he knew that the Emperor was a Sith Lord. How could Obi Wan and Yoda leave that little detail out? As someone pointed out, even the Tarkin believes that Anakin was 'the last of their religion' so it would appear that it's another continuity issue that Lucas painted himself into a corner with, or Palpatine was somehow (though I believe it to be next to impossible) able to shelter his true nature from EVERYONE, including those closest to him.

[Doc Milo]

Well, the ANH novelization points to the Emperor as someone who was secluded away (after he takes over) so it's possible that he ruled only through fiat -- Vader was the eyes and ears of the Empire...

[Jedi Master Carr]

That would make sense the only question is did those in the rebellion know the truth? We know Bail did but did the others? It is impossible to say unless Bail kept his mouth shut on the subject for the next twenty years.

[JMK]

Sitting here at work on a dead friday afternoon, and another scenario pops into my head.

What if Anakin hadn't force choked Padme? What if she were conscious for Obi-Wan & Anakin's 'argument' before going at it?

Would she have been powerless to stop what was about to happen? Could Padme and Obi-Wan together get through to Anakin? Not that it mattered at that point, he had already done unspeakable things and Obi-Wan had to destroy Anakin.
But would Obi-Wan have been able to kill Anakin with Padme standing around watching?
Would she have let the whole thing go down as it did?

I think the one clear thing is that Anakin would have tried to kill Obi Wan regardless if she was awake or not.

Thoughts? Please help me kill off what's left of this friday....

[MercZ]

She probably would've, but I think that she would've been knocked out somewhere in the battle, so that she wouldn't interfere.