Reviews - Revenge of the Sith (Spoilers)

[Cat Terrist]

I'm too damn tired to spoiler mask, so you are hereby warned. Although I dotn think I''ll really drop any, but be warned anyway.

Was it great? No, it's not. It's got it's problems, for me was the silly overuse of CG and some moments where I think WTF, that's ridiculous. The one that sticks strongly in mind was the chase of Grevious by Obi wan on that beast of his. Ridiculous. Much too much CG and obviously touched up fight sceces which are far, far too fast and flashy. R2D2 occasionally was too animated.

The Wookies arent worth it. Really. Major downer there.

Now, be that as it may, ROTS is good. It's a damn sight better than either TPM or AOTC, it ties up the prequels to the OT really well, it explains Anakin's birth, it hints how a Jedi can return as a ghost (really cool bit actually), the humour was much better executed and R2D2 kicks major droid backside. The fights, while occasionally too fast, are definantly a step up and the big duel is the best.

Dialogue and acting... would you believe that's not a problem? Would you also believe Portman wasnt just a bloody piece of wood and actually sold her part well? Amazing! However, Palpatine is the show stealer. What an evil bastard he is revealed to be and well played too. Hayden Christensen is pretty good too.

Not going to rate it now nor am I finished, that's for tomorrow. For now, it's got me thinking and considering, it has more depth that you expect and poses some interesting questions too, especialyl about the rise of tyranny. A very good social comment.

Rest assured tho - you'll like it. You may even love it. It's no kids movie and it hasnt got a lot of compromise in it's darkness.

Goodnight, becaause 4 am is not a good time to be posting a review :)

[Yog]

WOW! I better plan for repeat viewings for this one :D

[JMK]

Thanks for the review Marcus! I imagine by the time you put yours up I'll be in the theater.

[Liam Jinn]

This coming from the man who supposedly wasn't even sure if he'd see the movie at all? ;)

[Darth McBain]

Sounds good. Only 11 hours and change to go... Don't know if I'll be too tired to post right after I get back - on the other hand I'll be pretty pumped up... Can't wait!!!

[JMK]

I may post a little something, but I'll more likely wait till tomorrow.

[Jedieb]

Don't know if I'll have the stamina, but I'll try to get a review up. Actually, what I'd really like to do when I get home is put is ANH in the DVD player and enjoy the show.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Yeah me too but that won't happen, probably will watch it this weekend and try to watch the OT to get the full effect.

[Ryan Pode]

I just got back from a 12:01 showing ... WOW.


I felt it started out slow but got great. The killing of Dooku seemed to sudden and the killing of jar jar ... well it didn't happen. :( My only dissapointments are: When does R2-D2 lose his ability to fly? and I wish they could have done a little more in-movie explanation of Grevious, as I did not see clone wars in its entirety.

[JMK]

Good lord. I haven't much to say at the moment...I feel a little too tired and shellshocked to say much, but that was certainly much more in line with what the prequels should have been!

[Shawn]

In short: I enjoyed the hell out of it. It was very, very close to perfect. I'll go into more details later but I absolutely loved the characterizations in the movie - especially Anakin and Palpatine.

[Morgan Evanar]

Originally posted by Shawn
In short: I enjoyed the hell out of it. It was very, very close to perfect. I'll go into more details later but I absolutely loved the characterizations in the movie - especially Anakin and Palpatine. Sup. I'm also too tired to explain why right now. I'll elaborate tommorow.

[JediBoricua]

I just sat down and wrote this on another forum:

First off, the movie itself. It's by far the best of the prequels (and I enjoyed both TPM and AOTC) and ranks on par with the best the OT has to offer. It has some pacing issues, especially in the beggining, but once Order 66 is issued, well you know. One of the best hour and a half of my life.

Palpatine, Obi Wan, Yoda and R2D2 stole the show. And Anakin's and Padme's acting was very good, miles better over AOTC.

I loved the duels, the comic relief was more appropiate and funny, and I enjoyed most of the 'romantic' storyline. The movie also have some problems with tidbits of dialogue, you know usual Star Wars stuff. And the pacing is kinda off in the beggining. The space battle did nothing to me and the Dooku duel seem well meh!. But my biggest gripe by far is that I felt Anakin's turning was a bit to 'fast'. His reasons were legitimate and understandable, yet he seem to make the jump at a breath's notice. One minute he is asking himself what he has done, the next he's kneeling before the Emperor. Nonetheless these complaints are minor and do not overshadow the GREATNESS of the movie.

As a fan, what can i say that can't be done? Believe the hype, you'll leave the theater wanting to watch ANH, you'll hope Anakin does the right thing, and even though you know what is going to happen you have this blind faith that someone will put an end to the madness, that someone will say STOP THIS, LOOK WHAT YOU ARE DOING TO YOURSELF.

I was emotionally affected. I've never cried at a movie. I cried like a baby, tears running down my cheek crying. Once Order 66 is issued my jaw started shaking and a knot in my belly formed. With every jedi killed I flinched a little bit harder. But the moment when all broke loose was when Padme holds Luke in her arms and calls him by name. The power of this scene blew me away. Padme screaming, Anakin screaming, Padme bright, beautiful, Anakin, dark, scared, horrible. This was it to me, the circle was complete. I have become one with Star Wars, I shall become a more powerful nerd than you can ever imagine.

Other moments that got me deep were the parallelism between the Throne Room in ROTJ and bits of the Dooku duel, and more important, the Mace-Palp duel. I couldn't help but smile when I could see the Emperor's skull, and how he beg for Anakin to save him. And the fact that both Mace and Palp fall to the abyss, just awesome! The Throne Room scene will never be the same again. Another time when I choked up big time was when Anakin told Obi Wan he hated him. That hurted and McGregor's face showed it. Also when Obi sees Anakin kneeling in front of Palpa...wow!

But the worst scene of all (the worst in a good way) has to be when Anakin chokes Padme. How can good people get so evil?

Quote me and take it to print, with this move GL makes Anakin into one of the greatest tragic heroes of all times, all mediums. He's right there with Hamlet, Julius Caesar, Oedipus, etc.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Heh same here I really liked it, the best of the prequels for certain. I will have to see it again though to appreciate it even more.

[Figrin D'an]

My detailed opinion will come later, when I'm more coherent. My initial knee-jerk reaction: best of the prequels easily, perhaps the best Star Wars film since ESB. That isn't easy for me to say either, because I have a special affinity for ROTJ. But at least initially, ROTS is a strong candidate to sit ahead of everything but Episode V. This is subject to change of course.


The only thing that felt wrong to me was the opening space battle, leading up to Obi-Wan and Anakin boarding Grevious' flagship. I think perhaps it is because everything begun so fast that it seemed rushed and confused. I'm guessing that was the point, but it still felt weird, at least on this first viewing. I think, too, it's because I was expecting the space battle to be more significant, rather than just a backdrop for the Chancellor rescue mission. It was very pretty, but in terms scope and effect, the best space battle in film history remains with ROTJ.

There were a few CG moments that were kinda funky, and I too felt the Wookies were wasted as cannon fodder, serving only as a plot device to get Yoda away from Coruscant, but other than those nitpicks, I can find little that I didn't like about it right now.


Excellent, excellent film. Nothing was held back this time around, and it pays big dividends for the audience.

[Liam Jinn]

I had a blast with this film, I'll post more when I see it again tomorrow.

[Yog]

My first impressions of this movie can be summarised like this (Lucas on the throne):

<img src=http://www.thegjo.com/smileys/respect.gif>

I am stunned. As a sci fi movie, its classic. As a Star Wars movie, its MASTERPIECE. All the pieces in the puzzle magically merged together to give a full picture. Its fully in line with the original trilogy. Even after the first viewing, I am certain it is better than Return of the Jedi. I am not sure yet how I should rank it versus Empire Strikes Back and A New Hope - that will require more viewings. But its position in the saga is up for debate. If some of you say its the best Star Wars movie in the whole saga, I will nod and say "I understand".

Thats how good it is. Incredible. I will post more coherent thoughts later, but if you have not seen this yet, I suggest you RUN to the ticket seller and set up a weekend event with your friends and family. This is what I dreamed of in 1999. Today it came true.

[Anbira Hicchoru]

I came to this prequel for Palpatine.

I stayed for Obi Wan. :cry

My two favorite characters of the saga. In retrospect, I didn't cry. Now that I think about it, I am. Everything Obi Wan endures, and in every way he somehow miraculously maintains himself and his dignity, it feels like a knife in my heart, twisting around. Seeing his tragedy is beyond heartbreaking

This one splits hairs with Empire, easily.

More thoughts later. I'm still in chills. I'm still in a morose depression about it all. This movie hurt me, in a good way.

[Loki Ahmrah]

I've already seen it twice. This is bad. And yet feels so good.

Revenge of the Sith is incredible!

[Doc Milo]

My first impression, after coming out of the theaters was that this film not only was a masterpiece on its own, it made the other two prequels better. I've spoken a lot about the "three plot" structure of the other prequels. In this one, those plots merged into one, and all the pieces fit together. The little boy afraid of losing his mother, the grown boy who does lose his mother, the grown battle-weary man afraid of losing his wife, and will do anything to stop it from happening, even lose himself (and in the process, lose that which he turned to keep.)

I hate ranking Star Wars movies against each other, which was my favorite, why, etc... I see them as one long movie, and RotS did exactly what it was supposed to do. It tied the PT with the OT very nicely. Gone are the nit-pick continuity questions (save one: Leia's remembering her real mother) And that one is not all that tremendous. Oh, we might get some people asking why doesn't Obi-Wan remember R2-D2 and C-3PO in ANH, but the truth is, this isn't a continuity question because we really don't know that Obi-Wan doesn't recognize the droids and just keeps that knowledge hidden. But unless you are the nit-pickers of nit-pickers, the continuity questions have pretty much been resolved. I can't wait to see 1,2,3,4,5,6 and watch how it all ties together into that one big story!

Watching Anakin's transformation paralleled against Padme giving birth was incredible! IMO, this film was emotional, disturbing, comical, fun, and exciting.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Originally posted by Anbira Hicchoru
I came to this prequel for Palpatine.

I stayed for Obi Wan. :cry

My two favorite characters of the saga. In retrospect, I didn't cry. Now that I think about it, I am. Everything Obi Wan endures, and in every way he somehow miraculously maintains himself and his dignity, it feels like a knife in my heart, twisting around. Seeing his tragedy is beyond heartbreaking

This one splits hairs with Empire, easily.

More thoughts later. I'm still in chills. I'm still in a morose depression about it all. This movie hurt me, in a good way.


I am with you there, I really felt for Obi-Wan and I thought Ewan did a great job the best job he has done in the prequels.

[Darth McBain]

I'm posting this without having read other reviews in this thread yet, so if I'm covering old ground, whatever... I'll just spoilerize the whole thing in case you don't want to read...



Overall, I found the movie to be very, very good. That's not to say perfect, but I do think it was the best of the prequels.

I guess I'll start with what I didn't love so much - basically, the dialogue in the opening 15-20 minutes of the film. I thought it felt forced and unnatural, almost as if the actors were just reading from the scripts. I thought that some of the dialogue delivered by Obi-Wan just didn't work for me. I thought Ewan was a very versatile, strong actor in the first 2 movies, but he just didn't do it for me in the opening of ROTS. Also, the sequence with R2 against the Super Battle Droids didn't work too well for me.

The other thing I didn't love was the amount of planets involved in this one - especially with the Order 66 sequence. In all of the other episodes, I felt somewhat of a "connection" with the planets. You kinda know what Hoth, Endor, Naboo, Geonosis are all about - in this one, all of a sudden they're jumping to Felucia, Mykeeto, and a bunch of other worlds just for 15 seconds to see a Jedi die. I just found it confusing and somewhat unnecessary. And what was the deal with that psychadelic flower-world (was that Felucia?).

I didn't like that they left the Sifo-Dyas thread dangling - who was this guy??? I just get the feeling that they screwed up in Ep. II by bringing this guy into the picture and then never explaining who he was or why he ordered the army.

Lastly, I think some of the pacing and editting could have been a little better. The editors had their work cut out for them, because there was a lot of ground to cover in this episode and it would take a spectacular editting job to make it not seem to be jumping all over the place. Unfortunately, I did get that feeling occasionally, that we were jumping too often between storylines and threads.


As for the good...

Palpatine was great. I loved his character, and I thought Ian McDiarmid did a fantastic job. I think he brought a lot of depth
to the character, and he is evil to the core.

Order 66 was well executed. While I think it jumped around a little bit, it was fascinating to see all of the Jedi getting wiped out. The attack on the Jedi Temple was also well done.

Hayden Christenson did a much better job of acting in this one than in Ep. II. Not that he'll win any Oscars, but I enjoyed his performance a lot more. Natalie Portman also delivered a solid, satisfactory performance - I was glad to see an improvement in her acting over AOTC.

The duels were great. Obi-Wan/Vader would have to be my favorite of them - fast, intense, and long. Dooku vs. Obi-Wan and Anakin was good as well, I thought it was a significant improvement over their skirmish in Ep. II. Palpatine vs. Yoda was awesome (although I didn't love the editing when it came to Palpatine chucking the Senate Pods around. We knew he'd be doing it from the trailer, but as it was presented in the movie, one minute their dueling with sabers, then they cut away, and then the next thing you know, pods are flying around. I wished they would have made it more continuous, like maybe Palpatine realizing that he can't defeat Yoda simply in a saber-duel, so then he reaches out and starts pelting Yoda with the pods.) And the Mace/Palpatine battle was really good too - although I'm surprised the other three Jedi bit the big one so quickly in that duel.

Grievous was cool, as were the Magna-droids. I liked the whole Utupau sequence where Obi-Wan dealt with him. I have to admit, that as cool as the Boga was, it did feel somewhat unnecessary for Obi-Wan to be riding it, but it was still cool. I loved the sound it made.

The declaration of the Empire. I never knew how Palpatine could "sell" turning the Republic into the Empire and end up as Emperor, but son of a gun if he didn't do it, and do it with style.

Anakin's fall. I personally thought they did a good job with this. I was worried that they wouldn't be able to sell it - this angst-ridden, but for the most part okay, kid turning into Darth Vader. I think they did a good job showing just how many directions the poor kid was being pulled in and how conflicted he was. I loved how they showed him down on the lava bed. That's why this was PG-13, and I loved it. If you're gonna show him turning to Vader, you can't sugar-coat it. When he lost his legs and other arm, it was awesome, but then when he caught fire - WOW... Very cool. As for rebuilding him into the mechanical Vader, I really liked that sequence, especially as it was intercut with the birth of the twins. Did anyone else feel bad for Anakin when they were lowering the mask onto him? It felt, for me, like he was now going into a prison that he would never escape. The only thing I didn't like about that sequence was the big "NOOOO" that Vader let out at the end - way too cliche, but I won't let that spoil the rest of the sequence for me.


So overall, I think I'd probably give it maybe a 8/10. (For some reference, I give TPM 6/10, AOTC 7/10, ANH 10/10, ESB 10/10, ROTJ 9/10). It wasn't perfect, but what Star Wars movie is. It was most definitely a great way to wrap up the prequels and bridge into the originals.

It's been a great ride - hard to believe it's over...

[Darth McBain]

Originally posted by JediBoricua
The power of this scene blew me away. Padme screaming, Anakin screaming, Padme bright, beautiful, Anakin, dark, scared, horrible.

Nicely said - and yes, that was a great scene...

[Ishan Shade]

Okay...my turn.

It certainty was the best of the prequels, I’ll give it that. It had its good moments, and it’s bad….but I think it handled Anakin’s turn to the dark side very well. The scene with Anakin on fire and that look on his face as he says, “I HATE YOU!” to Obi-Wan was awesome. Palpatine defiantly stole the show, incredible job by Ian McDiarmid.

BUT.

Like I’ve always said – I think technology has ruined these prequels. Way too many special effects and jumping around. While this one was more character driven it still didn’t match any of the OT as far as storytelling/dialogue/acting.

What I wouldn't give for George Lucas to have made these prequels with the old 1979 technology, I think if he had the films might have capitalized on what made Star Wars so great 30 years ago - characters and story.

[Shawn]

As I said earlier: I loved Anakin's and Palpatine's characterizations. From AOTC, it seemed that Anakin was going to fall to the Dark Side simply because he was a whiny little brat who didn't want to follow orders.

Instead, ROTS showed how much he had developed. There was still a trace of arrogance in him, but he did an admirable job as a Jedi. Instead of him and Obi Wan being at each other's throats constantly, they were genuinely close in this movie. Finally, we got to see this "great Jedi" that we've heard so much about.

When it came to his fall - wow. Again, I had expected his fall to simply be Palpatine convincing him to turn against the Jedi. Instead, as soon as Palpatine started talking about the Dark Side, Anakin pulled his saber on him. And then he dutifully reported his findings to the Jedi Council. Totally not what I was expecting. Instead of turning because he was an impatient teenager who wanted more power, he turned because he was willing to sacrifice everything about himself to protect those he loved. I really didn't think Lucas still had it in him to write complex character motivations.

Palpatine: I was surprised that they seemed to nail one point from the EU; I had always read that Palpatine created the Empire not out of evil intent, per se, but because he honestly believed that the Galaxy needed order to be peaceful, and that he was the only one who could do it. That definitely came across when he cooed about "finally creating peace" to Anakin.

Where ESB was dark because the heroes were defeated at every turn, ROTS was dark because it was very tragic. Heroes sold their souls, or were slaughtered and called insurgents.

The complaints I have are very minor, and I kind of look forward to buying the DVD so I can do some edits myself. In particular, I didn't like:

* R2D2's scene at the beginning where he spews oil and lights the droids on fire. It's too slapstick, and I still don't like R2 flying.

* The scene between Anakin and Padme: "Only because I love you" "No, it's because I love you!" Ug.

* Anakin's outburst at the Council. Given how much he's grown as a character, this seemed a step backwards for him. Plus, he pretty much goes over the same thing afterwards with Obi Wan. It makes much more sense that he'd bite his tongue and complain about it later to his master.

* "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!11"

And I think that's pretty much it. None of these things ruined the movie for me, but I think it would have been a much smoother experience without them.

[Nathanial K'cansce]

Anakin's outburst at the Council. Given how much he's grown as a character, this seemed a step backwards for him. Plus, he pretty much goes over the same thing afterwards with Obi Wan. It makes much more sense that he'd bite his tongue and complain about it later to his master.


I agree with that. The movie made him seem power hungry and like a brat(in that sequence) - like you said, Shawn, a step back from where his character had evolved. I think the book delt with that better - in that the reason behind Anakin wanting to be a Jedi Master in rank was to access data-files in the Jedi Archieve (sp?) that only Masters had access to. Mainly, those about the Dark techniques that Palpatine was talking about - a way to save Padme. When the council told him "you will not be a Master," he got upset because that was his only key to saving Padme, at the time. I think Lucas should have handled that better in the movie.

So, my question... Anyone see the Millenium Falcon? ^__^

[Shawn]

I sincerely hope that's a deleted scene included on the DVD.

[Dasquian Belargic]

I think everything I wanted to say has been said. Basically, I loved it. I laughed, I cried. Wonderful!

[Morgan Evanar]

Originally posted by Nathanial K'cansce
So, my question... Anyone see the Millenium Falcon? ^__^ At that point the YT-1300 was CEC's top flight light freighter.

[Rognan Dar]

What to say what to say...

I loved this movie. I'm going to be seeing it many times more to just totally grasp everything that is in it. Like others have said, its not perfect, and it has some bad moments and scenes and other stuff...but it sure kicked butt!

One thing that I really didn't like was the wookie battle. In my mind, it was pointless. Sure it was cool to see wookies and see them fight...but really what did they do? They flew around and shot the droids that were coming by water? What was that all about? I think they should have done a ground/tree battle with the droids which would have been more of the wookies suroundings and could have been a cool scene. Now, I said this to a few other people and they thought that they didn't do that because they didn't want another Endor battle scene.

Also, with the wookies, what about Chewbacca? All he was there was a reference. It still didn't explain anything about him and you didn't see him fight at all. I was sad about that. I wanted to see arms flying and heads rolling.

Everything else is minor and already talked about. The start was kind of hard to get into. Especially after waiting in line for this movie. It just suddenly in your face and I didn't know how to take it. They even it out as they go. But...I personally thought the whole thing was rushed. At times you have weeks going by really quickly with only a shot off people. And then there was the duels that were much longer then most other scenes. Now, dont get me wrong, I loved the fight scenes. It was just hard to go from real quick jumping around to long, drawn out fights.

The performance of all the actors, I thought, have improved drastically. Portman did really well, I thought I was going to cry a few times. She added so much to the feelings of Anakins downfall that it did hurt to see him fall so far.

I was surprised that Anakin was trying really hard to keep to the Jedi Code. He knew better and tried to do better but he was such a wreak that he just lost all control.

Oh, another thing that I thought sucked was how they down played all the villians. I mean, in AOTC Dooku kicks both Obi-Wan and Anakins butt. And he did it again with Obi, which was a shame. Being tossed around like a rag doll. And Grievios was just...nothing. I watched the clone wars DVD and in that, Grievios took on several Jedi and whooped them all. Yet it only took one to take him down. They could have done so much with him and I was hoping they would.

All in all I thought it was the best movie I have seen in a long time. And comes close to the best Star Wars movie ever. But then its really hard to compare them all. With this movie, all the others are now complete, giving the whole saga a bigger feeling and greatness.

[JediBoricua]

My complaint about Anakin's turning is not the motive, nor the path he takes, is just how he goes from saying What have I done after killing Mace, to "I accept you as my master".

Maybe a few more lines by Palpatine to seal the deal. Anyway, this is a very minor problem.

Well about 14 hrs have passed since the movie ended and I'm still emotional. Reading some of your posts gave me goosebumps, and talking with my g/f over the phone about some scenes created a lump in my throat.

The look Padme gives Anakin when he chokes her has been burned into my brain. I will be seeing that forever.

And that's just one scene.

[Anbira Hicchoru]

Originally posted by JediBoricua
My complaint about Anakin's turning is not the motive, nor the path he takes, is just how he goes from saying What have I done after killing Mace, to "I accept you as my master".

Maybe a few more lines by Palpatine to seal the deal. Anyway, this is a very minor problem.

Well about 14 hrs have passed since the movie ended and I'm still emotional. Reading some of your posts gave me goosebumps, and talking with my g/f over the phone about some scenes created a lump in my throat.

The look Padme gives Anakin when he chokes her has been burned into my brain. I will be seeing that forever.

And that's just one scene.

Killing Mace was the proverbial point of no return. After this point, there was no turning back for him, even if he wanted it.

[Nathanial K'cansce]

Originally posted by Morgan Evanar
At that point the YT-1300 was CEC's top flight light freighter.

Don't get technical with me! I saw what I saw. *puts on blinders* :p

[Shawn]

http://img59.echo.cx/img59/110/ep3019mz.th.jpg (http://img59.echo.cx/my.php?image=ep3019mz.jpg)
KOTOR 2's Sith Lord about to kill a couple of Trekkies who stumbled into the wrong theater.

http://img290.echo.cx/img290/1949/ep3026ks.th.jpg (http://img290.echo.cx/my.php?image=ep3026ks.jpg)
Inside the theater.

http://img287.echo.cx/img287/3360/ep3030yf.th.jpg (http://img287.echo.cx/my.php?image=ep3030yf.jpg)
There were several more newsvans out front, but here's a couple of them.

http://img287.echo.cx/img287/402/ep3045yv.th.jpg (http://img287.echo.cx/my.php?image=ep3045yv.jpg)
Vanity plate on the car parked next to us.

http://img290.echo.cx/img290/9630/ep3059ik.th.jpg (http://img290.echo.cx/my.php?image=ep3059ik.jpg)
And the ticket booths.

[Morgan Evanar]

Originally posted by Anbira Hicchoru
Killing Mace was the proverbial point of no return. After this point, there was no turning back for him, even if he wanted it. Because Obi-wan truly loved him, he gave him one last chance, but I agree. Killing Windu was the end.

[JMK]

Well at this point I think everything good and bad about the movie has been said so I'm not going to post all of my thoughts as there seems to be quite the consensus here on what worked and what didn't.

What did work for me:

Anakin's motivations. Brilliant.
Palpatine is the devil. Superb.
Anakin's rage once he's on Mustafar...uncontrollable!

What didn't work for me:

Kashyyyk = Cash-in. Thanks for (next to) nothing George. :p
The space battle - I was hoping for more.
And perhaps my biggest beef - Padme's reason of dying. Now I'm not a mother, but maybe the mothers here could answer: doesn't your maternal instinct and love for your children urge you to soldier on and be there for them? I find her 'losing her will to live' pathetically weak. I'll hear from those who'll say "Her heart was broken...Anakin was her life....she had nothing to live for" boooohoooo! No way. I agree she needed to die, but it should have been from some sort of injury.

That's it for me now...it's hard to say where I rank it at the moment, but I will see it several more times! :)

[CMJ]

I was a slacker and saw it this afternoon. Got back home about 30 minutes ago. All I can say is brilliant.

[Shawn]

Originally posted by JMK
What didn't work for me:
[spoiler]And perhaps my biggest beef - Padme's reason of dying.I'm actually planning on making a fan edit of the film, if only for my own viewing pleasure, and that's one of the lines I'd like to cut. Sometimes, mothers just die in childbirth. If you really want to push it, you could just say that she was fated to die in childbirth and there was nothing he could do about it.

Here's something I'd like some input on: What's everyone's take on Palpatine's little monologue where he implies that either he or his master was the one responsible for Anakin's birth? In case anyone doesn't remember, he made a comment about how his master could create life by manipulating the midichlorians.

I'm half tempted to believe that he was lying, trying to lead Anakin to believe that he was the child of the Dark Side - possibly even to have paternal feelings towards Palpy when he learned of his true nature.

[Figrin D'an]

Alright, time for my more in-depth review.



Originally posted by Anbira Hicchoru
This movie hurt me, in a good way.


Charley pretty much nailed my feelings in this simple statement. There were several moments that were not easy to get through, and I could feel a lump building in my throat over the course of the final 10 minutes of the film. It was thrilling, dynamic, exciting, yet heartwrenching at the same time. I will never again be able to view Darth Vader in the same way. Before, he was a man whom we knew turned to evil and was in his final moments redeemed by his son. Now, Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader is a figure of tragedy, someone who so desperately wanted to do the right thing, but his love for his wife and unborn children compelled him down a path of unfortunate decisions. Sidious manipulated him without flaw, and ultimately turned "the good man" we heard Obi-Wan speak of in the original trilogy into the twisted mechanical montrosity that would forever scar the galaxy.


Most of what I have to nitpick about has already been mentioned:

- the underuse of the Wookies

- less than ideal amount of information about Qui-Gon learning how to take on spirit form

- Anakin's outburst when being denied the rank of Master.

- Grevious was well done, but after watching him in action in the Clone Wars cartoons, he seemed so much weaker in the film. I'm willing to chalk this one up to a) the cartoons being exaggerated as part of their style and b) making the point that Obi-Wan is at the peak of his powers and is simply a better in melee combat than the droid general.

- CG was, as usual, really spiffy, but it was overused in spots (ie. the beast Obi-Wan rides when pursuing Grevious was unnecessary. It could have just as easily been a speeder of somesort.


One of the major positives I noticed right away, even in the confusion of the opening space battle, was the major improvement in the dialogue. It was far more witty than TPM or AOTC, was more cutting in many spots, and had far less clunky moments than the other two prequels. In particular, I felt the banter between Obi-Wan and Anakin was much more natural and free-flowing. There were a couple of cheesy lines, but that is to be expected... it's still a Star Wars film after all. ;)

The story itself was as close to perfect as it could have been. GL hit a home run with this one. Either he saved the best for last, or he had some outside input this time around, because I can't imagine the film flowing any differently having finally seen it. There was still a couple of scene transitions that seemed to happen too quickly, but this is a really, really minor nitpick, and it didn't detract from the film significantly.

Acting/Characterization: Ewan McGregor and Ian McDiarmid steal the show IMO, but Hayden Christensen and Natalie Portman hold their own. Jimmy Smits was admirable as Bail Organa... nice to see him have some more screen time. The character portrals of the major participants were excellent overall.


Some other random thoughts:



- the look on Dooku's face when Anakin in one swift move severs both of the Count's hands and takes his lightsaber is so perfect. At that moment, we know Anakin is the most skilled Jedi in the Order, save perhaps Yoda himself. And Palpatine calmly telling Anakin "Kill him", all while smiling, was classic.

- Anakin's reaction to learning Palpatine's true identity was perfectly written and executed. He tried to do the right thing by telling Windu and the council. He even tried to do the "right thing" by upholding the Jedi Code and urging Mace to not kill Sidious, to let him live to stand trial. But Sidious, just as he always has, played the situation masterfully and got everything he wanted... a dead Jedi Master and a new powerful apprentice.

- My respect for Obi-Wan Kenobi as a character has never been higher. Perhaps he didn't train Anakin as well as Yoda could have, or as well as Qui-Gon may have been able to, but as Anakin really did grow into "the good man" that he was supposed to be before turning to the Dark Side, the pain and betrayal that Obi-Wan must have felt would have crushed a lesser man. Obi-Wan really did love Anakin like a brother, and in that final scene in which Anakin burns from the heat of the lava, one cannot help but feel for them both. Anakin, a once good Jedi, was now a ruined shell of his former self, and Obi-Wan, his mentor, had to watch knowing that , even though he had no choice, he was responsible for destroying his one time friend. Yet, like Charley said in an earlier post, Obi-Wan still manages to hold himself together and be the true Jedi that he must.

- watching Palpatine poison Anakin's mind over time was a thing of morbid beauty.

- the intersplicing of Padme giving birth and Anakin being reborn as Darth Vader was some of best editing in any of the Star Wars films.




There is more I want to say, but I'm still overwhelmed by much of it. I plan on going again on Saturday. ROTS was an exhausting experience for me, but in a very good way. This is why the prequels were made... to get to this film. I enjoyed TPM and AOTC, and I will likely have a greater appreciation for them now because of ROTS, but this Episode was the ultimate payoff. And payoff it did. There will always be some fans and critics that won't be satisfied, for a variety of reasons. For this fan, however, "Revenge of the Sith" was Star Wars at it's very finest. It's up there with Empire in scope, depth and emotional impact.

As little as a few months ago, I wasn't sure how ROTS would turn out. I was cautiously optimistic, but was also afraid that it could be a disaster. I have never been so glad to have been completely wrong in my fears. Episode III is an experience, not just a film.

[Shawn]

Anakin's reaction to learning Palpatine's true identity was perfectly written and executed.This was possibly my favorite scene from the entire movie, because I really did not expect that. I honestly thought Anakin would have said something along the lines of "Oh, you know the Dark Side? Cool, teach me. :cool" Instead, we saw that he really had become a true and noble member of the Jedi Order. He was hurt by the betrayal of his friend, but did what needed to be done.

[Ishan Shade]

However judgemental I may have been in my previous review I do have to mention one scene that blew me away:

The scene of Luke being given to Owen & Beru, and how they hold the child against the backdrop of the 2 setting suns of Tatooine just like Luke looks onto in ANH. Very, very emotional moment to me.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Overall I agree with Figrin's comments, you summed up the best parts of the movie very well, I don't think I could do a better job :) I do have some things I want to bring up first
about Palpatine talking about Darth Palagris (not sure if that is spelled right) was that his former master? I thought so because he gave a bright smile when he mentioned he was killed by his student. I thought he must have did it. I do think Palpatine was trying to use that story to get to Anakin maybe hint hey I created you, but I am sure he was lying through his teeth.
About the Qui-Gon mention, I do as well wish there would have been more to that, I understand that Liam Neeson actually recorded some dialog. I think that should have been added in, I hope at least it is on the DVD. Okay about the Wookies, yeah I was slightly disapointed about them too, I wish they would have shown more, I think there is several deleted scenes of them including one where they fight clonetroopers. I hope that makes the DVD as well.
I want to mention the acting, I though Hayden did a great job when he fell to the dark side. He played the evil part so well that it was close to perfection. I also thought Portman did the best job in the prequels, especially the last half of the film. Her scenes became very emotional. And I love her last line where she tells Obi Wan "There is still ...." Hope is what she was going to say that line leads to the next film perfectly. I am going to see it again tomorrow, mainly try to see if there was anything I missed and get an even better opinion of the film overall.

[Anbira Hicchoru]

To all of the midichlorian = I am your father rot, I don't think its anything close to that.

I think that there is in fact more truth than lie in Sidious's secret trainings from Darth Plagueis the Wise and I further believe that The Emperor's "scarred and deformed" explanation is a big fat lie. He's old. How old? If I'm taking a stab at it, I'm saying perhaps as old as Yoda himself. He's cheated death and turned himself into corruption incarnate

[Jedi Master Carr]

Well I wish we could find out more about Sidious/Palpatine, I am hoping for a novel at least to explain him some more. Like you I wonder how old he is. I think the whole thing with the lighting was a trap into trying to get Anakin to help him so he could get him to fall to the darkside.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Wow.

Revenge of the Sith is... amazing.

The birth of the twins Luke and Leia, and the death of Padme of a broken heart brings both hope, and sadness. At the end we're left with visions of the babies going to their new homes on Alderaan and Tatooine, laced with their musical themes from the OT. The title "A New Hope" never made more sense than it does now, after watching Revenge of the Sith. The score is used masterfully by John Williams, who really has MADE the Star Wars Saga.

Anakin's motivation to turn to the Dark Side was fed by Palpatine's twisted truths and lies. He told Anakin that perhaps together they could discover the way to save Padme, but of course all Anakin (blinded by love) could hear was that now he could have the tools to save his wife. The hints at Palpatine's training was cool too.

The seeds of the Rebeliion were firmly planted with Bail Organa, who came through as a great character just when we needed someone to see through the madness of Palpatine's rule. Padme's line "So this is how democracy falls: to thunderous applause." was fantastic. Showing how the Republic was twisted in to the Empire was great.

The movie broke my heart - I cried several times. The murder of the younglings was heartbreaking.

Nitpicks: Only a few! I did not like the animation of the clone troopers at several points. When they had their helmets off on the planet they looked fake. I know the technology is there to make them look better than that! If LotR can have CGI armies that look believeable, surely we can have a few helmetless clonetroopers wandering around that look real. The lighting was wrong on the faces - at least at one point. I think it was Commander Cody was lighted up on one side of his body, but shadowed on that side of his face. Terrible - but it didn't ruin the movie. The Boga was also a little iffy, but I loved the sound it made - the sound people did a great job.

Loved: Artoo going up against super battle droids. Threepio's reaction to his upcoming memory wipe (which i predicted!!!). Padme pleading with Anakin to turn from the path he was going down ("you are going down a path I cannot follow!"). Anakin's anger at her supposed betrayal of him to Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan's pain and sorrow over Anakin, and the moment where he leaves Anakin for dead and picks up his lightsaber (it shows up again in ANH when he gives it to Luke). Yoda telling Obi-Wan that he has more training for him to do in exile on Tatooine - because Qui-Gon had learned how to return as a Force spirit (unfortunately we never see Qui-Gon as a spirit). Yoda fighting the Emperor and holding his own, and his sadness that he was not able to finish it.

Oh heck, I loved the whole movie.

[Shawn]

Originally posted by Anbira Hicchoru
and I further believe that The Emperor's "scarred and deformed" explanation is a big fat lie. He's old. How old? If I'm taking a stab at it, I'm saying perhaps as old as Yoda himself. He's cheated death and turned himself into corruption incarnate Keep in mind that all of Sidious's appearances via holograms through episodes 1-3 have shown him scarred and deformed. I think the lightning may have broken through his facade, nothing more.

[JMK]

I think Palpatine was playing possum the entire time. He feigned weakness to hasten Anakin's decision. He revealed his true self as he saw fit.

[Darth McBain]

Absolutely, JMK. I think Palpatine could have handled Mace entirely on his own - but was feigning weakness to force Anakin to choose his destiny

[JediBoricua]

Yes.

He killed three full fledged Jedi Masters in less of a second. Although Mace is the superior fighter of the four, I bet Palp could have killed him without much trouble. He needed Mace alive to lure Anakin. He had a bond with the kid and played it to his advantage 'begging' for his life.

[JMK]

Those 3 Jedi went down like little babies. It's not like they were taken by surprise, they knew he was the Sith lord. They were not good.

Something else I loved, and something else I thought needed at the very least to be better explained:

Loved: Obi Wan telling Yoda that he could not kill Anakin, that he wouldn't do it...it makes Obi Wan's lecture to Luke in RotJ about having to confront and kill Vader that much sweeter.

Needed to be explained:
If Anakin & Padme's love was such a well-kept secret, then why would Obi Wan go to Padme's apartment to find out what's wrong with him? In the comic adaptation Obi Wan tells Padme that he knows they're in love, that their secret isn't really much of a secret. That should have been included in the film. The way it is now, Obi Wan really has no reason to head over there to question her.

[JediBoricua]

Yoda did say to him to trust his feelings, that his hear will tell him where to look, or something around those lines.

[CMJ]

I'm not sure. Anakin didn't show up until Windu had already brought Palpatine to his knees. I sort of took his "defeat" at face value. I've never thought he was the TOTAL puppet master(yes he does plan everything, but not EVERYTHING) but Palp is terrific at changing plans mid course when things aren't working out so well.

Anyways, ROTS was really spellbinding. I'll probably put a full review up after a 2nd viewing.

[JMK]

Yeah that's true...I still think it would have been better if Obi Wan had told her that their act was up

Either way, eventually it would sink in that Yoda's line would point Obi Wan in the right direction.

[Shawn]

Originally posted by Darth McBain
Absolutely, JMK. I think Palpatine could have handled Mace entirely on his own - but was feigning weakness to force Anakin to choose his destiny Mace was one of the best swordsmen in the Jedi Order - second only to Yoda, I believe. I think he genuinely defeated Palpatine, but ol' Palpy may have been counting on that.

[AmazonBabe]

Loved. The. Movie! I don't like to put any SW film above another in terms of favorites, only cause I see them as one big fat story. But ROTS has really iced the cake for me.

I don't think I've ever cried so much during any movie. It gave me such a wide range of emotions, I was extremely exhausted when the film was over. And it struck me how everyone came away somber and quiet, not talkative like the other films. I think ppl were shocked at how dark this film was.

I really have no gripes with this movie save for one: It still doesn't explain how Leia remembers her real mother. But it's not a huge dealy, so it's doesn't bother me all that much. I think I've tried to justiofy it with something along the lines of Leia having memories of her mother through the Force or something.

On a whole, though, I really really like how this movie ties everything together. Finally, we get our answers. It feels good to have answers.


Speculation: Here's something interesting Joe and I were discussing after the movie. Remember the story of Darth Plagous the Wise and how he had learned how to manipulate midichlorians to create life and how Shmi had mentioned Anakin had no father? Well... is it possible that Palpatine, after killing Plagous, created a life in some slave on some backwater planet as an experiment to later use as his tool in his manipulation and plot to take over the Galaxy? Again, it's just a speculation, but it could make sense.


Fun fact: Did anyone catch Lucas in his cameo role? He's apparently playing a Baron Papanoida in an opera house scene somewhere. I've already seen the film twice and I'm still trying to spot him.


Line stuff: Once again, our group was first in line for the 12:01am show! We lined up at 10pm on Tuesday night. I can now say I have slept under the stars on a sidewalk outside of a movie theater (it was a clear gorgeous night, and the day following was beautiful and not hot (thank God)). We had lots of chairs, blankets, an air matress, a patio umbrella, (a tent and canopy in the event we'd need it) and the topper... an RV! Yup, I think we have mastered how to line-up for a midnight show. :D And of course, we dressed up. Not that many ppl in costume this time as last time, but as always, when you dress up, somehow you become a celebrity and EVERYONE wants a picture with you. Hell, someone even asked for my autograph. O_o


On a personal (RP) level: I came away from that film thinking on how evil a Sith really is... and then thinking of my character I RP here. I came SO close to convincing myself of ending my Sith character only because I just couldn't see myself being that heartless. I think what got me was when Anakin killed the younglings. But, then I thought I wouldn't end my character... I'd just have to rework her to reflect that heartlessness. It's gonna be hard, I know, only cause when you write, it's something that comes from you. Makes me glad I also have a Jedi character to balance it all out. ^_^;


Well, I'm a glutton for punishment, so even though I've seen the film at it's midnight opening and again on an IMAX screen, I'll be going to see it again this Sunday in digital! And I know for suire that won't be the last viewing for this summer. Maybe I can top my 20 TPM viewing... hell, this movie deservs to be at the top viewings! :D

[Southstar]

I saw the movie at 12:01 Thursday Morning (or wednesday night, whichever you prefer) and I absolutely loved it. But then again I absolutely love every Star Wars movie when I walk out of the theater. We'll see how I feel about after the two week test.

Sadly, I enjoyed the book so much more. I'm a fan of detail and I felt the book covered it very well. Things like Palpatine betraying Dooku and Qui-Gon and the secret to immortality seemed so unexplained in the movie. Anakin's turning seemed too rushed as well. If Lucas could have just announced out of the blue that A New Hope was now Episode 5 and that Episode 3 was going to be divided up to two pieces, I would have been fine with that.

Another thing, does anyone think that Palpatine was lying about Darth Plagous (sp?) knowing the secret to giving life? I think it was a bluff on Palpatine's part to exploit Anakin's weaknesses.

Regardless of my gripes, it was a good movie and the best of the prequels. Now I can't wait to see what's on the DVD!

[JMK]

Originally posted by Shawn
Mace was one of the best swordsmen in the Jedi Order - second only to Yoda, I believe. I think he genuinely defeated Palpatine, but ol' Palpy may have been counting on that.

I'm not sure I entirely agree. Because Palpy had it out with Yoda and more than held his own. I really believe his battle vs Mace was to draw Anakin's allegiance out.

[Dasquian Belargic]

With regards to Mace's skill...


StarWars.com says...
In his day, Mace was one of the best lightsaber fighters of the Jedi order. It was said only two opponents ever bested him -- Yoda, and Dooku. Only the most skilled of the Jedi could master the his Form VII discipline of combat -- the deadly technique known as vaapad -- for its aggressive nature treaded dangerously upon dark side practices.

That being said, I doubt he could have beaten Palpatine alone. While they might not have been the best duelists, Palpatine cut through Eeth Koth & co like a knife through butter. He clearly has skill with a saber.

I have to agree with JMK. I think Palpatines lose was all part of his plan to turn Anakin.

[Jedieb]

Here's something I'd like some input on: What's everyone's take on Palpatine's little monologue where he implies that [spoiler]either he or his master was the one responsible for Anakin's birth? In case anyone doesn't remember, he made a comment about how his master could create life by manipulating the midichlorians.


There's a ton of dialogue that got left on the cutting room floor. Just as I thought, ROTS has more discrepencies with its novelization then any other SW movie. It's what I expected because I thought Lucas would be editing the thing right up to the last minute. Early in the production process, Palps had dialogue in which he revealed to Anakin that he was responsible for his birth. An interesting idea that would have given ROTS an Empire style 'I am your father!' moment. Who knows, we could still see that somewhere down the line in the EU. You never know. I like the idea. And I swear you could see that Palps was even hinting at that with his facial expressions. It could be he was setting up a parenthood revelation for the revelation scene in his office later in the film.[spoiler]

A haphazard review.
[spoiler]


I loved the damn thing. It wasn't just a good SW movie, it was a good movie. ROTS stands alone quite nicely. Because the story of the OT is such a given, there's no sense of unfinished business at the end. As years go by and people start to see them in order for the first time that will probably change, but right now this film stands alone as well as ANH does. While it won't take as special a place in my heart as ROTJ, I'd say it's the best SW movie since ESB.

The acting was by far the best we've seen in the prequels and again, the best since ESB. Anakin and Obi-Wan finally came across as brothers in arms. Their banter didn't seem forced or contrived. Ewan seemed like he was having a blast. He's gotten several laughs at the two screenings I've seen. His ANH style "Hello there!" just as he confronts Grievous is a dead on Guiness. Even Portman and Christensen have some romantic chemistry. I actually believe that these two are in love. Even when the lines are cheesy, they still manage to make them work.

The duels are spectacular. After Dooku b-slaps Obi-Wan Anakin does seem to get the upper hand a bit too quickly, but at least we got them face to face with Dooku taunting him a bit. There was some cut dialogue with Palpatine egging Anakin on while he hesitates in killing Dooku that I would have liked to have seen, but the fight still works well. Obi-Wan and Grievous was a blast. I enjoyed it much more than his fight with Jango. The way he tore through his Magna Guards and the other battle droids was seriously cut down from the novelization, but I think that was a consequence of time, money, and film length. Oh well, it was still great to see him drop those guards with one shot. And that Force push that sent Grievous flying through the air was sweet. This was the fight that showed just how far Obi-Wan had come as a swordsman and a warrior. To me, this showed just why he was able to beat a more powerful Anakin. He defeated an enemy that had been slaughtering Jedi left and right and he did it single handedly.

I enjoyed Palps duel with Yoda more than his showdown with Mace. I do like the way Mace disfigured Palpatine. I think that was a clever way to explain Palpatine's OT appearance. And the look on Mace's face as he's being roasted was priceless. Like someone mentioned, we missed some key elements of the Yoda duel (one minute they're dueling, the next pods are flying), but the payoff was the Force Lightning showdown where Yoda finally slaps Palps back and send him flying backward. But I think that last bit of effort pretty much wiped him out. I do regret not seeing Yoda's "Only my pride." reply to Bail's question to if he was hurt, but that's a minor complaint.
I'm going again with my son at 6:30. This is by far the easiest perquel for me to justify multiple screenings with. I think will this help get ROTS to $400M and possibly close to $500M.

[CMJ]

Well, I haven't seen it a second time but Eb prompted me to write a little more. Having recently rewatched TPM and AOTC it's rather startling to me how much this new trilogy compliments each other. Doc made a great point about the three act structure of EpI-III and I completely agree.

Likewise I don't think I'll ever be able to watch ANH, ESB, or ROTJ the same way again. Luke's abrasiveness towards Yoda in ESB for example. Geez, think of how the little guy musta felt - "Hear we go again". The banter between Kenobi and Vader in ANH also has a WHOLE new element now.

I wonder how future viewers of the series will take them. The two trilogies will always seem distinct to us, but to people growing up with them they will undoubtedly seem uniform. GL really delivered the current day myth he wanted.

I'll comment more later.

[Jedieb]

Fun fact: Did anyone catch Lucas in his cameo role? He's apparently playing a Baron Papanoida in an opera house scene somewhere. I've already seen the film twice and I'm still trying to spot him.

When Anakin approaches Palpatine's opera seast you him Lucas talking to, if I'm not mistaken, his daughter. Lucas is to the left of the entrance to Palps opera seats. Anakin turns into the seats without passing by him.

[Jedieb]

Originally posted by Dasquian Belargic
With regards to Mace's skill...



That being said, I doubt he could have beaten Palpatine alone. While they might not have been the best duelists, Palpatine cut through Eeth Koth & co like a knife through butter. He clearly has skill with a saber.

I have to agree with JMK. I think Palpatines lose was all part of his plan to turn Anakin.


I have ALWAYS wanted to believe that no one but Yoda could possibly give Palps a run for his money. I went into ROTS wanting the scene to show me that Palps was just playing opossum to push Anakin into action. But I don't know if that's what Lucas finally decided to put on film. I think Mace really did give Palps a run for him money. I think the face melt was a direct result of the battle, not the revelation of Palps hidden face. The novelization certainly described how Mace was able to complete the circuit and use Palps own lightning against him. And it helps explain why Dooku could use it without any side effects. Still, Palps sure did bounce back pretty quick after Anakin chopped Mace's arm. I think he still had some more fight in him but he saw an opportunity to give Anakin a choice to make.

Am I the only one to think that Mace really was his own worst enemy? He really dropped the ball with Anakin. The scene in the gunship showed his level of distrust. He slapped Anakin down when he had his outburst in the Jedi Council and seemed to enjoy putting him in his place. But his real screw up was his reaction to Anakin's shocking revelation. What else did Anakin have to do to prove himself? In the novelization Anakin is a sleep deprived shattered man when he tells Mace. But not the movie. Anakin looks a bit stunned, but he's composed and ready to go. If Mace takes him with him the Jedi order is preserved. "If what you've told me is true, you've earned my trust." WTF? After all the years Anakin has been fighting and serving, he still didn't have his trust? He just turned over the granddaddy of all Sith Lords and you need to check it out to see if he's telling the truth? e's the Chosen One for Yoda's sake! But we already know that Mace has doubts about that. Well, those doubts ended up costing him his life. If Mace takes Anakin fully at his word and brings him in on the arrest then Palpatine has to complete alter his plan. The Jedi still would have had a chance. He blew it.

[JediBoricua]

I love your point Eb.

Mace is the archetype of the jedi order at that time. He is a man of principle and good intentions, but during his development as a jedi he has become snotty, arrogant in the light. His unwillingness to trust someone who doesn't follow the straight path of the lightside brings his doom.

Perhaps Anakin's task of bringing balance to the force meant wiping out all absolutes, light and dark.

[JMK]

Looking back on the prequels I think the Jedi made a ton of bone headed decisions. Starting with caving in and letting Obi Wan, himself a brand new knight, taking on this most important of child prodigies. The kid was already a special case (i.e. attachment to mom, anger issues etc...) and they let their rookie knight look after him? If it were another time and place, maybe. But the Sith just reared their ugly heads after a thousand years. Wouldn't that be the time to let the 'chosen one' learn from the best of the best?

Early in AotC Anakin completely spills the beans of how he feels about Padme, yet the council lets him run around the galaxy with her? Just the 2 of them? I know, I know...the kid's gotta learn, but COME ON guys! Then after his outburst to Obi Wan on the gunship about not leaving her behind, they let him go back to Naboo with her! Huh???? What is the council smoking?

Then in RotS, as Eb pointed out, they continually insulted Anakin and showed their mistrust with him. Not exactly the smartest of moves.

Here's something that's popped into my head:
None of us really know how old Palpy is. As old as Yoda, or as hold as he looks...like a 70-something year old man? IF he's as old as Yoda and has learned to stave off death through the dark side, then at what point did he show up on Naboo as a Senator? Wouldn't anyone have noticed that this regular politician has been around for hundreds of years and hasn't really aged at all? Is he a native of Naboo or did he show up one day and become their Senator? If so, then that's horrible. I know they're pacifist on that planet, but that's crazy! :lol

[JediBoricua]

Originally posted by JMK
Wouldn't anyone have noticed that this regular politician has been around for hundreds of years and hasn't really aged at all? Is he a native of Naboo or did he show up one day and become their Senator? If so, then that's horrible. I know they're pacifist on that planet, but that's crazy! :lol

NY did it with Hillary Clinton...:lol

[Jedieb]

It could be a Highlander scenario in which Palps has to hide his age by assuming new identities every few years. He could have come to Naboo looking like he's in his 40-50's and started a political career there. Ian has mentioned that he believes the character is quite old. I think Lucas was smart to stay away from painting himself into a corner by explicitly leaving his age up in the air. Leave it to th EU where someone can write a backstory and then Lucas can ignore it whenever he sees fit.


NY did it with Hillary Clinton...
:lol

[JediBoricua]

Another thing that just popped up and (i think) hasn't been mentioned:

By disabling the homing signal that called all jedi back to the Temple, Lucas leaves the door wide open for multiple jedi to have survived, thus providing the groundwork for the future TV series.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Originally posted by JediBoricua
Another thing that just popped up and (i think) hasn't been mentioned:

By disabling the homing signal that called all jedi back to the Temple, Lucas leaves the door wide open for multiple jedi to have survived, thus providing the groundwork for the future TV series.

We never do see the fates of Shaak Ti or Luminara and her former padawan.

[Nathanial K'cansce]

I wanted to see Shaak Ti against Anakin. In the novel, I believe that she was left at the Temple.

[Figrin D'an]

Mace Windu: He did screw up big time because of his attitude about Anakin. I completely agree that he was meant to represent the prototypical Jedi of that time period... so focused on what he believed was right that he could not even fathom what Obi-Wan eventually realized and taught Luke - "You're going to find that many things we hold to be true depend greatly upon our own point of view." Mace was arrogant. He had good intentions, and he was an honorable man, but he was overconfident and presumptious. And it ultimately cost him his own life and the lives of the fellow Jedi.

As for if he actually had Palpatine beaten or not... it's a bit of both IMO. Mace did best him in lightsaber combat, but Palpy could have fried him if he really wanted to. He was feigning his weakness to draw in Anakin, making it easier to defeat Windu. Yes, Yoda is a "better swordsman", but keep in mind that the form Yoda uses has been around for ages. The Sith would have been familiar with it. When Palpy fought Mace, it was the first time any Sith would have fought a Form VII master. It's a case of Palpy being somewhat unfamilar with his opponent's tactics. Given more time to study Mace's technique, I'll bet Palpy could have handled him.


Anakin's origins: It's part truth, part lie when Palpy tells Anakin about Darth Plagious and his powers, IMO. It's all part of the game he plays with everyone and every situation. It's almost impossible to seperate the truth from the lies because of the way he weaves everything together. That's why he's such a great villian... he's the ultimate master of manipulation.

I do agree with some others here that Sidious is far, far older than anyone knows. I think he knew how to use the Dark Side to stave off death for himself, but he didn't know how to use it to affect others... the one secret he didn't learn from his master. At some point, when he decided the time was right, he assumed the Palpatine identity in order to bring himself into the realm of Republic politics. He chose Naboo as his "adoptive" planet because they were naive and clueless enough to allow his plan to proceed with minimal problems.

[Nathanial K'cansce]

You know, I watched Return of the Jedi the night before I saw Revenge of the Sith, and I had a chill run up my spine when Yoda uttered the words "Do not - Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor. Or suffer your father's fate, you will." The look on Yoda's face was of pain when he said that.

Everytime I've heard that line before, I always had an inkling that Yoda took on Palpy. And now everytime I hear that line in future viewings, it's going to weigh so much more.

[Darth McBain]

I just got back from a second viewing and all I can say is WOW - it gets better the second time around. I'll post more later when I can compose my thoughts better, but really good stuff...

[CMJ]

I submitted a review to that site that's published some of my stuff. We'll see if they put it up - since I'm sure about 10,000 people sent in reviews for it. ;)

[Jedi Master Carr]

About Mace, I agree I found him very arogant and at the end very unjedi like, he was going to kill an unarmed prisoner, how is that different from what Anakin did with Dooku? I think the council is partly at fault honestly Qui-Gon was the jedi they should have followed. His views on the living force (which I think Yoda finally took up later) was the correct way of thinking things, that is why his death was so important if he had lived things would have been a lot different. About surviving Jedi, I am sure there are some a lot will be hunted down by Vader I imagine.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

I doubt you can really call the Emperor an unarmed prisoner. He can spew LIGHTNING from his fingertips. Plus he'd just killed three Jedi. If Mace was a policeman he'd be trying to empty his clip into Palpy's chest. I agree with Mace, the Emperor was too dangerous to let live.

[Figrin D'an]

Originally posted by Lilaena De'Ville
I doubt you can really call the Emperor an unarmed prisoner. He can spew LIGHTNING from his fingertips. Plus he'd just killed three Jedi. If Mace was a policeman he'd be trying to empty his clip into Palpy's chest. I agree with Mace, the Emperor was too dangerous to let live.


Perhaps so, but by deciding to kill Sidious, Mace came very close to giving in to the Dark Side himself. He's not a policeman. He's a Jedi. And while Jedi are sworn to protect the Republic, they also must have higher standards than most because of their powers. If they give in and fall to the Dark Side, they become the most dangerous beings in the galaxy. For all of his strengths and good intentions, Mace was blind to his own failings. Like I mentioned before, he was arrogant. He chastised Anakin, yet he was about to make the very same mistake that Anakin himself made earlier by killing a defeated Count Dooku.

Sidious was the most dangerous threat the Jedi had faced in at least a millenia, but one must look at the price to be paid to end his reign. Mace could have ended the threat (maybe... I still think Sidious could have fried Mace anyway had Anakin chosen not the interviene), but he would have sold his soul to accomplish it. It's the age old question of "do the ends justify the means?". For a Jedi, it's a far more serious question than to most.

[Jedi Master Carr]

That is a great point Figrin that is the way I feel Mace could have fallen to the darkside he was giving into his anger which is not the jedi way.

[Jedieb]

Saw it again with my son tonight and bought tickets for Sunday. Lovin' it a bit more each time. Here's something that I really noticed for the first time. As Mace and the gang head off to arrest Palpatine we get those great shots of Anakin at the temple and Padme in her apartment. The music is some of the best in the film and the editing was superb. Maybe I'm wrong, but while Anakin is sitting there we hear Palpatines voice basically saying "If they kill me Padme will die with me." At first I thought Anakin was remembering something Palps said earlier, but now I'm thinking Palpatine was speaking to Anakin through the Force at that very moment. The same way that Vader spoke to Luke when the gang was making their escape aboud the Falcon at the end of ESB. How sweet is that?

Mace, judge, jury, and executioner.
I honestly cannot blame Mace for wanting to kill Sidious at that moment. After all, just what mission are Yoda and Obi-Wan on at the end of the film? They're each out to kill their opponent. Neither Yoda nor Obi-Wan had any intention of arresting their opponent. Obi-Wan could have easily gotten to Anakin before he started roasting. He let him burn and left him to die. And don't think that if Yoda couldn't have offed Palpatine, even if he had attempted to surrender, that he wouldn't of. Mace was right, a trial would have been a joke.

Which brings me to yet another example of Palp's genius. Look at what he's maneuvered the Jedi into doing towards the end of ROTS. The Jedi are ready to remove the Chancellor from office and take control of the Senate. And this is BEFORE they know he's a Sith. They really are plotting to take over the Republic. He's outmaneuvered them at every turn.

[Jedi Master Carr]

well when Yoda and Obi-Wan go to do it, it is more that there is no other choice. I just think Mace was giving into his anger which what was different from what Yoda and Obi-Wan were doing.

[Jedieb]

Well, Mace and anger go way back. Without bringing in a whole bunch of anger and Vapaad crap, it's part of who he is. I think before the Force Lightning Mace might have taken Palps in. But after that barrage I think his mind was made up. Something along the line of; 'This is my only chance. I've got to get him now while I have the chance. He really is too dangerous to leave alive.' Which is probably Palps wants Mace to be thinking. What he wants all the Jedi to be thinking. He wanted the Jedi to become soldiers and they did. He wanted them to inject themselves more into politics than they usually did and they ended up doing just that. If I were Mace, after seeing him cut down 3 Masters without breaking a sweat and giving me all that could handle and more, I'd have probably tried to do the same thing. And if I were angry while doing it so be it.

Let's not forget, by the end of ROTS the Jedi Order has come to realize that the old ways may not have been as absolute as they had once believed. They stubbornly held on to them and found themselves nearly wiped out. Yoda has basically become Qui-Gon's pupil at the end of ROTS. At the least, he's learning an aspect of the Force that alluded him for over 800 years. By the time Luke gets the order running (whether you want to accept the EU or not), the Jedi Order will not be rebuilt in the same manner it was before the Clone Wars. Jedi are going to have their attachments and they're going to have to deal with them. Love, anger,marriage, children, emotions, attachments, much of what was forbidden to the Jedi the new order will have to learn to deal with.

Ah, I'm tired and I'm rambling. Bottom line, I'd have tried to off the evil ol' bastard as well.
:duel

[Wei Wu Wei]

I thought it was the most interesting section when Vader comes off of the operating table and asks about Padme. His voice, his body, everything is robotic sounding. But you can still tell he's got a hold on his humanity. It was absolutley shocking.

In so many ways I felt incredibly sorry for Anakin. I didn't cry during this movie, but I kind of wish I had.

I do wish Qui Gon would have shown up in the movie, though.

The Younglings' murders were horrific. I got so incredibly angry when that happened.

[Ishan Shade]

I refuse to believe that Palpatine had anything to do with Anakin's birth. I always loved the idea of the prophecy. I mean Anakin Skywalker is "The Son of the Suns." He is the chosen one - created by the force - and ultimately, brings balance to the force.

[Dasquian Belargic]

Originally posted by Jedi Master Carr
That is a great point Figrin that is the way I feel Mace could have fallen to the darkside he was giving into his anger which is not the jedi way.

I thought that too. Perhaps given different circumstances, had Palpatine not needed than final push to bring Anakin to his side, he could have converted Mace too. The tables certainly had changed, with Anakin being the rational one.

[Shawn]

Originally posted by Dasquian Belargic
I thought that too. Perhaps given different circumstances, had Palpatine not needed than final push to bring Anakin to his side, he could have converted Mace too. The tables certainly had changed, with Anakin being the rational one. Yes and No. Anakin wasn't entirely being "rational" - he wanted Palpatine alive so he could save Padme, and said as much. It was there, but he had an ulterior motive.

[JMK]

Either way you dice the situation, one thing was clear: The Jedi's time was up. They were blinded by complacency and mired in a bunch of silly decisions that cost them dearly.

[Anbira Hicchoru]

Originally posted by Shawn
Yes and No. Anakin wasn't entirely being "rational" - he wanted Palpatine alive so he could save Padme, and said as much. It was there, but he had an ulterior motive.

Which lends credence to his plea for Padme to join him and overthrow the Chancellor, since the moment Palpatine reveals himself to Anakin, he is no longer a friend. He is an enemy who just so happens to be holding the one bargaining chip he needs.

[Firebird1]

Great Movie!


Impressive use of the right works and Ani becomes the Darth Vader we all know and love. Great sword fights and battle scenes make this a good movie. I might have to go see it again to get all of it.

One thing that bothered me is that now that the Jedi are history, does this mean that all the Jedi are killed or is this more of an opening to a TV show(The cartoon or other).

[Figrin D'an]

Originally posted by Firebird1

One thing that bothered me is that now that the Jedi are history, does this mean that all the Jedi are killed or is this more of an opening to a TV show(The cartoon or other).


It was kind of implied that there were still Jedi about the galaxy on assignment in various places when Obi-Wan and Yoda changed the homing beacon in the Temple to a warning to all Jedi to stay away from the core systems. I'm guess that even Order 66 didn't wipe out every Jedi, that some may have escaped as Obi-Wan did, or that others may have been in non-combat situations and managed to hide before the Clonetroopers/Stormtroopers found them. It leaves the door open for possible storylines in the 18 year gap inbetween ROTS and ANH, like the Emperor sending Vader to hunt down any surviving Jedi.

[Firebird1]

Originally posted by Figrin D'an
It was kind of implied that there were still Jedi about the galaxy on assignment in various places when Obi-Wan and Yoda changed the homing beacon in the Temple to a warning to all Jedi to stay away from the core systems. I'm guess that even Order 66 didn't wipe out every Jedi, that some may have escaped as Obi-Wan did, or that others may have been in non-combat situations and managed to hide before the Clonetroopers/Stormtroopers found them. It leaves the door open for possible storylines in the 18 year gap inbetween ROTS and ANH, like the Emperor sending Vader to hunt down any surviving Jedi.

The Emperior said as such when he was taking power, so I guess we wait and see what the future brings

[JMK]

We never see what happens to Shaak Ti and Luminari Unduli so they may be good candidates for the TV show.

[Baralai Lotus]

I enjoyed the movie. It was really amazing, but it had it's weak points. I did however, wish to jump up when Palpy pulled out his gold and black lightsaber and scream out, "STRAIGHT BLINGBLINGIN!"

[Jedieb]

Originally posted by Ishan Shade
I refuse to believe that Palpatine had anything to do with Anakin's birth. I always loved the idea of the prophecy. I mean Anakin Skywalker is "The Son of the Suns." He is the chosen one - created by the force - and ultimately, brings balance to the force.

Here's something to think about. Say you're Palps and you've learned the secret of using the midichlorians to create life. You've heard of the Jedi's Chosen One prophecy. So you decide to create your own future apprentice knowing the Jedi will mistakenly assume he's the Chosen. You don't really believe in the prophecy yourself, but it's a great way to get a sleeper apprentice in the Jedi Order. At the end of ROTS Palps has everything he's ever wanted. He thinks he's fooled the Jedi Order with his false Chosen One. Little does he know that he has actually created the actual Chosen One and that he'll be taking a header down a shaft in a couple of decades.

Lucas has left enough room for us to play our out own scenarios. Man, I can't wait to see it again tomorrow.

[Ishan Shade]

Originally posted by Jedieb
Here's something to think about. Say you're Palps and you've learned the secret of using the midichlorians to create life. You've heard of the Jedi's Chosen One prophecy. So you decide to create your own future apprentice knowing the Jedi will mistakenly assume he's the Chosen. You don't really believe in the prophecy yourself, but it's a great way to get a sleeper apprentice in the Jedi Order. At the end of ROTS Palps has everything he's ever wanted. He thinks he's fooled the Jedi Order with his false Chosen One. Little does he know that he has actually created the actual Chosen One and that he'll be taking a header down a shaft in a couple of decades.

Lucas has left enough room for us to play our out own scenarios. Man, I can't wait to see it again tomorrow.

Yes he certaintly did, and I love that aspect. However, I guess I just love the idea of the prophecy. It kind of has a biblical aspect to it, but I like the idea of the whole prophecy - that in the time of greatest despair there shall come a savior, and he will bring balance to the force.

Anakin Skywalker, born into slavery, created by the force, is the chosen one spoken of in the Jedi lore.

He ultimately brings balance to the force, even though the path he took to do it was not forseen, it did happen.

I guess I just think that's a cool concept. I mean, I think the entire Star Wars saga is basically about Anakin and this prophecy. The timeline covered in the Star Wars movies is probably the most important events ever in the galaxy far, far away. We witness the birth of the Chosen One, the purge of the Jedi, the rise of the Empire, and in the end, the fall of the Empire and the Sith completely.

[Figrin D'an]

Saw it again this evening (2nd viewing). The couple of things that bugged me the first time around didn't this time, or at least not nearly as much. And a good deal of the film seemed even better, since I was able to catch more detail.

The Anakin/Obi-Wan duel was just amazing yet again, and Kenobi's final words with Anakin are even more powerful and heartbreaking than in the first viewing.


I may see it again tomorrow... it'll depend upon what else I need to accomplish before the next work week begins.

[JediBoricua]

Maybe I'm wrong, but while Anakin is sitting there we hear Palpatines voice basically saying "If they kill me Padme will die with me."

Eb, you're totally right. He does say it.

Today I watched the complete OT, and boy have things changed. Every little thing you loved about the characters now has more significance. Everything has more meaning and depth. Lucas really hit it out of the ballpark with this one. Every time Luke or Leia smiles you are taken back to their birth, to all the sacrifice that made it possible for them to exist.

My now favorite OT scene has to be the throne room in ROTJ. Anakin is faced with the same decision. First he had to choose between his master (Mace) and what accounted as his only father figure, his only 'friend', his only confidant. Now, once again, he has to choose between his master, and his son, his own blood. The power of that scene has been multiplied ten times.

About the legend of D. Plagueis and the Prophecy. I doubt Palpatine was the 'father'. He is a master planner, but there is no way he could have known that after Naboo, Qui-Gon would have landed in Tatooine and met Anakin. Like many have said, he is just a master at adapting. I see that comment as a sales pitch. He evidently wants Anakin to see him as a father figure, calling him son, watching over him. The 'legend' just gets Anakin closer to the edge.

[Gav Mortis]

I enjoyed my third viewing yesterday, and my sentiments are exactly the same as those of Fig's. I find myself getting goosebumps at the same moments as in the previous viewings, same touching moments, same laughter, etc. It's a thoroughly repeatable enjoyable experience. Only one bit that really irritates me about the whole film:

"NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!"

Edit: And one of my favourite, hair standing up on the back of my neck moments was definately the showdown between Mace Windu and Palpatine. Specifically the following dialogue:

Mace: The senate will decide your fate.

Palpatine: I am the senate!

Ooh, it just gives me shivers! :D

[JMK]

Here why I can't bring myself to believe that Palpatine had anything to do with Anakin's birth: Just prior to RotS's release I had asked to what extent Palpy had set all this up. I even wondered if, and how he knew the group escaping Naboo would land on Tatooine for repairs and eventually discover Anakin. I refuse to believe that to be true. That it totally reckless on Lucas' part. That group was lucky to escape, there's no way Palpy could have ever known that they would barely get away. One extra blast could have ended the whole thing. No way could he have planned it down to that last little detail.

That being said, there is a strong inference there that something is up. Just like when ESB was released, people debated whether or not Vader was telling the truth about being Luke's father. I guess now we get to debate this...but will we ever get the answer?

[Spada Elhow]

I have to say this movie was definitely better than phantom menace or AOTC, and it ranks up there with the Trilogy. They did a really good job of tying everything together, but the only thing that i didnt like was

EDIT-how do i make the hilighted text to cover spoilers?

[Gav Mortis]

Spoiler tags are (spoiler) and (/spoiler). Just substitute regular brackets for [square brackets]. :)

[JediBoricua]

Originally posted by JMK
Here why I can't bring myself to believe that Palpatine had anything to do with Anakin's birth: Just prior to RotS's release I had asked to what extent Palpy had set all this up. I even wondered if, and how he knew the group escaping Naboo would land on Tatooine for repairs and eventually discover Anakin. I refuse to believe that to be true. That it totally reckless on Lucas' part. That group was lucky to escape, there's no way Palpy could have ever known that they would barely get away. One extra blast could have ended the whole thing. No way could he have planned it down to that last little detail.



I totally agree.

But playing devil's advocate you can say that once you get the ball rolling you can't stop it. Palpatine or Plagueis knew about the prophecy. They simply had to start the process. Once Anakin is conceived by the Force, the Force itself will conspire to make sure he reaches the Jedi Council and fulfills his destiny. If Qui-Gon had died at Naboo, then another jedi would have found Ani and brought him to Coruscant. Or maybe he would become a pod racing prodigy across the Outer Rim, thus gaining the attention of the Council, etc. The possibilities are endless.

But to me it makes more sense that Palpatine is only using the circumstances to his advantage, and every single sentence, comment and lie is designed to bring Anakin under his wing.

[JMK]

You're right, there are many possibilities, I'll choose to believe that Palpatine just told Anakin what he thought would sway his thoughts and feelings to the dark side.

[Jedieb]

But playing devil's advocate you can say that once you get the ball rolling you can't stop it. Palpatine or Plagueis knew about the prophecy. They simply had to start the process. Once Anakin is conceived by the Force, the Force itself will conspire to make sure he reaches the Jedi Council and fulfills his destiny. If Qui-Gon had died at Naboo, then another jedi would have found Ani and brought him to Coruscant. Or maybe he would become a pod racing prodigy across the Outer Rim, thus gaining the attention of the Council, etc. The possibilities are endless.

But to me it makes more sense that Palpatine is only using the circumstances to his advantage, and every single sentence, comment and lie is designed to bring Anakin under his wing.

And that's pretty much how I feel. I like that Lucas left some room for us to play with this and didn't spell things out for us. The "I created you, I'm your father." was in the first couple of drafts of the script so that's where he was going at one point. (Gawd I love that Making of ROTS book!) If he had spelled it out he might have painted himself into the same corner he did with Leia's ROTJ Padme memories. And enough with that, Leia never even got close enough to see Padme's face. Force enhanced newborn vision? o_O

[Anbira Hicchoru]

The Leia thing doesn't concern me. Who knows what a force-sensitive infant might recall or know of their surroundings.

[Travis North]

All I have to say is this... Order 66 ... is the best part.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

The Leia part I assume who she really remembers is Bail Organa's wife, who dies early on.

[Gav Mortis]

Originally posted by Lilaena De'Ville
The Leia part I assume who she really remembers is Bail Organa's wife, who dies early on.

My thoughts exactly.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Ahh! We think alike again!! :eek

[Tiberius Anar]

Ok. Spent quite a while cogitating on this film, having seen it on the Thursday. Here are my thoughts.

My opinion of the film is very high. It was executed and well written- with the exception of one or two lines. Really most enjoyable.

A few quibbles:

Like others I found the opening space battle somewhat difficult to follow, being dumped right into the middle of all that action really threw me. It was not like ANH where I could cope with it.

I was a little disappointed in Grevious, I thought he was going to be a big part of the film and one of the major opponents. He seemed too easy to beat. But that may be because I have not seen the cartoons.

I was annoyed somewhat by the appearance of the Death Star at the end and Grand Moff Tarkin standing next to the Emperor and Vader. I liked the whole designed in the Maw explanation. It is also a little quick because this is only a few months (at most) since the declaration of the Empire. Tarkin has to have been a Moff for a while to reach Grand Moff and all those institutional changes cannot have been done so quickly.

A few bits I really loved:

The duel between Dooku and Anakin. Particularly the facial expressions of the two Sith. Palpatine watching the fight and Dooku's face when Palpatine says "Kill him."

Anakin meeting Palpatine in the Opera House. So much wordiness! Palpatine the master orator using words to get at Anakin.

The way Palpatine manipulated the Senate into approving the Empire and Padme's line: "So this is how liberty dies, to thunderus applause

And some ruminations on...

The prophecy: Prophecies are always so tricky. I tend to go with the whole idea that they will fulfill themselves. In this case the force is moving everything along. It is moving Anakin to where he will be able to do his job, it is moving Qui-Gon when he picks Tatooine to hide after Naboo, it is moving the Jedi Council when it places Anakin with Obi-Wan. It is even moving the arch-manipulator, Palpatine along, so if you want to go with him creating Anakin you can- the force would make the prophecy come true. If you don't want to go with this idea, you don't have to because it can be fulfilled another way.

And whilst on this topic. I may be saying the obvious but the Chosen One's job is to bring balance to the force. To me that means evening the playing field to two Sith and two Jedi, which Vader does. He kills every active Jedi except Yoda, which leaves the two Sith Lords against the little green one and Luke- a brief moment of balance. He fulfills the prophecy when he kills Obi-Wan.

The Emperor: being blasted by the force lighting explains his appearance very nicely but I was always very comfortable with the idea of Palpatine being deformed by years of dabbling with Sith Magic. (I read a wonderful short fan-fic about Sate Pestage which said that Palpatine's true appearance at the time of the Rebellion was a secret because he always appeared to the people looking like an old but vigorous man thanks to holo-technology).

Having him scarred and deformed because of the Jedi "attempt on my life" misses an opportunity in my mind to get shock value from ESB when Palpatine appears to Vader as a hologram.

I'm inclined to believe that Palpatine is actually as old as he looks up until the duel. I couldn't accept him being as old as Yoda or anything like that. I think he learned his force knowledge from holocrons, one left, say, by Darth Palagius which he later destroyed thus "killing" his master. (Gets around the problem of the Sith not having existed for a thousand years without expecting Palpatine to have been around that long). It could have all been part of academic curiosity. There is a line where he says that understand something one needs to understand all its aspects not just a narrow, dogmatic view of it But he got corrupted by it and began to see how to get control.

And why does he want control? Nicely summed up in the line already quoted "...and then we shall have peace." Just my thought anyway.

The viewing experience: an observation by my friend got me thinking. People in the future, for eg my children if I have any, will not be able to watch the two trilogies in order. They will have to watch IV-VI and then I-III as we did. Lucas has pitched it at the existing fan base rather than write it as a developing saga. The end sequence where it ties up bits means that it just won't work so well as a I-VI viewing. This is because:

the birth of the twins and their names are shown on screen, which wipes out the surprise of a)"I am your father." b)Hey Luke and Leah are siblings! *gasp*.

The niggling Death Star subplot of the prequels (see above) prevents the awe of "That's no moon, that's a battle station."

Which is a shame because no-one will benefit from the added weight given to the conduct of Yoda and Obi-Wan in IV-VI by what happens in I-III. For example what someone (sory can't remember who) said about Yoda thinking "Here we go again".

[Red_Rocket]

very well said, i agree with you, one who is new will have to watch, 4-6 before they watch 1-3,

Before i watched the movie i thought lucas would leave alot of things unanswered, but nothing wasnt, and everything was tied together in the last 5-7 minutes of 3

very good job on this movie...

prob the only one i will see more than once in theatres.

[Rutabaga]

Finally saw the movie yesterday in a packed theater here in my hometown, and I loved it. Not perfect, there were a couple of things that detracted from its success ever so slightly, but not enough to reduce my opinion of the movie at all. I'm not ashamed to admit that I was bawling like a little baby during the last 10 or 15 minutes, it was so sad and affecting.

I'll post more details later. :)

[Darth McBain]

Originally posted by Tiberius Anar
I was annoyed somewhat by the appearance of the Death Star at the end and Grand Moff Tarkin standing next to the Emperor and Vader. I liked the whole designed in the Maw explanation. It is also a little quick because this is only a few months (at most) since the declaration of the Empire. Tarkin has to have been a Moff for a while to reach Grand Moff and all those institutional changes cannot have been done so quickly.


Who's to say, though, that Palpatine waited until the declaration of the Empire to begin construction? For all we know, he had begun secret construction already. Also, the movie doesn't speak at all about Tarkin's rank at that time. He could just be an up-and-coming officer.

[Ishan Shade]

I think I'm in love with Natalie Portman. Anyone else think she looked b-e-a-utiful throughout the film?

[Nathanial K'cansce]

Gets around the problem of the Sith not having existed for a thousand years without expecting Palpatine to have been around that long

The Jedi think the Sith have been extinct for a millenia, but I was always under the impression that the Sith were just hiding for 1000 years, waiting for the right time to show themselves. And during that time, Master took apprentice, and then apprentice succeeded master and took an apprentice of his own and that went on until Palpy was ready to, to quote Maul, "reveal ourselves to the Jedi."

[Darth McBain]

Originally posted by Ishan Shade
I think I'm in love with Natalie Portman. Anyone else think she looked b-e-a-utiful throughout the film?

Oh yeah, I'm a sucker for Nat...


Originally posted by Nathanial K'cansce
The Jedi think the Sith have been extinct for a millenia, but I was always under the impression that the Sith were just hiding for 1000 years, waiting for the right time to show themselves. And during that time, Master took apprentice, and then apprentice succeeded master and took an apprentice of his own and that went on until Palpy was ready to, to quote Maul, "reveal ourselves to the Jedi


That's exactly what I was thinking. The whole "rule-of-two" thing served to keep their numbers small and protect them from being detected by the Jedi. All that time, they were waiting until the right time to reveal themselves and take control.

[Tiberius Anar]

Good point.

As to the Tarkin thing, being very sad when it comes to the Imperial Armed Forces I can id most of the ranks. Trust me Tarkin is wearing Grand Moff insignia. Not, in my mind possible in that v. short space of time.

Which is something I forgot to note earlier. No matter how brilliantly done, the transformation of the Republic to the Empire was a little too quick for me. Though I will allow that much of the ground work had already been done by Palpatine during his time as Supreme Chancellor there was just a little too much pace on it for my liking. Perhaps a second viewing will help...

[Jedieb]

Originally posted by Lilaena De'Ville
The Leia part I assume who she really remembers is Bail Organa's wife, who dies early on.

That's always been the most logical explanation for me. Hell, newborns can't even see more than a few inches. Basically they can see from their mother's breast to their mother's face. It's where the "Your Daddy is a horrible man" conditioning begins. Spend enough time sleeping next to cranky pregnant woman and you learn a few things. But then again, this is a universe where we have sound in the vacuum of space....

I loved seeing the skeleton of the Death Star at the end of the film. I've read all the Maw stuff and I could care less that it was thrown out the window. I think the impression that Lucas wants a casual viewer to get is that they've been working on the Death Star since Dooku took the plans back to Sidious at the end of AOTC. I also liked Palps declaraion of the Empire. Again, that's specifically for the casual movie goer. The Empire doesn't get created offscreen between "ROTS and ANH, it happens right in front of their eyes. When they put the next DVD in after watching ROTS they know exactly what they're seeing when the blockade runner gets chased down.

The 07 3-D release is going to be interesting to watch. I bet we're going to see them released in order by their Episode. We're the last generation that's going to experience them OT, then PT. It's a whole different movie for the next group of boys and girls.

I'm loving the movie more and more. I don't even feel the need to point out any faults I've seen or experienced. Each time I see the first meeting between Anakin and Padme I'm more impressed with Hayden's performance in that seen. He really does seem like a man in love and he gets the "I'm going to be a Daddy!" down PERFECT. That's their best scene together and it makes the ending really pay off for me.

[Lilaena De'Ville]

Thousandth view of the thread is mine! *clutches it*

Tiberius, for that matter where did all the naval officers in the grey uniforms come from? I think we are meant to assume that this has been in the works in secret for a while. Perhaps Tarkin is a Seperatist Grand Moff, after all the Death Star plans went to Dooku, the Separtist leader.

[Darth McBain]

Originally posted by Tiberius Anar
Good point.

As to the Tarkin thing, being very sad when it comes to the Imperial Armed Forces I can id most of the ranks. Trust me Tarkin is wearing Grand Moff insignia. Not, in my mind possible in that v. short space of time.

Which is something I forgot to note earlier. No matter how brilliantly done, the transformation of the Republic to the Empire was a little too quick for me. Though I will allow that much of the ground work had already been done by Palpatine during his time as Supreme Chancellor there was just a little too much pace on it for my liking. Perhaps a second viewing will help...

Well, I can't argue with that - my knowledge of Imperial insignia ranks isn't quite up to par... But I wonder if, in the Empire's infancy, they ignored some of the promotions. For instance, in the Clone Wars, most of the Jedi just became generals - they didn't work their way up through ranks - situations just dictated that they become generals. Maybe Palpatine needed some high-ranking officials quickly, so Tarkin was quickly promoted to that rank.

[Figrin D'an]

Originally posted by Tiberius Anar
And whilst on this topic. I may be saying the obvious but the Chosen One's job is to bring balance to the force. To me that means evening the playing field to two Sith and two Jedi, which Vader does. He kills every active Jedi except Yoda, which leaves the two Sith Lords against the little green one and Luke- a brief moment of balance. He fulfills the prophecy when he kills Obi-Wan.



This is where a lot of people will disagree, including myself. I don't interpret "bringing balance to the Force" as being dependent upon the number of Jedi or Sith alive at one time. I interpret it as being essentially what the Jedi originally thought it would mean. It's merely that the Chosen One (Anakin) takes a far different path to fulfull the Prophecy than what the Jedi were expecting.


Here's my line of thought:

The whole midichlorian aspect of one's connection to the Force introduced the idea of symbiosis... life forms living together for mutual advantage. The midichlorians don't actually create the Force, they are simply receivers/transmitters. Persons with high levels of them can feel the Force because of them, and can transmit commands that can control the Force, allowing them to have extranormal abilities. The Jedi philosophy is one of balance, a give-and-take relationship. The Jedi, through the michlorians, can command the Force, but they also listen to the will of the Force, allowing it to guide them. The Sith, on the other hand, only command the Force. They dominate it, using their connection via the midichlorians to bend the Force to their own wills. They believe the Force is a tool for achieving ultimate power for themselves. This is, in essence, a way of perverting the Force, poisoning it and upsetting the natural give-and-take balance that life is supposed to have with the Force.

The Prophecy of the Chosen One says that one will eventually emerge who will ultimately restore this balance. Anakin is the Chosen One, and he does accomplish this, but only at the end of ROTJ. When Anakin destroys the Emperor, and is himself redeemed and dies, he at last ends the lineage of the Sith. The perversion of the Force by Palpatine and Vader, and all that came before them, is over. The true power and knowledge of the Sith dies with them, leaving Luke, the last of the Jedi, to be the guardian of the new balance and the new teacher of the Jedi ways.


I don't really like the whole numerical balance idea because it guts the conclusion to the saga. The end of the entire story is much more poignent if it is in that moment that the Prophecy at last comes true, bringing Anakin's life full circle and to completion. He fulfills his destiny, the reason for his very existence, and passes the mantle of continuing protector of that destiny onto his son in his final moments.

[Anbira Hicchoru]

Originally posted by Figrin D'an
This is where a lot of people will disagree, including myself. I don't interpret "bringing balance to the Force" as being dependent upon the number of Jedi or Sith alive at one time. I interpret it as being essentially what the Jedi originally thought it would mean. It's merely that the Chosen One (Anakin) takes a far different path to fulfull the Prophecy than what the Jedi were expecting.


Here's my line of thought:

The whole midichlorian aspect of one's connection to the Force introduced the idea of symbiosis... life forms living together for mutual advantage. The midichlorians don't actually create the Force, they are simply receivers/transmitters. Persons with high levels of them can feel the Force because of them, and can transmit commands that can control the Force, allowing them to have extranormal abilities. The Jedi philosophy is one of balance, a give-and-take relationship. The Jedi, through the michlorians, can command the Force, but they also listen to the will of the Force, allowing it to guide them. The Sith, on the other hand, only command the Force. They dominate it, using their connection via the midichlorians to bend the Force to their own wills. They believe the Force is a tool for achieving ultimate power for themselves. This is, in essence, a way of perverting the Force, poisoning it and upsetting the natural give-and-take balance that life is supposed to have with the Force.

The Prophecy of the Chosen One says that one will eventually emerge who will ultimately restore this balance. Anakin is the Chosen One, and he does accomplish this, but only at the end of ROTJ. When Anakin destroys the Emperor, and is himself redeemed and dies, he at last ends the lineage of the Sith. The perversion of the Force by Palpatine and Vader, and all that came before them, is over. The true power and knowledge of the Sith dies with them, leaving Luke, the last of the Jedi, to be the guardian of the new balance and the new teacher of the Jedi ways.


I don't really like the whole numerical balance idea because it guts the conclusion to the saga. The end of the entire story is much more poignent if it is in that moment that the Prophecy at last comes true, bringing Anakin's life full circle and to completion. He fulfills his destiny, the reason for his very existence, and passes the mantle of continuing protector of that destiny onto his son in his final moments.

Precisely. People take the whole "balance" thing waaaaay too literally.

[JMK]

Besides, if it's a numerical thing, then after Vader and the Emperor are dead and Luke is left...the force would be 'unbalanced'. One Jedi, zero Sith...imbalance.

[CMJ]

I read a interview with GL where he basically says the same thing.

[Jedieb]

Fig's 'balance' post should be required reading. :thumbup

Although remember, the Emperor's not really dead! He'll be back in Dark Empire!!!! :rolleyes (Wow, that really hasn't aged well, has it?)

I've got a half day on Thursday and Friday and Monday off. The wife will be at work and all the kids will be at school and day care. I know where I'll be........

[Darth McBain]

Yeah, that was very insightful - good job Fig... And EB, nice - have a good time... I've seen it twice so far, but that will probably be it for a while (I know - scaling back in my old age ;) ) My wife going to visit her Mom for two weeks in mid-June and she's taking our daughter, so I'll hopefully catch up a little bit then...

[JediBoricua]

More symbolism in the movie!

Discussing the opera scene with a friend he made the following observation:

"When Palpatine is telling Anakin about how Plagueis could manipulate the midichlorians and create life, the scene in front of them very much looks like a female egg in the process of being fertilized"

I'm starting to believe that Palpatine was behind the virgin birth. All the signs are there when you think about it.

[Charley]

Originally posted by JediBoricua
More symbolism in the movie!

Discussing the opera scene with a friend he made the following observation:

"When Palpatine is telling Anakin about how Plagueis could manipulate the midichlorians and create life, the scene in front of them very much looks like a female egg in the process of being fertilized"

I'm starting to believe that Palpatine was behind the virgin birth. All the signs are there when you think about it.

I dunno. This is starting to become a cinematic Rorschach test

[JediBoricua]

After googling Rorschach, I must agree...

[Doc Milo]

The viewing experience: an observation by my friend got me thinking. People in the future, for eg my children if I have any, will not be able to watch the two trilogies in order. They will have to watch IV-VI and then I-III as we did. Lucas has pitched it at the existing fan base rather than write it as a developing saga. The end sequence where it ties up bits means that it just won't work so well as a I-VI viewing. This is because:

the birth of the twins and their names are shown on screen, which wipes out the surprise of a)"I am your father." b)Hey Luke and Leah are siblings! *gasp*.

The niggling Death Star subplot of the prequels (see above) prevents the awe of "That's no moon, that's a battle station."

I disagree. The power behind the revelation scene in ESB is in the suspense, not in the mystery. I have seen ESB countless times, and I still get chills everytime I watch that scene. Why? Because it is emotional and suspenseful. The mystery is long gone, yet the scene is still powerful. You are so wrapped up in Luke's character at that moment that when the revelation comes, the suspense of it still remains, and it's almost as if you are hearing those words for the first time, everytime. Luke and Leia beings siblings was never a big deal mystery "oh my God" moment. And Obi-Wan's "That's no moon" comment is not a big deal either. We have already seen the death star before that moment in the movie.

I think the loose ends tie up at the end of Sith really does a good job of making it viewable as a 1-6 saga.

[Doc Milo]

I agree with Fig's balance post. Very insightful.

I also remember reading an interview with Lucas that explained the balance of the force in terms of morals and absolutes.

Obi-Wan has a line in Sith about only a Sith deals in absolutes that I believe can be interpretted wrongly by some.

Star Wars has always dealt delicately with relativism v. absolutism. On the one hand, the Force has a light side and a dark side. Good and Evil. Those are absolutes. On the other hand, "many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view" and "Your focus determines your reality." Those are statements of relativism. I believe that Lucas wants this balance between absolutism and relativism. That the two philosophies can't really be mutually exclusive. That yes, there are absolutes, especially when it comes to morality. But when it comes to the choices of living beings, relativity rules the day. When Anakin says, "You're either with me or you're my enemy, he is speaking in an absolute that doesn't take into account that someone can be on his side, yet be against the path he's taken. Thus, that person trying to save him is not an enemy, even though he can't join him or take the path Anakin's taken.

I remember in the interview, Lucas said something about the line between good and evil being blurred, and thus the Force was out of balance. This is a concept of moral relativism corrupting moral absolutism. There is no right or wrong, there is no black and white, there is only gray. In his explanation, Anakin brought balance by destroying the corruptive influence (the Emperor, the Sith) and making clear the line between good and evil once again. Look at Palpatine's manipulations and you will see he works in just enough truth to make his lies work, he blurs the line between right and wrong, making not just Anakin, but all the Jedi make choices that eventually lead to their doom. Luke, on the other hand, walks up to the line, and does not cross. The Emperor seeks to kill him for not crossing, then Vader kills the Emperor, and destroys the Sith, leaving Luke alive, a Jedi in balance, with a clear knowledge of right and wrong -- a clear line. Thus creating balance between absolutism and relativism. Living beings, with different points of view, live in the realm of relativism, but they also have a set or rules telling them what is right and what is wrong. Thus, the dirty little secret is that absolutism and relativism are not mutually exclusive, but must exist together, in proper balance -- or as Fig said in his post, in symbiosis.

[JediBoricua]

Milo you should write a book.

Honestly.

[CMJ]

Yeah, I often find myself re-reading Doc's stuff when I get into arguments over SW related stuff. He's inspired me plenty of times.

[Eris Alexiel]

I still found Hayden and Portman a little too boring, they just have no chemistry to me so the scenes with them together just seemed wooden and I found myself talking to Zeke and resting my head on his shoulder in boredom....

and I had a hard time keeping up with the fights, the action was just too fast at points so I had a hard time figuring out what hit what or missed what...

I found I wasn't bored as much though as the past two, my interest was held whenever the wooden couple wasn't on....and I found myself smirking a bit when I noticed some martial arts stances I've learned...

overall I guess all was well with this one, I had fun watching it for the most part.....

[JMK]

What we need to do is go back and collect all of Doc's posts and save them in a thread. Call it 'Doc's musings on the SW galaxy' or something. As CMJ said, it would be a great referene for the rest of us when we get into arguments. :D

[Tiberius Anar]

I doff my hat to the deepest fan I have encountered. It all makes sense now.

*ecstatic smile*

[Darth McBain]

Great post Doc! Good stuff in there...

[Ishan Shade]

Haha check out this site someone sent me:

http://darthno.ytmnd.com/

WARNING, contains a spoiler image/sound from EpIII***

[MercZ]

Yea, those guys on YTMND had a NOOOOO fad that everyone made.

Anyways, I guess I'll give my opinion on the movie, and I'll try to keep it short.

I overall liked the movie. It had some great action and I felt it ended well. The effects were good, but the acting wasn't really top-notch. Hayden wasn't that much of a good actor, I thought he would've improved a bit, but he hasn't. Despite that, I think I'd give the movie between an 8.5-9.0.