Kevin Smith on ROTS and Other Reviews

[JediBoricua]

You've probably read this already, but to those who haven't here it is. This was posted on the ViewAskew (sp?) Forum by Kevin Smith himself.

I only read the first and last line and all I have to say is: :crack

<a href=http://www.aintitcoolnews.com/display.cgi?id=20046>KS Review Here</a> (Lotsa cursing there)

[Lilaena De'Ville]

I'm not reading the spoilers, but you need to edit out the bad words into good ones like "lollipops." Setting off the swear filter has always been a no-no here. :)

[JMK]

Bad boy Boricua! ;)

I saw that review on his website but decided not to post it here because it's just too much. I read 2 spoilers deep and decided to run away. But if that's not a ringing endorsement for the movie, then I don't know what is.

[Jedieb]

I read that yesterday as well. Good stuff. Are we finally going to get a movie that will have miniscule B&M'ing afterwards? I think so, I really do.

[JMK]

God do I feel ignorant, but what the hell is B&M? Does it rhyme with itching & moaning?

[Nathanial K'cansce]

Complaining and moaning, but with a B. :)

ANd I read that the other day as well... the Force was flowing, let me tell ya.

[Darth McBain]

Yeah, that's my theory... :)

I read that earlier - I finally succumbed to the Dark Side and have been reading spoilers. His review is very positive for an awesome Ep. III. We already knew it was gonna rock, but it's good to see an official review saying so...

[JediBoricua]

Sorry 'bout all the swearing.

I'll just post a link to the review (It's from AICN, so be wary).

[JediBoricua]

Anogther glowing review, this one from an Australian Paper.

Edited for Spoilers

This star shines: excellent end to an epic

By MICHAEL BODEY

May 5, 2005

GEORGE Lucas has rewarded those who kept with the force for almost 30 years with a barnstorming conclusion to his Star Wars saga.

Star Wars Episode III Revenge of the Sith faithfully combines some of Lucas's trademark shortcomings as a director with astonishing digital effects, a terrific last few reels and wonderful light-sabre rattling.

Revenge of the Sith, the third of the modern prequels to 1977's Star Wars, ditches the petty politicking and tedious back stories that made Attack of the Clones and The Phantom Menace so laborious.

It opens with EDITED emphasises just how advanced film technology has become – the colours are vivid and the detail is so minute they're almost wasted.

A new villain is introduced, a wheezing Terminator-type, General Grievous, while Padme Amidala (Natalie Portman) reintroduces the bread roll hair bun, showing how Revenge of the Sith maintains a sense of history while keeping it fresh for the kids. Nevertheless, the early battle scenes and sub plots are almost too much to consume.

It's all mildly irrelevant any way, as we know this film has one task – to transform Anakin Skywalker (Hayden Christensen) into Darth Vader, the man Obi-Wan Kenobi described in Return of the Jedi as "more machine than man, twisted and evil".

Lucas ensures the film is both twisted and evil, creating a quandary for some parents. The violence is heightened, both explicitly, EDITED , and implicitly in one chilling scene showing just how low Jedi Anakin will stoop. I'd be reticent to take any child under 10.

They won't understand the essence of why the film really heats up, when Anakin kills and betrays.

Without spoiling it, he has authority and revenge issues. He also has designs, fuelled by the mischievous Chancellor Palpatine (Ian McDiarmid) on ruling the galaxy.

The weight of the series, and some good plotting, mean this crucial development works, despite Christensen.

While he and Portman work far better together in this film, Christensen is cheesy when it matters. You'd blame the director but Ewan McGregor (Obi-Wan) and McDiarmid deliver strong, individual performances. And you can throw in Yoda, who's at his feisty, entertaining best.

The last 45 minutes of this film is enough to forgive Lucas's prior misdemeanours. It's angry, fiery and occasionally brilliant.

Australian actors involved in the film might not be so happy though. Only Bruce Spence (as Tion Medon) has meaningful dialogue, thus completing his honour of acting in the Mad Max, Matrix, Lord of the Rings and Star Wars trilogies.

Other Aussies spotted include Graeme Blundell, Trisha Noble and Joel Edgerton.

The Aussie crew has reason to be proud. The sets are terrific and technically, it's hard to fault anything other than occasional lapses in continuity.

[JMK]

Originally posted by JediBoricua
Anogther glowing review, this one from an Australian Paper.

Edited for Spoilers
The last 45 minutes of this film is enough to forgive Lucas's prior misdemeanours. It's angry, fiery and occasionally brilliant.


That may be the highest praise yet, because as far as I'm concerned Lucas is going to have to achieve a helluvalot with RotS in order to shut up the detractors of TPM and AotC. So far from all indications, he's done that.

[JMK]

There's four new reviews up at theforce.net.

While all are positive and confirm that RotS is indeed the best of the prequels, they are reviewed by Star Wars fans and may temper your enthusiasm and optimism a bit. So far I think we've been led to believe that this will be a perfect movie in every way, but after reading the reviews, some of Lucas' old habits are still with him, namely awkward pacing, some strange editing, cheesy acting, and things happening way to fast to be believed as a natural progression of things.

Oh well. I still can't wait!

[Darth McBain]

Originally posted by JMK
There's four new reviews up at theforce.net.

While all are positive and confirm that RotS is indeed the best of the prequels, they are reviewed by Star Wars fans and may temper your enthusiasm and optimism a bit. So far I think we've been led to believe that this will be a perfect movie in every way, but after reading the reviews, some of Lucas' old habits are still with him, namely awkward pacing, some strange editing, cheesy acting, and things happening way to fast to be believed as a natural progression of things.

Oh well. I still can't wait!

I don't think any of the movies are "perfect" -- the flaws haven't dampened my feelings for them - some of the "flaws" are what makes them endearing... I'm sure with ROTS there will be things that we don't love - there will probably be a few "groaners" in there, but overall I think it's gonna be a great show and a terrific end to the saga...

[CMJ]

David Poland of thehotbutton.com also has a blog these days(which he writes in way more). He put this review up yesterday.

http://www.mcnblogs.com/thehotblog/archives/2005/05/the_sith_are_ba.html

[Jedi Master Carr]

Cool, also Variety has its review up and it is glowing

http://www.variety.com/VE1117927015.html

That is a great review, I don't McCarthy loved the other two as much as he did this one.
Also I am going to edit the title to Kevin Smith and other reviews to try to keep all the reviews in one thread for now.

[Anbira Hicchoru]

Reviews are starting to show up on rotten tomatoes. 100% fresh so far ;)

[Figrin D'an]

Originally posted by JMK
... some of Lucas' old habits are still with him, namely awkward pacing, some strange editing, cheesy acting, and things happening way to fast to be believed as a natural progression of things.



It wouldn't be a Star Wars film without such things.

[JediBoricua]

Two more glowing reviews, edited for spoilers as well (I love the No Spoiler Forum at TF.net)

From mixedreviews.net:

While it's safe to say that STAR WARS, EPISODE III: REVENGE OF THE SITH will not be in competition for the Best Film Oscar next year, the story might be different if there were a category for Most Improved. For surely under that criteria, it would win in a walk. Its two predecessors in the Star Wars canon -- the dreary and dour Phantom Menace and the incoherent Attack of the Clones -- not only disappointed fans and confused casual audiences, but also sullied memories of the original 1970's trilogy, diluting the saga of the Skywalker clan and their imaginative universe. For many, the newest efforts by George Lucas can still be summed up in one phrase: Jar Jar Binks.

Which will make the experience of the final film in the series, REVENGE OF THE SITH, an unexpectedly sweet pleasure. A dark and gripping slice of space opera, it successfully avoids the pitfalls of its predecessors with a dense but cohesive narrative, strong character development, and a grand, epic struggle between the forces of good and evil. The Star Wars-ian mythology is expanded in careful detail, with new additions to the legends as it comes to its conclusion.

Perhaps most importantly, director/screenwriter Lucas finds surprising and satisfying ways to connect this generation's characters (Anakin, Padme, et al) to the next (Luke, Leia), even as the modern triptych completes the circle back to where it all began: long, long ago in a galaxy far, far away.

REVENGE OF THE SITH is, ultimately, about the transforming fall from grace of Anakin Skywalker (Hayden Christensen), a particularly talented Jedi Knight who, through a combination of ambition and circumstance, feels a strong pull towards the Dark Side of the Force. The pull towards his new bride, Padme Amidala (Natalie Portman), is even stronger; it threatens both his relationship with the Jedi Council and his bond with mentor Obi-Wan Kenobi (Ewan McGregor). Confused and restless, Anakin takes some solace in the eerie comfort of Senator Palpatine (Ian McDiarmid), a politician with an agenda of his own; the war that has rocked the Republic is coming to a close, and a new order is coming...one that presages the Empire of Darth Vader and its diabolical Emperor.

Lucas breaks up the soapy politics and court intrigue with some astonishing action sequences, including EDITED and some vintage lightsaber action. With a clarity that has eluded him in previous outings, the director propels the Anakin/Padme love story with a velocity that will please even the most skeptical viewer. For comic relief, Lucas employs a gallery of old friends, including Yoda (EDITED); the comedy duo C-3PO and R2D2, who return to their wisecracking ways seen in The Empire Strikes Back; and most appealingly, Chewbacca, who appears in an extended sequence on the Wookie homeworld..EDITED

The computer-designed universe Lucas utilized in Menace and Clones seemed plastic and sterile, beautiful landscapes that lacked any sense of life. Thankfully, technology has progressed enough in REVENGE OF THE SITH to make the backdrops pulsate with energy and vibrancy. Sequences on lava-covered mining worlds, inside space cruisers, and on the expansive floor of the Imperial Senate almost crackle with intensity; finally, Lucas' vision has borne fruit, making CGI an emotional medium as well as a visual one.

The non-CGI actors -- look Ma, real humans! -- contain some pleasant surprises, too. Christensen is given the thankless task of trasmogrifying into Darth Vader, one of the most iconic characters in the history of cinema. His smoldering rage and jealous fury doesn't quite make it all the way, but it's enough to suspend disbelief. (Who knew that adolescent rebellion could change the face of an entire universe?) McGregor seems to be having a marvelous time turning Obi-Wan into a futuristic swashbuckler, as does McDiarmid, who gleefully employs every villainous trick in the book except twirling a mustache.

Lucas' screenplay is his strongest in years, and even contains a few barely-concealed critiques of the Bush Administration and the Iraq War. The commentaries on democracy are offered in direct counterpoint to a government that is clearly overstepping its bounds, and the parallels are obvious to anyone looking for them. While Bush might not be an evil emperor (yet), it's not that far a trip from Senator Palpatine to Tom DeLay.

Its contemporary resonance, however, is subtle, and never gets in the way of the entertaining journey. REVENGE OF THE SITH may not be the series' best (that title still goes to Empire), but it can comfortably sit in a place of privilege among Lucas' six efforts. In the end, its greatest accomplishment may be to nullify the weaknesses of other, lesser installments. The lingering memories of Jar-Jar are forgiven (almost); George Lucas has shown us how to dream of galaxies again...and how fun he can make an afternoon at the movies.

-- Gabriel Shanks



From cinemablend.com:

Release Date: 2005-05-19
Reviewed by Joshua Tyler: 2005-05-05

FIVE STARS

I still remember the first time I really became aware of George Lucas. Not more than eight, I discovered an especially careworn copy of an Empire Strikes Back novelization buried in the bleak looking Science Fiction section of my tiny local library. Naturally, I assumed that Star Wars was in fact a book before it was a movie, and that this George Lucas must surely be the greatest writer who had ever written. Over the next few years I’d eventually read every book on those shelves, but when asked my favorite author my response would invariably be “George Lucas”.

I remember all the magazine articles and photos too; the shots of George Lucas at Skywalker Ranch, surrounded by his creations, pictures of him standing next to a miniature of the Millennium Falcon. In the eyes of millions of kids, the guy became a legend. We swarmed to anything that had his name on it, ate up every Ewok Adventure or Star Wars Christmas Special because we knew George Lucas had created it. We didn’t just love Star Wars we loved the mythos of George Lucas, a man who somehow seemed magical.

By coincidence, my wedding fell three days after the opening of The Phantom Menace. My bachelor party wasn’t spent on strippers or a massive kegger. No, for my bachelor party we saw The Phantom Menace. My last night of freedom, and I wasted it watching a mentally challenged alien step in poop. Never has anyone brought so much happiness and hope to so many people as George Lucas, only to turn around and crush those same people with unbelievable frustration and disappointment. He’s exhausted our patience and battered our dreams with his prequels, soiling the name of a thing that, like it or not, to a lot of people truly meant something. On second thought, maybe he was only kidding with all the bad movie making.

Because Revenge of the Sith is the movie he ought to have made right from the beginning. This is the story he kept promising he’d tell, the movie we’ve all kept hoping he’ll make. The other two Star Wars prequels are utterly irrelevant; this film could have existed without them. It’s a perfect fit with the glorious originals and unlike the previous prequels it only betters them.

Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith begins at a torrid pace and never lets up. Obi Wan (Ewan McGregor) and Anakin (Hayden Christensen) appear in the midst of EDITED.

There’s no need to pause for character development, as Lucas’s exceptionally well crafted script melds deeper growth and personality right in with the action. He establishes the strong friendship between Anakin and Obi Wan immediately, in a way that was never evidenced in Attack of the Clones. This was always one of the great strengths of the original Star Wars movies, an uncanny ability to tell us volumes about its characters while in the middle of a wild ride through a meteor shower, or rescuing a princess from her torture chamber. Writer/Director Lucas has finally recaptured that here, and the film absolutely soars because of it.

EDITED Sith dips deeper and deeper into its inevitable storyline of corruption and failure. There are moments of celebration and fantastic locales (like Kashyyk, the much anticipated Wookieee planet) particularly in the beginning of the film, but even those are tinged with the knowledge that the heroes of this story are being deceived. The movie gets dark, and puts its PG-13 rating to good use. I’m not talking about gore here, I don’t think that’s the only reason this movie got that rating.

Revenge of the Sith is simply too heavy and too intense to be a meager PG.

Watching Padme struggle to love Anakin is wrenching, and cringing through his slow personality slip into evil is brutally heartbreaking. There’s a real sense that something important is being lost, as Palpatine’s plans come to fruition and the old Galactic order is pulled viciously asunder. I’m not talking about vague, political mumbo jumbo, but rather something more personal and ideological.

If anything, this fantasy film is a rather poignant warning on the dangers of fear mongering. A lesson on the evil men can do while wrapping themselves in the mantle of freedom, democracy, and safety. As Anakin himself points out later in the film, it all depends on your point of view. Words that are later echoed from the lips of Obi Wan, when instructing Anakin’s son Luke. That’s the kind of highly tuned resonance Revenge of the Sith has. There’s a real sense not only that the vibrations of this film mean something to this universe down the road, but that they might have some application to our world as well. Maybe Lucas is finally getting around to starting that religion so many people have been pushing for, but I prefer to think that the man has at last re-found his footing as a relevant filmmaker.

One of the big Achilles heels of the previous two films was acting, something that can’t necessarily be fixed with a better script like this. Granted, better dialogue certainly helps, but the Star Wars prequels thus far have had the disturbing ability to turn even usually stellar actors into wooden, stilted performers. However Lucas has regained his footing as an all around filmmaker, not just a writer.

Whether as a result of better direction or simply greater confidence in the material, Natalie Portman’s work has taken leaps and bounds over her previously awkward portrayal of Amidala. McGregor too simply seems more comfortable in his role, and the chemistry between Kenobi and Anakin really hits. The biggest surprise though is Hayden Christiansen, who turns things up a notch to steal scenes from brilliant veteran actors like Ian McDiarmid. I’m not ready to declare him a great actor, but I think he’s finally nailed Anakin down. It’s not just reciting his lines either, he’s taken on an incredibly imposing physical presence, with Lucas going out of his way to make pre-Vader Anakin feel like the powerful, hulking figure he’ll become once he puts on that suit.

Revenge of the Sith isn’t just a great Star Wars movie, it’s a flat out great film. Yes it’s technically proficient and yes it’s visually beautiful. Those things are a given. What hasn’t been is how solidly the film is constructed. Revenge of the Sith is a powerful, big budget experience. Yet it is the way that it fits so wonderfully into the existing Star Wars mythos that best sells it, the way it nestles so nicely into 1977’s Episode IV: A New Hope that makes it special. The real beauty is that you could easily toss out the previous two awkward attempts, watch only this in sequence with the original films, and come out completely satisfied. Attack of the Clones and The Phantom Menace are best forgotten. Lucas’s real miscalculation was in not making this movie right from the start. He tried to stretch the story when all we needed was Vader’s rise in its purest form. Star Wars fans have finally been rewarded for their patience. This is it, don’t miss out.

[JediBoricua]

9 to 1 in RT.com.

The only rotten one is not that bad either.

Somebody *pinch* me.

[JediBoricua]

Harry Knowles has his review up and I have to post this here. You can it unedited if you want. I got goosebumps reading this.

Harry Knowles review (AICN):

I have watched my last new STAR WARS film.

Really don’t know what to say. I’ve wanted to see Obi-Wan fight Vader on that Lava Planet since that issue of Starlog in 1978. My 6 year old reading comprehension grasping for every word of every article I could get my grubby little hands on. For me, the origin of Vader has been the Holy Grail of my geek soul. That story most coveted, but yet untold. I’m 33 years old now. 27 years lay between me and that boy that dreamt of that fight – but right now, he’s on my shoulders and we’re slapping high-fives.

The imagery in REVENGE OF THE SITH -- EDITED. These are all near religious iconography in the minds of children raised in the ways of the Force. I’ve spent a quarter of a century discussing these things, speculating on what it’d look like, how it’d play out… I’ve seen it in countless dreams, but never with my eyes open. Never George’s dream of what it was. Till now.

As I sat at the Regal Metropolitan Theater in South Austin watching the film – I couldn’t help but get caught up in it. Dad was there with me, we’ve spent countless years talking STAR WARS – through STAR WARS – I learnt of the source material George was smashing and grabbing from – B serials, Pulp sci-fantasy adventure romances, Asian cinema – all of it. Before STAR WARS – I was well on my way – after STAR WARS the road was poured. I would be a geek for the rest of my life.

That would mean, I’d be primed to openly weep as EDITED. It is a very powerful thing to see the dreams one has spent a quarter of a century pondering. It might be cheese ball of me, but dammit – this is exactly what I wanted out of this last STAR WARS film… closure.

I’m having a really hard time writing about this one. It’s just so damn big. So full of literally everything that I wanted to see in all the prequels – but crammed all into this one. This really is the big Michael Corleone episode of STAR WARS… It’s where all the traps are sprung, all the cards are laid on the table, where everybody dies, all is lost and evil rules the galaxy.

That’s what makes the film so damn hard to talk about, at least off a first viewing. Let me see if I can explain this.

We all know how dark this film is intended to be. We all know how incredibly dire things will turn out in this film. However, the first 40 minutes are so light… as to be completely disconcerting. There’s just a feeling that THEY shouldn’t be having fun. Don’t they know this is the last smiles they’ll share? EDITED...Don’t they know that? WE DO, why can’t they see what’s coming? WAKE UP!

The film makes you powerless to change things. It’s like sitting still for a ******* tragedy right from the get go, but unlike TITANIC, you don’t have it all spelt out yet. Unless you’ve read all the spoilers – and I don’t really know what you spoiler-lovers will think. Just because for me… I knew, basically, what was going to happen. The broad strokes. I’ve gone out of my way to ignore as many spoilers as possible – which is a near impossible thing to do when you’re being emailed by everyone on Earth 300 images a day, 40 reviews a day now and were sent all the books, comics, score, everything from Publicity firms… ****… I bought that Talking Yoda toy – and next thing I know the little Green Bastard is trying to tell me the story of REVENGE OF THE SITH. It’s so hard to be pure on this – there’s just so much information out there. Everywhere.

The most shocking or surprising emotion I felt during this film experience is that… I don’t want Anakin to become Darth Vader. I just… Despite 27 years to the contrary, as I sat in that theater watching the last act of a good Jedi that turned evil… I just found myself wanting to scream at him to stop. EDITED. I wanted Anakin to let go of his hate, fear, ambition, jealousy and self-centered egotism and just be the knight in shining armor… FOR THE GOOD GUYS!

You can tell… Anakin so wants to do what is right. He even does the right things, it’s just everyone around him doesn’t treat him as an equal… save for Palpatine. That when push comes to shove, the only ******* rat bas**** in the galaxy that is going to call him son, tell him ‘fairy tales’ and really listen to his problems enough to find out what is REALLY troubling him is the bad guy!

Why?

Because the whole damn galaxy is at war, because to everyone else, Anakin’s existential crisis doesn’t amount to a hill of beans, they’ve got bigger fish to fry. They’ve got to Protect Wookies and the mushroom people and Hellraiser’s home planet and kill lots of robots and General Grievous and police the ******* universe… and… and… well, their damn domestic policy sucks!

The Bad Guy has his priorities right. He’s controlling the robots, the clones and to a large extent the Jedi… yet still manages to multi-task enough to listen to Anakin EDITED. He'll take the time, to ignore an amazing science fiction zero G Esther Williams number, to tell young Skywalker EDITED. A story, an anecdote. And he tells it, like a father would to a son.

EDITED. He doesn’t tell Anakin bull**** like… learn to not give a ****, detachment is the key to inner peace… What sort of bull**** is that? EDITED. WHAT SORT OF ******* JEDI WISDOM IS THAT **** YODA??? THAT'S NOT REALLY HELPFUL YOU NEGATIVE GREEN TURD!

My god. The Jedi really are a bunch of goody two shoe clueless *****. They’re so concerned with fixing the galaxy’s problems that they don’t have time for their own… and due to their unrealistic and inhumane rules about not loving or caring about anything other than the almighty “force” they created an air of fear for Skywalker. How could he level with them? How could he share with them? EDITED. Everyone is so busy being good little soldiers, that they just are not communicating.

Obi Wan never takes Anakin out for drinks and just levels with him. Sits him down and explains fascist totalitarianism. He doesn’t explain why sacrificing the most marginal freedoms to create a false sense of security enables those taking on those additional powers to create a greater evil than that which they fear. Hell, nobody really explains to Anakin why Democracy is better than Absolute Rule. Instead it is all this, “Search your feelings” ********. Turn to your ancient religion. This is why ultimately Luke Skywalker kicks ***. Because he doesn’t have all this dogmatic *** Because he’s got a buddy like Han Solo that’d be willing to bust *** across the galaxy to save his *** Somebody that has his back. FRIENDS! Because when the Sith hits the fan, it’s the love of your friends that’ll help you push through and kick *** Because Luke believes in twin sunsets, the good guys and saving his dad.

What does Anakin have? Who cares about Anakin? Well Obi Wan, but he doesn’t know how to show it. Yoda? He’s too busy being disturbed about the cosmic meaning of **** to even form a no ******** non fortune cookie sentence. Mace Windu? EDITED. Padme? She’s more concerned with her hair, her image, everybody’s standing and well being. And then Anakin himself? He’s told he’s the chosen one, the key that will make the galaxy unified. Yet, the only one empowering him to do that is the ******* Emperor.

I love how together Palpatine is. He’s just one of the greatest bad guys in the history of bad guys. He absolutely must be Karl Rove’s hero. Look at this. Palpatine has engineered so many things. The creation of the Droid armies, the creation of the Clone armies, his various Sith apprentices, Fall guys for Fall guys… all with the direct purpose of spreading his enemy so thin EDITED.

It’s like inviting your friends over for an all night session of game play and spreading cyanide on the ******* pizza. They’re all gonna eat it, cuz… dude… it’s what you do when you play games. The Jedi are fighting their war, doing Jedi ****. Kill the droids, tons of them. This **** is fun for them. They eat it up. This is their Frosted Flakes with Bananas. They finally got their Holy Crusade, woo hoo, a sense of purpose. EDITED.

It’s so beautifully laid out. It’s ******* immaculate. This is literally how you rule the universe. It is to be admired. And learnt from. Cuz as Padme says, "EDITED.” Exactly. Distractions, a clear and concise innocent front and cutthroat evil behind the scenes.

REVENGE OF THE SITH is a masterpiece. The final piece of the puzzle Lucas first presented me at age 6. 27 years later, the Jigsaw is complete and damn if it isn't just damn near the most tragically cool thing I’ve ever seen put to film. We won’t see another like this. This is it.

We’ll see enormous sci-fantasy told, with more focus and even grander visions in our lifetime… but we’ll never care as much about a story like this one. For our generation, Star Wars is our mythology. The big story we lived to see told the first time. For those of you that were kids in lines in 1977 through to the coming weeks… I have to say, it has been an absolute ******* honor to do this with y’all.

We all know where we each were at the opening of all these films. In two weeks… this is your last story. I’ll never see a new Star Wars movie with my father again. I’ll see many more movies – but this is the last Star Wars, I’ll ever see for the first time with my dad. I’ve seen all 6 with him. All on either the first day – or before. It’s the mythology he’s grown old with and helped me grow up with. This one counts, this one is beautiful. This is the last one.

I can’t possibly express how profoundly odd that is to type. How weird it makes me feel. I went out after the film – I went to find a toy to sit on my desk to look at while I typed this. I went through aisle after aisle of Star Wars stuff, and I couldn’t pick something out. I think the one I most thought was cool – was this Lego play set of Anakin and Obi Wan on Mustafa. You pressed down the Lego character’s head and the light sabers lit up. Gosh that’s cool. I’ll probably buy it for my nephew… Instead I came home, played the score to REVENGE OF THE SITH and wrote this.

Remember – this isn’t a Star Wars movie to cheer for, to erupt into applause and call cool. If you really love STAR WARS – this one is heart ache. Not only is it the end of a nearly 30 year journey for us… It really is the story of how things got so bad, that the good guys had to be a rebellion, where the Jedi had to hide and how evil ruled the galaxy. Wow, I’ve seen my last new Star Wars film. ****

[Jedi Master Carr]

I just put spoiler code around it in case anybody got upset. I know most of the spoilers in there but I am sure there might be some people who don't want to read it. About the review from mixed reviews, I find it surprising that he came up with the anti-bush thing, it might be because he is bias that way, heck the slant reviewer gave it a negative review because of that reason. Honestly, I don't know if Lucas was really doing that, I have always felt Palpatine resembled a combination of the rise to power of Augustus and Hitler.

[JediBoricua]

The anti-bush thing is something I'm seeing across the board.

Most of the reviewers get it from a line by Obi Wan that goes something like "Absolutes truths is sith talk"

[Jedieb]

I'm just getting ready to pour over the reviews at RT. I think it's clear that ROTS is going to fair much better with critics that TPM and AOTC. Most of the reviews so far seem to have a common thread, this is what fans have been waiting for, it's an improvement over the last two. Regardless of what you think of critics, I think it's a good sign that ROTS is faring better than the last 2 prequels. It's just an example of a movie viewing segment that ROTS has won over. It certainly is encouraging.

[JMK]

Agreed. Since 1999 it's been en vogue to bash Star Wars. A very vocal minority has given the prequels thus far a pretty bad reputation, deserved or not. The fact that RotS seems to be converting all the naysayers once again is very very encouraging.

[Jedi Master Carr]

One really bad review up by somebody from the Film Freak something. I discount him though. I went back on his earlier reviews and he gave ROTK about the same review and he hated Shrek 2, those two movies topped the box office the last two years.

[JediBoricua]

He also gave AOTC half a star. He is giving ROTS 2 stars, so I guess it's an improvement!

[Jedi Master Carr]

LOL true, He gave Shrek 2 one star, which I can't believe. Also he didn't really like any of the LOTR movies and he disliked ROTK the most, I think he called it uneven, whatever he doesn't sound like a good critic to me.

[JMK]

This guy sounds like he's a critic who's trying to make a name for himself by being extremely contrary to popular consensus.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I think you are right anybody who dislikes movies that make a lot of money usually are doing that. It is funny though he gave Spiderman 2 and Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban each 4 stars, maybe he is just inconsistent.

[Figrin D'an]

Berardinelli put up his review on his website:

http://movie-reviews.colossus.net/movies/s/sw2005.html

It's overwhelmingly positive. He did, however, give positive reviews to both TMP and AOTC as well, so people whom didn't like the first two might think his opinion is skewed.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Newsweek has a review up
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7773581/site/newsweek/

I call it a postive review for Ansen since he has bashed the last three Star Wars movie pretty heavily.

[General Ceel]

So far at RottenTomatoes:

Reviews counted: 14
Fresh: 12 Rotten: 2
Average Rating: 7.5/10

Its still early, but the film sure is off to a good start.

I have a pretty good collection of reviews taken from around the net started at another board if you want to see them all in one place without having to click through a dozen sites: http://p089.ezboard.com/fthegungancouncilfrm27.showMessage?topicID=1104.to pic

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

Originally posted by Jedi Master Carr
LOL true, He gave Shrek 2 one star, which I can't believe. Also he didn't really like any of the LOTR movies and he disliked ROTK the most, I think he called it uneven, whatever he doesn't sound like a good critic to me.

Yeah well, he gave The Sandlot 1 star. 1 star!! That movie is a childhood classic for me, I don't care what he says.

[Anbira Hicchoru]

Originally posted by s'Ilancy
Yeah well, he gave The Sandlot 1 star. 1 star!! That movie is a childhood classic for me, I don't care what he says.

What? Take him behind a woodshed and shoot him. No taste in movies at all...

[JediBoricua]

A quote from Berardinelli:

"How many people, I wonder, will return from seeing Revenge of the Sith and immediately pop A New Hope into the DVD player".

Many fans in TF.net have said this, now i know why George released the DVD's last year!!!!!! ;)

[Jedieb]

16 reviews and it's at 88% Fresh. I think we're going to end up over 80% when it's all said and done.

[JediBoricua]

Ebert and Roeper where on ET.

Roeper said it was on par with ESB, a huge thumbs up.

Ebert was going to give it a marginal thumbs down. I think he still has a grudge with digital filmaking...

[Jedi Master Carr]

Actually that has been debunked. Several people on theforce.net wated the ET weekends the guy from RottenTomatoes forum said it was on and they didn't see this review at all. I think this is some troll trying to get the Star Wars fans upset.

[General Ceel]

The speed at which rumors spread through the star wars community is astounding, lol

[Shawn]

Originally posted by Jedi Master Carr
LOL true, He gave Shrek 2 one star, which I can't believe.I hated Shrek 2. Where the first movie felt like a parody of classic fairytales, the second movie felt like a disjointed mockery of pop culture, and I don't think the movie is going to hold up so well in, say, 10 years. [/tangent]

I strongly disliked TPM. I really enjoyed AOTC but I felt like it had a few weak spots, largely because Lucas has no grasp on the concept of subtlety. Thankfully, I don't think that's going to be an issue with ROTS.

[Anbira Hicchoru]

I was ambivalent about TPM, but I really enjoyed AotC. I found all the backlash against it pretty bizarre. When I watch it now, the only real part that makes me groan is the fireplace scene.

[JediBoricua]

Yeah it's been debunked. I can't believe someone would lie on the internet!!! ;)

For me is the contrary, the more I see TPM the more I like it and the more I see AOTC the more I dislike it.

[JMK]

Originally posted by Anbira Hicchoru
I was ambivalent about TPM, but I really enjoyed AotC. I found all the backlash against it pretty bizarre. When I watch it now, the only real part that makes me groan is the fireplace scene.

I'm pretty much the same way. A lot of the scenes in TPM make me cringe, starting with the underwater sequence on Naboo. I just can't buy the fact that there are THAT many GIGANTIC creatures in their oceans. The poop/fart jokes, of which I think there are 3 in TPM are so out of place IMO. As far as AotC, I agree with you, the only scene that makes me want to fast forward is the fireplace scene. It's just so stilted. I get that Lucas made kiddie jokes, and kiddie characters in TPM to represent the tone/state of the galaxy at the time, but I think there are other ways to go about achieving that. AotC improved that aspect very much by going away from crappy kiddie jokes to using stronger tones like cynicism and ambiguity.

[Jedieb]

ANH - 93% Fresh
Reviews counted: 42
Fresh: 39 Rotten: 3
Average Rating: 8.1/10

ESB - 98%
Reviews counted: 46
Fresh: 45 Rotten: 1
Average Rating: 8.5/10

ROTJ - 80%
Reviews counted: 40
Fresh: 32 Rotten: 8
Average Rating: 6.7/10

TPM - 62%
Reviews counted: 142
Fresh: 88 Rotten: 54
Average Rating: 6/10

AOTC - 65%
Reviews counted: 195
Fresh: 126 Rotten: 69
Average Rating: 6.5/10

ROTS - 89%
Reviews counted: 18
Fresh: 16 Rotten: 2
Average Rating: 7.9/10

Damn, my rankings for the first 5 follow the percentages. I'm such a lemming...

I think ROTS is going to come in ahead of ROTJ. I'd be stunned if it falls below 80% after such a good start. I'll be interested in Ebert's review. I think the digital camera really turned him off of AOTC after his thumb's up of TPM. I wonder if Sith will bring him back around.

[Shawn]

Originally posted by JMK
I get that Lucas made kiddie jokes, and kiddie characters in TPM to represent the tone/state of the galaxy at the time, but I think there are other ways to go about achieving that. AotC improved that aspect very much by going away from crappy kiddie jokes to using stronger tones like cynicism and ambiguity. While there are still 1 or 2 kiddie jokes in AOTC, there's also a good deal of humor that doesn't resort to "bantha poodoo" level humor. I liked it.

The more I've been thinking about TPM lately, the more I realize that it was a completely pointless movie. Virtually nothing in the movie contributes to the overall story, aside from introducing us to a handful of characters. I think AOTC could have easily been released as Episode I, with a few minor changes, and it would have been greeted much more warmly.

[CMJ]

TPM = The Hobbit

In other words it sets up charcters but doesn't have much to do with the REAL story.

So far this looks really good as far as ROTS goes. Of course I really did love AOTC. I have it ranked higher than ROTJ for cripes sakes.

[Shawn]

Originally posted by CMJ
TPM = The HobbitI agree 100% (except that I liked the Hobbit better than LOTR, but that's an altogether different discussion).

TPM could have been released after the new trilogy was finished as a, erm, prequel (or a side-story, however you prefer). But I think it was an incredibly disappointing first chapter in the story and has still left a sour taste in many people's mouths to this day.

[JMK]

That's a very strong comparison, and it works. TPM really does add nothing, except for, like you said, introducing some new faces. Infact, the things it DID add are not very good. Midichlorians? Remember those? I wish I didn't.

Lucas will probably say that's all a first movie is supposed to do, but it doesn't mean that the movie can be riddled with problems.

I still like TPM, infact it's the SW movie I watched most recently, but some things about it just leave me feeling totally empty.

ANH was able to stand on its own because Lucas never knew if he was going to do ESB & RotJ. TPM could have been made to stand on its own somehow.

[Jedieb]

http://movie-reviews.colossus.net/movies/s/sw2005.html

This review by by James Berardinelli is my favorite so far. A positive review that still acknowledges some of the weaknesses of the Prequels and even this last installment. It's not a total stroke job, but when he says that this is the best SW movie since ESB I think he'll end up being quite accurate.

TPM issues
The problems I have had with TPM have always come down to execution. I dont mind seeing Anakin as a young child, I just wish a better actor would have been selected. I don't mind comic relief, I just wish Jar Jar had been written differently and performed by another actor (why didn't Lucas ask Robin Williams for some help?). I don't mind political intrigue (Senate scenes, blockade of Naboo), these can be very interesting, but again, they have to be executed correctly.

We're 6 years removed from TPM and to say it hasn't aged well is an understatement. I'll wager that the same won't be true of ROTS 6 years from now. I'm hoping that it will fit in so nicely with the OT that many people will put in Episodes III-VI and they'll all blend together perfectly.

[JediBoricua]

91% at RT.com.

I'm still bracing for the negative ones to star pouring in, although I can't see it going under 80.

[Anbira Hicchoru]

We've gotten glowing reviews from some media sources with actual "street cred". Variety, BBC, Newsweek, Hollywood Reporter, to name a few, have all sung praises over it.

[Dasquian Belargic]

I'm getting so hyped reading all of this :crack

[JMK]

Originally posted by Jedieb
http://movie-reviews.colossus.net/movies/s/sw2005.html

This review by by James Berardinelli is my favorite so far. A positive review that still acknowledges some of the weaknesses of the Prequels and even this last installment. It's not a total stroke job, but when he says that this is the best SW movie since ESB I think he'll end up being quite accurate.

TPM issues
The problems I have had with TPM have always come down to execution. I dont mind seeing Anakin as a young child, I just wish a better actor would have been selected. I don't mind comic relief, I just wish Jar Jar had been written differently and performed by another actor (why didn't Lucas ask Robin Williams for some help?). I don't mind political intrigue (Senate scenes, blockade of Naboo), these can be very interesting, but again, they have to be executed correctly.

We're 6 years removed from TPM and to say it hasn't aged well is an understatement. I'll wager that the same won't be true of ROTS 6 years from now. I'm hoping that it will fit in so nicely with the OT that many people will put in Episodes III-VI and they'll all blend together perfectly.

TPM was well intentioned, but like you said, it was poorly executed. The political intrigue part really sticks out. For a senate that apparently takes so long to decide everything, they certainly ditched Valorum pretty quickly and replaced him with Palpatine in a flash. The same thing happens in AotC when Palpatine accepts his 'new authority' and declares that he will build a grand army of the republic...and *poof* an entire military force is all of a sudden ready to go...complete with thousands upon thousands of troops, gunships and starships. Weird if you ask me, but I can live with that. Like you said Eb, it all comes down to execution, and Lucas is so preoccupied with coming on time with his movies that he just speeds things along at breakneck speeds to the detriment to proper development.

Hopefully RotS can correct that, though it sounds like the movie moves pretty quickly through things.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Well I think Palpatine was manipulating everyone probably using his sith abilities to get senators on his side. Heck he might have been the reason for the corruption in the first place. Also 92% now and RT hasn't counted two postive reviews yet, one from Time the other from a british reviewer named Cline.

[JMK]

A thread that I want to start is one that discusses exactly how much of the events in the prequels Palpatine set up. But before starting that I want to see RotS, maybe the question is answered there.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Yeah that is something I am not sure about, I figure most of the political stuff he did set up other things, I am not sure about.

[Jedieb]

A thread that I want to start is one that discusses exactly how much of the events in the prequels Palpatine set up. But before starting that I want to see RotS, maybe the question is answered there.
Palpy set EVERYTHING up. He is the king of evil geniuses. He took on 10,000 Jedi Knights with only revolving Sith Apprentices and WON. He didn't just beat them, he utterly destroyed the Jedi Order and got control of the galaxy in the process. Yes, eventually he gets tossed down a shaft. It reminds me of a mafia cartoon I read years ago in an issue of Mad. It shows a Don on his deathbed. At the end he finally pays for his crimes. However, he's over 100 years old, dies in his mansion, surrounded by gorgeous young women. Yep, he got his.

I am totally stoked that we are over 90%. I never really expected this. ROTS is getting received by critics in the same manner that ANH and ESB were. (Despite Lucas' claims that the critics have "never'" liked SW.) This isn't going to be the greatest thing since slice bread, but it's going to be a damn good movie. Sweeeeeeeeeeet.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I know 93% right now, I am very surprised.

[Yog]

If it ends up over 90%, its a sign this is not only a great SW movie, but its likely going to be a well received movie in general, with good word of mouth. I am pondering what kind of effect this will have on the box office.

Judging by what I have seen from spoilers and reviews, I am expecting it to be at least on par with ROTJ, likely even surpassing it. It might even rank up there along with ANH and ESB. Now that would be a very high recognition from me, because I always concidered the prequels VASTLY inferior to the original trilogy so far (I especially found TPM incredible disappointing).

For the record, I am not so fond about learning how Anaking grew up as a kid, infinitively boring political drama and discussion, silly crap from Jar Jar + other CGI aliens, artificial and awkard teenage "love scenes" or dry and wooden dialogue with no impact or importance. This is STAR WARS, not episode 2492 of Star Trek. I expect better from George. Not only entertaining Science Fiction, but CLASSIC science fiction.

I want to learn how Vader and The Emperor came into power with the same kind of exciting story telling which captured our imaginations and got us into SW in the first place. Nothing more, nothing less.

A lot up until this point felt like a story not needed to be told. Now finally, we are going to get the movie we all waited for. I believe the Force is with this one. The magic is back.

[JMK]

Originally posted by Jedieb
Palpy set EVERYTHING up. He is the king of evil geniuses. He took on 10,000 Jedi Knights with only revolving Sith Apprentices and WON. He didn't just beat them, he utterly destroyed the Jedi Order and got control of the galaxy in the process. Yes, eventually he gets tossed down a shaft. It reminds me of a mafia cartoon I read years ago in an issue of Mad. It shows a Don on his deathbed. At the end he finally pays for his crimes. However, he's over 100 years old, dies in his mansion, surrounded by gorgeous young women. Yep, he got his.


At what point do his machinations start? Did he set up the siege on Naboo KNOWING that the Queen's ship would be damaged and that they would make a detour on Tatooine for repairs and find this little brat made up of midichlorians in the process?

How did he Palpatine KNOW that the Trade Federation Viceroy would go to Dooku for help?

Politically I believe he was able to orchestrate everything, that much I can buy into. Corrupting bureaucrats and senators doesn't seem to be too tough a task. But plotting the meeting & subsequent uprooting of Anakin is something I find to be far too random. Their ship could have been destroyed...should have been destroyed, but they made it out.

There's a hundred ways we could discuss this, but I prefer to think that Palpatine had set up the siege of Naboo and that Anakin's role in this was unexpected until Palpy realized his potential as a Sith.

And then what about Shmi? It seems Anakin is on the fast track to the dark side after his mom croaks...did he set up her death too? Or is that another event that conveniently works out to Palpatine's advantage?

Or is Vader really just a pawn in the whole thing? Of course there's probably a lot too that. The Emperor doesn't really care about anyone. He was going to take over the galaxy with or without Anakin's help, but having Anakin to destroy the Jedi from the inside certainly helped his cause.

The line that defines what Palpatine planned and what just sort of happened to work out for him is very very blurry because it all works out so wonderfully for him.

[Jedieb]

For the record, I am not so fond about learning how Anaking grew up as a kid, infinitively boring political drama and discussion, silly crap from Jar Jar + other CGI aliens, artificial and awkard teenage "love scenes" or dry and wooden dialogue with no impact or importance. This is STAR WARS, not episode 2492 of Star Trek. I expect better from George. Not only entertaining Science Fiction, but CLASSIC science fiction.

I want to learn how Vader and The Emperor came into power with the same kind of exciting story telling which captured our imaginations and got us into SW in the first place. Nothing more, nothing less.

A lot up until this point felt like a story not needed to be told. Now finally, we are going to get the movie we all waited for. I believe the Force is with this one. The magic is back.
That sums up over half the reviews I've read so far.

I'm betting that come Oscar time ROTS will also become the first Prequel to bring home some statues. No, not best picture prizes, but FX, sound, set design, etc. It's going to get recognized by the Academy.

[JMK]

Agreed, RotS is going to win some Oscars this time around. Not the big ones, but several technical ones.

[Darth McBain]

Originally posted by JMK
Agreed, RotS is going to win some Oscars this time around. Not the big ones, but several technical ones.

Lets hope so - SW isn't best picture material, but it is time that it gets at least some recognition by the academy...

[Jedi Master Carr]

Originally posted by JMK
At what point do his machinations start? Did he set up the siege on Naboo KNOWING that the Queen's ship would be damaged and that they would make a detour on Tatooine for repairs and find this little brat made up of midichlorians in the process?

How did he Palpatine KNOW that the Trade Federation Viceroy would go to Dooku for help?

Politically I believe he was able to orchestrate everything, that much I can buy into. Corrupting bureaucrats and senators doesn't seem to be too tough a task. But plotting the meeting & subsequent uprooting of Anakin is something I find to be far too random. Their ship could have been destroyed...should have been destroyed, but they made it out.

There's a hundred ways we could discuss this, but I prefer to think that Palpatine had set up the siege of Naboo and that Anakin's role in this was unexpected until Palpy realized his potential as a Sith.

And then what about Shmi? It seems Anakin is on the fast track to the dark side after his mom croaks...did he set up her death too? Or is that another event that conveniently works out to Palpatine's advantage?

Or is Vader really just a pawn in the whole thing? Of course there's probably a lot too that. The Emperor doesn't really care about anyone. He was going to take over the galaxy with or without Anakin's help, but having Anakin to destroy the Jedi from the inside certainly helped his cause.

The line that defines what Palpatine planned and what just sort of happened to work out for him is very very blurry because it all works out so wonderfully for him.

I don't think Palpatine new the Queen would land on Tatooine, I dobut he knew about Anakin, but once he found out about him he wanted him as his future apprentice. I am not sure about Shimi's death. I thought at one time Palpatine was behind it but unless that is said in ROTS I doubt that is the case. It is just a coincidence that works in his favor. Finally about Dooku, well I think Dooku went to Gunrey but that is just my speculation and what I gathered from Labrinth of Evil.

[JMK]

So Dooku went to Gunray (according to Labrynth of Evil) yet told Obi Wan that Gunray came to him? I guess that could make some sense seeing as though he was trying to blow sunshine up Obi Wan's skirt, but I can't help but groan over all these little questions that require all kinds of research to answer.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Well Dooku was lying half the time with Obi-Wan, trying to play with his mind. I can't remember the excat context of how Dooku and Gunrey met for sure, I know it was infered somewhat, what happened.

[JMK]

Another thing I hope is answered: Who the hell is Sifo-Dyas? Is he simply a Jedi Master who ordered the creation of a clone army without the Council knowing about it? Why would he order it if not asked by Sidious to do so?

For those who know the answer already from the novel etc, if you'd like to answer this question, a simple yes or no will do: Does RotS tackle the Sifo-Dyas issue?

[Anbira Hicchoru]

Originally posted by JMK
For those who know the answer already from the novel etc, if you'd like to answer this question, a simple yes or no will do: Does RotS tackle the Sifo-Dyas issue?

no

[Jedi Master Carr]

It is answered in the book labrinth of Evil, basically Dooku and syno are friends and after he leaves the order he convices him to do the order as in the best interest in the republic. He then kills him.

[JMK]

Damn. I didn't think so. That blows because I think that angle is terribly done. Almost embarassingly badly executed.

Who was that guy and what was he doing???? :headache

[Darth McBain]

I tend to agree, JMK. That was one point they should definitely cover in Ep. III instead of leaving it open.

As for Palpatine's machinations, I think it's a combination of him being able to foresee certain things through the force, but more just that he knows how to twist events in his favor. I don't think he had every single detail planned out and perfectly executed - I think he's very opportunistic in that he can react quickly to changing situations and continue to work them in his favor. I think the sequence of events we're seeing in the prequels could easily have gone in entirely different directions had things worked out differently, but almost undoubtedly they would have eventually worked out in Palpatine's favor.

[JMK]

Yeah, like I said earlier, Palpatine was going to take over with or without Anakin. I'm sure having Anakin on his side hastened the process though.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Originally posted by JMK
Damn. I didn't think so. That blows because I think that angle is terribly done. Almost embarassingly badly executed.

Who was that guy and what was he doing???? :headache

the novel suggested he was bad and he may have been one of Palpatine's candidates to replace Maul.

[JMK]

Interesting. Lucas did have a part in the story of that book, yes?

[Lilaena De'Ville]

I don't know if this has already been said, but Spielburg has seen RotS, and he reportedly cried at the ending.

:crack

[Jedi Master Carr]

Originally posted by JMK
Interesting. Lucas did have a part in the story of that book, yes?

Some I am not sure how much he power he has, I think it is more they send him ideas and he agrees or disagrees on them.

[Jedieb]

I don't think Palpatine new the Queen would land on Tatooine, I dobut he knew about Anakin, but once he found out about him he wanted him as his future apprentice. I am not sure about Shimi's death.
Here's something for us to wrap our brains around, at one point, all of these were in the script for ROTS;


Palpy telling Anakin that he influenced the midichlorians and the Force to impregnate Padme. Thus giving ROTS an "I am your father!" moment.

I believe during the Dooku duel it's revealed that it was Dooku that paid the Sandpeople to kill Anakin's mother. Anakin has confided his massacre of the Sandpeople to Palps, this is still in the movie. But he and Dooku were behind it all. Palps tells Anakin this during their duel aboard Grievous' ship to help push Anakin to kill Dooku.

On a side note, we were suppose to see Han as a small child living on Kashyyk. He gotas far as having his costume designed and everything. I'm kind of glad that was dropped.

[Jedi Master Carr]

heh well my suspicious were right, I thought it was one huge coincidence that Anakin's mother was killed like that at that exact moment. Have to see how much of it makes into the film

[Figrin D'an]

Rotten Tomatoes is at 93%. That's pretty incredible, considering that it has actually gone up over the past week as more reviews have come in.


One week to go, and still spoiler-free. :)

[Jedi Master Carr]

Well they added the third negative review from IGN, but I don't see how it is rotten, I mean 3/5 should be postive, of course I didn't read the review maybe it is more negative than I think.

[Yog]

I see it the same way, and I read the review. Even though he is ranting on imperfections throughout the review, I actually read it overall as a thumbs up. In the conclusion he says:


Even with all these imperfections, RotS is the kind of film that should have launched the prequels back in 1999. In its own haphazard way, it boldly endeavors to emulate the trilogy it is building towards, while maintaining a distinct personality of its own. If we'd worked our way up from this, imagine the possibilities

[JMK]

It sounds like he's trashing the prequels as a whole and not exactly reviewing RotS on its own.

[Yog]

Thats some of the problem with the 3 "rotten" reviews so far. They should analyse the movie on its own merits. One reviewer is even talking about Bush and Kerry (what the heck does that have to do with anything?).

I am still waiting for a highly respected movie critic to come up with a well balanced review, analysing the movie carefully and explaining why its "bad". Wake me up when that happens. Chances are though, its simply a good movie.. great even.

[Jedi Master Carr]

I read that one I think he is a bush supporter and he is saying ROTS is slamming Bush. I don't think Lucas is doing that, if he sees that I have to wonder why.

[Jedieb]

"Only the Sith deal in absolutes." It's Anakin's 'you're either with me or against me' line and Obi-Wan's response that have caused many of these Bush comparisons. If you look hard enough, you could probably make a bunch of political statements. I don't really think Lucas went out of his way to make the comparison, but people often bring their own ideas to a story and don't even realize it. I can't stand Bush, but I'm not going to equate his administration's policies with the Sith. That's an insult to the Sith.

[JMK]

:lol

[Yog]

I can't stand Bush, but I'm not going to equate his administration's policies with the Sith. That's an insult to the Sith

:lol

But seriously. The prequels started the summer of 1999 before even Bush got into power. And Lucas had the background story how it all started in his mind before 1977. So suggesting that GL intended a political comparison of Palpatine and Bush is a far stretch. The "either you are with me or against me" thing is fairly recent, so I am not even sure if it was before or after they started shooting the scene or when he wrote the dialogue.

Oh, and that other reviewer who gives LOTR movies and other classics the thumb down. He sounds like a pretentious against the establishment type of critic, so I have have a hard time taking him serious. Or maybe he just has an odd taste. Either way, I dont trust his opinion for a second.

[Anbira Hicchoru]

Here come the negative reviews...

30 fresh, but 5 rotten now, including a blistering, two star bashing from Rolling Stone.

[JMK]

Wow. That was an out and out raping by Peter Travers. Ouch.

[CMJ]

What amuses me about it is I remember he gave AOTC a positive review, and now he calls it horrid. While it's possible he's changed his mind in the last 3 years, I've noticed Travers oftentimes likes to go with what he perceives to be the critical flow with films. I won't get into specifics here but I've seen him flip flop on numerous occassions.

I think that he thought the critics would be taking out their knives for ROTS(just like he thought AOTC would be more positively reviewed at the time) and he wanted to get in early.

[Anbira Hicchoru]

I'm not sweating it. Everything I've ever read in Rolling Stone is written like it's from the most pompous, sanctimonious douchebag in the universe, so I let it bleed into white noise.

[Jedieb]

I'm often amused by critical "amnesia." They give a certain movie a thumbs up, then when a large number of their bretheren trash the film, they realize a few years later that the film "sucks." I was listening to the new Matrix commentaries awhile back. Say what you will about the Wack. brothers, it took guts for them to ask critics who trashed their films to do a commentary on them. Well, by the time they got to Reloaded and Revolutions they would bring up how the sequels never matched up to the original. What made me laugh was that they had both trashed it as well. But I guess because it was such a hit they suddenly forgot they had trashed the first film. But here's something else that bugs me. Why do some of these guys have to give their negative reviews and take a shot at other critics who've given ROTS a positive review? It's as if their afraid their reviews can't stand on their own without them pointing out other critics and fans are just being swept up by the hype and apparently not thinking clearly.

Oh well, it's still going to end up over 80%. I'm not sweating it either.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Travers is one of the worst critics out there, the guy is a moron, IMO. I have never cared for his opinion. He thinks he is knows everything and if you disagree with him you are stupid.

[Jedieb]

Originally posted by Jedi Master Carr
Travers is one of the worst critics out there, the guy is a moron, IMO. I have never cared for his opinion. He thinks he is knows everything and if you disagree with him you are stupid.

Damn, that sounds familiar......

[JMK]

There's just so many critics out there that some don't want to get caught up in the tidal wave of popular opinion...so they swim against it.

[Jedi Master Carr]

LOL Jedieb, Well Travers also loved Batman and Robin, gave it 3.5 stars or something said it was the best Batman movie it shows what kind of taste he has right there. I have never liked him, I remember when CNN had him on as a guest critic he always got on my nerves.

[Jedieb]

I had no idea that he gave B&R a positive review, or that he called it the best of the series. That pretty much trashes whatever credibility he has in my eyes. The "bat-credit card," good lord what a tool.

[Jedi Master Carr]

That is typical of Travers, heck he loves Monster-in Law gave it four stars and he is almost the only critic who liked it.

[Yog]

The tomato meter is now down to 80% with 33 fresh and 8 rotten reviews.

Although, I have a hard time taking the rotten reviews serious, the trend is worrying. Why the sudden rush of bad reviews? Did they collectively attend a press screening drugged on LSD or something?

[Jedi Master Carr]

Well there is some good news, Ebert and Roeper gave it two thumbs up. Roeper really loved it called it the best SW movie since ESB. Ebert liked it and called it the best of the prequels. From the sound of it Roeper probably will give it 4 stars and Ebert 3.5.

[Anbira Hicchoru]

Originally posted by Jedi Master Carr
Well there is some good news, Ebert and Roeper gave it two thumbs up. Roeper really loved it called it the best SW movie since ESB. Ebert liked it and called it the best of the prequels. From the sound of it Roeper probably will give it 4 stars and Ebert 3.5.

Where'd you hear that? They don't give their review until tomorrow.

[JediBoricua]

I read it also at TF.net boards.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Yeah it was on the TFN boards the show aired in some cities this morning around midnight. I am glad to hear they liked it, I figured Roeper would but was afraid that Ebert might have his problems with digital film again, I guess he has gotten over that.

[CMJ]

Since he liked Sin City I figured the digital thing wouldn't be an objection anymore.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Yeah I heard that so it does make sense that his opinion has changed on the issue.

[Rutabaga]

Saw Ebert and Roeper last night, both remarked on the weakness of the dialogue, but neither felt that was a reason to not recommend the movie. It does seem that Roeper liked it more than Ebert, but both of them were very complimentary and gave the film solid thumbs-up.

Both of them also really hated Monster-in-Law. :D

[Jedi Master Carr]

Great review from New York Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/16/movies/16star.html?hp
Have to register to see it, I could paste some of it (although it is worth registering to the nytimes, IMO it is free). I am in shock, Scott has been a Prequel basher pretty much and now he really likes ROTS calling it the second best Star Wars movie after Empire, that alone is jaw dropping. We have seen a huge critic reversal in recent days from Ansen at Newsweek, Ebert and now Scott. I also saw Turan from the LA Times gave it a slightly postive review calling it the best of the prequels although still criticizing the weaknesses of the movie. To me this is great news I hope the good reviews keep coming.

[Rutabaga]

Originally posted by Master Yoghurt
:lol

But seriously. The prequels started the summer of 1999 before even Bush got into power. And Lucas had the background story how it all started in his mind before 1977. So suggesting that GL intended a political comparison of Palpatine and Bush is a far stretch. The "either you are with me or against me" thing is fairly recent, so I am not even sure if it was before or after they started shooting the scene or when he wrote the dialogue.

Well, ROTS premiered at Cannes, and here's an article from MSNBC about the whole so-called "anti-Bush diatribe":

http://famulus.msnbc.com/famulusgen/ap05-15-102957.asp?t=apent&vts=51520051716

It probably doesn't help that GL actually responded to the comments in a way that might lend credence to the whole thing, but still...yeah, GL first envisioned this whole story 30 years ago, so those accusations are ridiculous. Unless, of course, GL really does use the Force and is a fortune teller. :rolleyes

So I guess this means we'll be inundated with nasty articles now about how GL hates GWB and how this whole movie slanders GWB, yadda yadda yadda. We'll have that instead of all the crazy accusations re: alleged racism that were thrown at the first 2 prequels. :rolleyes

Now, a PS...having seen photos from Cannes, does anyone here know why Natalie Portman's head is SHAVED???? :eek I'm guessing it's for a film role, but yowza! :eek

[Jedi Master Carr]

It is for that V vendetta movie, I heard she had to shave her head for it, I guess have to get used to it. As for the Bush thing, well Scott brought that up to, not sure if it will be talked about besides the very liberal critics or not. Hopefully it won't get picked up by the mainstream press.

[Anbira Hicchoru]

Originally posted by Jedi Master Carr
It is for that V vendetta movie, I heard she had to shave her head for it, I guess have to get used to it. As for the Bush thing, well Scott brought that up to, not sure if it will be talked about besides the very liberal critics or not. Hopefully it won't get picked up by the mainstream press.

V? As in, the made-for-tv miniseries from the 80's?!?!

SAY IT IS SO!!!!

[Jedi Master Carr]

Nope it is based on a DC comic book, all I know about it is the Matrix people are doing it and Agent Smith/Elrond is playing the hero.

[Anbira Hicchoru]

blah, lame

[Jedi Master Carr]

I have no idea what it would be like as I know nothing about the comic book. I think Alan Moore wrote it but that is about it.

[JediBoricua]

I can see O'reilly, Hannity, Limbaugh et all picking up the alleged anti Bush message.


Which only means one thing, a killing will be made in the box office.

[Rutabaga]

Originally posted by JediBoricua
I can see O'reilly, Hannity, Limbaugh et all picking up the alleged anti Bush message.


Which only means one thing, a killing will be made in the box office.

Well, I was just channel surfing, and there was Geraldo Rivera on that POS Fox News Channel doing a whole segment on the movie, with the title BUSH WARS at the bottom of the screen. Now, no one was yelling and screaming about how dare GL do this or anything like that, it was more a discussion of whether or not the perception of the story is correct.

It just irritates me, though, because this kind of tomfoolery detracts from the movie itself and is nothing more than intellectual snobbery (although not all the comments are all that intellectual ;)). The same way I was just so disgusted with the racism accusations that were thrown at the first 2 prequels. Although those accusations did lead to some unintended and very funny laughs, though, like the woman who said Jango Fett was obviously a Hispanic stereotype, being completely clueless that Temeura Morrison is a Kiwi. :cool

I won't be surprised at all if Bill O'Reilly goes after it, but since the very sight of the man makes me hurl, I won't be around to see it :p.

[Jedieb]

What the hell is wrong with people. Comparing Palpatine, Anakin, and Dooku to Bush, Cheney, and Rummy is ludicrous. Palpatine is a brilliant political mastermind, Anakin is a war hero, and Dooku is a brilliant military strategist. These men have NOTHING in common! :evil

We've still got some negative reviews ahead of us, but we're going to stay around 80%. And the negative reviewers will keep trying to tell people to ignore all the good buzz they've heard about the movie. I have more respect for the naysayers who stick to their own opinions rather than trying to tear down gushers.

[Anbira Hicchoru]

If the shoe fits, wear it. We've known for over 2 decades that Palpatine rose through the ranks as a rule-bending politician, so if people get offended that there's a parallel to Bush, then maybe they should file their complaint at a certain Crawford Ranch, instead of Skywalker Ranch.

I'm just hoping that Bush doesn't Order 66 the anti-fundie libertarian gun owners like myself :uhoh

;)

[Jedieb]

Wait a minute, Crawford Ranch.... Skywalker Ranch..... Karl Rove ..... Rick McCallum.... OMG, this is like all those Kennedy and Lincoln coincidences.... ARMAGEDDON IS UPON US!!!!!!!! (Please Satan/Yogurt, just wait until Thursday 2:20 before you consume us all!)

:crack

[Jedi Master Carr]

LOL Jedieb, I am not sure if this talk will get much farther than just the reviews. I think if it gets bigger it will help the box office though as stuff like that normally does. As for the similarities I think Lucas is being very general showing how democracies fall like Rome, France, and Germany just to name a few. I hope we don't follow their lead.

[Rutabaga]

Originally posted by Jedieb
Wait a minute, Crawford Ranch.... Skywalker Ranch..... Karl Rove ..... Rick McCallum.... OMG, this is like all those Kennedy and Lincoln coincidences.... ARMAGEDDON IS UPON US!!!!!!!! (Please Satan/Yogurt, just wait until Thursday 2:20 before you consume us all!)

:crack

:lol :lol :lol

[Jedi Master Carr]

Postive review by USA Today and it is not Mike Clark, I consider that a shock
http://www.usatoday.com/life/movies/reviews/2005-05-15-sith_x.htm
She argues that it might be the best Star Wars film now that is something.
Edit what is even more shocking is this reviewer called AOTC the worst movie of 2002. After hearing that I am beginning to think Jedieb is on to something.

[Yog]

Originally posted by Anbira Hicchoru
V? As in, the made-for-tv miniseries from the 80's?!?!

SAY IT IS SO!!!!

I have some exciting news for you..
http://www.mindpulse.com/users/lizlady/kenjohnson.htm

Its only at script stage so far, but it may bery well go into production. I was going to post a thread about it, but thought I should wait until its more official. For the unknowing, Kenneth Johnson is the original creator of "V", so having him in is essential to make sure the series wont suck. As well is the possibility of having the original cast back. V is btw my all time favorite Sci Fi tv-show, so needless to say I am extremely excited.

[Anbira Hicchoru]

Originally posted by Master Yoghurt
I have some exciting news for you..
http://www.mindpulse.com/users/lizlady/kenjohnson.htm

Its only at script stage so far, but it may bery well go into production. I was going to post a thread about it, but thought I should wait until its more official. For the unknowing, Kenneth Johnson is the original creator of "V", so having him in is essential to make sure the series wont suck. As well is the possibility of having the original cast back. V is btw my all time favorite Sci Fi tv-show, so needless to say I am extremely excited.

It's easily as much a part of my early childhood as Star Wars, I'll say that much. Such a fantastically awesome show.

[Yog]

The largest Norwegian Newspapers chimed in with their reviews reporting from Cannes. Let one thing be clear: Norwegian media have always been very critical of the SW prequels, and they dont hand out good movie ratings like candy bars. Good rewiews here is an achievment.

Nevertheless, Dagbladet and VG gave it an approval with 4/6. More shockingly though, Aftenposten which is a conservative newspaper with a mercyless film critic awarded it a 5/6 saying ROTS is by far the best of the prequels; "..its better, darker, and more spectacular than its bloodless predecessors. George Lucas sets a conclusion he can be proud of after two disappointing prequels".

This thing is for real!


Great review from New York Times

Thats no small thing! Scott is perhaps the reviewer I respect the most, and I allmost always agree with him. He even claims its better than ANH. Holy crap!

[Jedi Master Carr]

I know Scott is very picky and for him to say that is wow. Also a bunch of new reviews this morning if you head over to RT. Postives from The Chicago Tribune, Boston Hearld, AP, USA Today, San Jose Mercury, and Newsday. Two new negatives one by the infamous Anthony Lane from the New Yorker who hates Star Wars (he has come out several times critizing all six films) so that one is no loss, and one by the New York Daily News which is just slightly negative (2.5 out of 4). Still three postives out there from Turan, Roeper, and Time Magazine so I think it is getting safe to say ROTS is going to have over 80% fresh.

[JediBoricua]

Both papers in Puerto Rico also printed gushing reviews.

Granted, both critics are huge fanboys who have posted in my fanforce forum. But good reviews are good reviews!

[Darth McBain]

Found this on IMDB - George Lucas gives his theory on fans...



Legendary director George Lucas hit out at critics of his first two Star Wars prequels yesterday - just hours before third prequel Revenge Of The Sith premiered at the Cannes Film Festival. The legendary filmmaker insisted there are plenty of fans who like the first two prequels, The Phantom Menace and Attack Of The Clones, but that most of them are under the age of 25. He added that most people who dislike the two films tend to be fanatics of the original trilogy, released between 1977 and 1983. Speaking at a press conference at the French event, Lucas said, "The older ones (fans) are loyal to the first three films I made, and they are the ones in control of the media. The films that these people don't like - which are the first two prequels - are fanatically adored by the under 25s. They are always at each others throats about it."


He might be on to something there, I think it is the comparison with the originals that people idolize which gives ammo to the detractors. True, the prequels so far haven't been perfect, but take a step back and look at the originals - were they perfect? Nope...

*BEGIN PERSONAL RANT*

Sometimes it also seems that people are looking for a way to be the ultimate fan. Nowadays, nobody can claim to be the ultimate fan, because just go online and you can find tons of other SW geeks that have seen the movies just as much as you and know just as much trivia as you do (such as this board...) So in order to be an "uber-fan", you need something that sets you apart from the rest of the pack. So these "fans" start to bash the prequels, so they can feel that they're above them. What could be "cooler" than trashing the prequel movies - they're not worth your viewing time, because you are the ULTIMATE fan...

And, as GL pointed out, a lot of these "fans" are now the ones that are writing the reviews that we're discussing in these threads and ultimately the ones whose reviews help shape public opinion of these movies... Sad... :(

Sorry, I don't know if that makes sense at all, but it sometimes seems that that also is part of the root of prequel bashing. :mad

*END PERSONAL RANT*

[Jedieb]

"The older ones (fans) are loyal to the first three films I made, and they are the ones in control of the media. The films that these people don't like - which are the first two prequels - are fanatically adored by the under 25s. They are always at each others throats about it."

I saw that quote somewhere yesterday and I thought about starting a thread on it because I find it to be a LOAD OF *&^%!!!!

When it comes to critics, GL is rarely honest with himself. How many times have we heard him say that critics have never liked the films? That's simply not true. A large majority of critics enjoyed ANH and ESB. Things started taking a turn with ROTJ. But even that film got a thumbs up from both Ebert & Siskel. I have vivid memories of watching their ROTJ show. Siskel talked about how he found himself leaning forward with his elbows on his knees and head in his hands like a little kid watching cartoons on a Saturday morning. Saying that today's critics are kids who grew up with the OT is a cop out. Hell, Ebert looks like he's actually ingested a few kids these last 28 years.

I agree that older fans are more apt to favor the OT over the prequels. They may even be quicker to find faults in things such as dialogue and acting while protecting their childhood memories from the same clevel of criticism. But there's still no denying that it takes Jake Lloyd a year and a half to tell us that sandstorms are "very..........very........dan.....gerous." Or that after a certain age, being exposed to Jar Jar for large amounts of time is very similiar to being exposed to Barney for large amounts of time; the urge to kill your children becomes nearly uncontrollable.

I don't think the prequels have been wretched. I had a great time with AOTC and I can enjoy TPM, in Spanish and by skipping a few scenes. But Lucas sometimes just doesn't want to take any kind of a hit. Any perceived flaw must be someone else's fault. During ANH and ESB, he had other people contributing and working with him as EQUALS. There were even people around him who would occasionally tell him he was full of crap. I don't think that's existed for quite some time. Everybody needs someone close to them to tell them they're full of it. Hell, that's one of the reasons I got married. So I could hear that on a daily basis. All GL hears is what a genius he is. I do think he's a friggin' genius, but even a genius can occasionally screw up. Meesa thinks that's pretty obvious.
:smokin

[CMJ]

Well SW:ANH and ESB got good reviews, but by no means were they as positive as the Special Edition reviews were a generation later. ESB especially got kinda mixed notices(which is amusing in retrospect). Comparing the initial response to the prequels is not as outlandish as you may think.

I did a paper on it back in school.

[Jedi Master Carr]

However I have seen earlier reviews of ESB and the reactions was mixed. The Washington Post, NY Times and several others panned it. Before RT put the SE reviews up I remember seeing ESB at like 62%, sure it had it's share of good reviews but it was still considered mixed at the time because it was so different from ANH.

[CMJ]

You must not have read my post Carr. ;)

[Yog]

I could not agree more, Jedieb. I shall print out your post and hang it up for display :)

There were some mixed reviews back then yes, but at that time it was more than movies. It was a phenomenon. Its simply not comparable to the prequels of todays.

[CMJ]

I'm not sure I agree. Alot of folks younger than say ....21 or so basically grew up with these new ones and love'm to death. On the other end, my father basically thinks they're all of equal value - garbage(he thought the first one was "okay" - and was in his mid 20's when they came out, so he was gonna either love'm or hate'm). I think there IS something to say in this whole thing.

[JMK]

Everything that comes out of Lucas' mouth these days, and for some time now, I've seen not as much as Lucas the movie maker speaking, but Lucas the businessman. By him going around telling everyone that no one liked any of his movies, even the originals, he protects himself from any criticism.

"No critics liked my movies, but they've made TONS of money, so somebody is wrong."

By using this approach he insulates himself, he's indirectly telling folks that they shouldn't listen to the critics and to head out and pay admission anyway. With the huge B.O. totals, he has numbers to back that up.

[Dasquian Belargic]

I read some article yesterday where the writer was basically saying that people over 25 love the OT, while people under 25 love the prequels.

:huh

edit - I just noticed that someone quoted directly from that article already! That's what I get for not reading the thread thoroughly :uhoh

[JMK]

That's a real load of crap. I'd be more inclined to believe it if they said people under 18 love the prequels. I'm not that far removed from 25 and to this point I much prefer the originals to the prequels.

[CMJ]

Notice I said under 21 ...not 25. ;)

[Dasquian Belargic]

I would go so far as to say under 16. Most people I speak to around my age (17-19) really don't like TPM and think AOTC is not so bad. But I have relatives, and friends of the family, who are a couple of years younger who think TPM is awesome.

[CMJ]

I dated a girl about 6 months ago who was 18(yeah I was a cradle robber). Her and her friends all loved TPM and AOTC. The first time she ever saw the originals was in '97. They are my template.

[Rutabaga]

Originally posted by Jedieb
I saw that quote somewhere yesterday and I thought about starting a thread on it because I find it to be a LOAD OF *&^%!!!!

When it comes to critics, GL is rarely honest with himself. How many times have we heard him say that critics have never liked the films? That's simply not true. A large majority of critics enjoyed ANH and ESB. Things started taking a turn with ROTJ. But even that film got a thumbs up from both Ebert & Siskel. I have vivid memories of watching their ROTJ show. Siskel talked about how he found himself leaning forward with his elbows on his knees and head in his hands like a little kid watching cartoons on a Saturday morning. Saying that today's critics are kids who grew up with the OT is a cop out. Hell, Ebert looks like he's actually ingested a few kids these last 28 years.

I agree that older fans are more apt to favor the OT over the prequels. They may even be quicker to find faults in things such as dialogue and acting while protecting their childhood memories from the same clevel of criticism. But there's still no denying that it takes Jake Lloyd a year and a half to tell us that sandstorms are "very..........very........dan.....gerous." Or that after a certain age, being exposed to Jar Jar for large amounts of time is very similiar to being exposed to Barney for large amounts of time; the urge to kill your children becomes nearly uncontrollable.

I don't think the prequels have been wretched. I had a great time with AOTC and I can enjoy TPM, in Spanish and by skipping a few scenes. But Lucas sometimes just doesn't want to take any kind of a hit. Any perceived flaw must be someone else's fault. During ANH and ESB, he had other people contributing and working with him as EQUALS. There were even people around him who would occasionally tell him he was full of crap. I don't think that's existed for quite some time. Everybody needs someone close to them to tell them they're full of it. Hell, that's one of the reasons I got married. So I could hear that on a daily basis. All GL hears is what a genius he is. I do think he's a friggin' genius, but even a genius can occasionally screw up. Meesa thinks that's pretty obvious.
:smokin

I've got to admit, I agree with what you said in this post. By brushing off criticism, GL sometimes sounds like he's in complete denial, and that just comes off as being silly.

That was one of my biggest complaints about the interview with GL on 60 Minutes a few weeks ago...he was asked about the bad reviews for the first 2 prequels, and his answer was essentially, "The first 3 movies got bad reviews, so it doesn't mean anything." I was really frustrated when I heard him say that...one thing I'm aching to hear GL say is an admission that he might have made mistakes along the way, and if given a chance to do things over again, he might do things a little differently.

I love the OT, and I've enjoyed TPM and AOTC, I don't hate them at all. But I'm also the first to admit that TPM in particular has some major, major faults. First and foremost is, face up to it, GL, admit it, Jar Jar was a complete misfire. The character might have looked decent on paper, but on film, he just didn't work. I'm not a Jar Jar hater by any means, but I do think TPM would have been significantly better without him.

And then there were some scenes where what happened was downright dopey and was completely illogical. I've got an extensive background in fan fiction (in the 80's and 90's I had lots of SW fanfic printed in a few different fanzines), and there are some scenes in TPM which, had I read them in fan stories, I would have laughed them off and called them weak. The best example of this is the opening parts of the TPM climax. Okay, so Qui-Gon believes Anakin is The Chosen One, and it's absolutely vital that he stay alive and be safe so that he can bring balance to the Force. So what does he do next? He takes him directly into a battle. One stray crossfire, and Anakin is toast. Did that make sense? Wouldn't Anakin have been safer if he had stayed out in the forest with Boss Nass, where there was no fighting going on? And then to top it all off with, "Stay in that cockpit!" was just the silly icing on the equally silly cake. GL wrote some pretty flimsy and goofy scenes in order to get Anakin into the position of being able to destroy the droid control ship, and it just doesn't work, because it doesn't make sense.

And I've always wondered about one other thing...Qui-Gon didn't want to take Padme into Mos Espa because he said it was too dangerous. But then why the heck was he taking Jar Jar with him? That's never made sense either. All it did was make Jar Jar unnecessary comic relief in scenes where no comic relief was needed.

But don't get me wrong, like I said, I thought TPM was entertaining and accomplished what it meant to do, which was to get all the players in position for the rest of the story. And I enjoyed AOTC, even with the gummy romantic dialogue. And I'm definitely looking forward to ROTS and am anticipating that it will indeed be the best of the prequels, and perhaps one of the best SW movies ever.

But it would still be nice to hear GL admit that maybe things haven't always gone well, and that he's made some mistakes, or at least some misjudgments, somewhere along the line. :\

[Jedi Master Carr]

Originally posted by CMJ
You must not have read my post Carr. ;)

LOL I think you posted a second before me, but I agree with you completely.

[Jedieb]

Anyone think that 20 years from now TPM and even AOTC will have aged as well as ANH, ESB, and ROTJ? ANYONE?! You'll NEVER see positive reviews of future prequel SE's come in over 90%. I don't think it's a stretch to predict that ROTS will probably be the only prequel to age well.

I'd love to see the percentages of the reviews you found in your research CMJ. While the reviews of ESB may have been mixed compated to ANH, I bet they were still higher than what TPM and AOTC pulled in. Also, there were probably around 1/2 as many reviews as what we've gotten for the prequels because of smaller media markets and outlets. Take the big 3 networks and a few major newspapers and that's about it. And toss out Paulene Kael because she went off on a rant with ESB that seemed to attack Lucas, Spielberg, and anything that was geared for big B.O. ;)

[Jedi Master Carr]

A lot of critics didn't like ESB because it was so much darker than ANH plus it ended like it did which was very hated. Heck when I was a kid I like ESB the least, my favorite until I saw them again on SE was ROTJ mainly because of the ending.

[CMJ]

I just rewatched AOTC. I absolutely think it'll age well. It's so much better than ROTJ it's not even funny.

You might throw out Kael, but she was a very influential critic back in the day. Though the older she got the less she enjoyed. Definitely a strange bird that lady.

[Anbira Hicchoru]

Originally posted by CMJ
I just rewatched AOTC. I absolutely think it'll age well. It's so much better than ROTJ it's not even funny.

The throne room duel alone ensures this will never happen. Whatever shortfalls RotJ may have had, there is more crystalline awesome in the Palpatine/Vader/Luke confrontation than anything else in Star Wars.

[CMJ]

The throne room scenes are basically the only stuff that really works for me. It has worse pacing issues than TPM.

[Anbira Hicchoru]

Originally posted by CMJ
The throne room scenes are basically the only stuff that really works for me. It has worse pacing issues than TPM.

Only because TPM is a total vacuum of plot effects, that the drought of a climax you work up to on the return to Naboo feels like an oasis in retrospect.

RotJ on the other hand is bimodal, if anything.

[Yog]

It's so much better than ROTJ it's not even funny.

Totally disagree with you. The throne room scenes have been mentioned. But lets not forget the absolutely SPECTACULAR space battle. I even liked the opening part at Jabbas Palace, the scene with the rancor, the battle over the sanddunes etc. Or how about the speederbike chase on Endor, the battle over the shield generator and so on. Most important though, they are all established characters who you can root for, and there is some decent story development throughout. The whole movie is basically the culmination and grand finale of 3 movies, heck its the grand finale of all 6 movies.

When I was a kid, many of my friends even thought of it as the best of the series. Older and wiser, I firmly concider ANH and ESB to be the better, but back then, it was not even obvious.

[Anbira Hicchoru]

I still am not sure what all the reverence for ANH is about, aside from being "the first one". I like Attack of the Clones as much, if not moreso than ANH.

[Cat Terrist]

Originally posted by CMJ
I just rewatched AOTC. I absolutely think it'll age well. It's so much better than ROTJ it's not even funny.

You might throw out Kael, but she was a very influential critic back in the day. Though the older she got the less she enjoyed. Definitely a strange bird that lady.

Your kidding me. AOTC is far more flawed and boring to watch. That's a staggering thing to say CMJ, and I really dont think there's any real proof to it.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Well it is really a matter of an opinion which he is entitled too. In some ways I like AOTC better than ROTJ now, it really depeneds on my mood and my opinion between the two films changes from time to time.

[JMK]

I disagree that TPM and AotC will age well. Of course AotC will fare better than TPM but basically anything with Darth Vader in it will have better legs than a SW movie without him.


I've got to admit, I agree with what you said in this post. By brushing off criticism, GL sometimes sounds like he's in complete denial, and that just comes off as being silly.

That was one of my biggest complaints about the interview with GL on 60 Minutes a few weeks ago...he was asked about the bad reviews for the first 2 prequels, and his answer was essentially, "The first 3 movies got bad reviews, so it doesn't mean anything." I was really frustrated when I heard him say that...one thing I'm aching to hear GL say is an admission that he might have made mistakes along the way, and if given a chance to do things over again, he might do things a little differently.

I love the OT, and I've enjoyed TPM and AOTC, I don't hate them at all. But I'm also the first to admit that TPM in particular has some major, major faults. First and foremost is, face up to it, GL, admit it, Jar Jar was a complete misfire. The character might have looked decent on paper, but on film, he just didn't work. I'm not a Jar Jar hater by any means, but I do think TPM would have been significantly better without him.

And then there were some scenes where what happened was downright dopey and was completely illogical. I've got an extensive background in fan fiction (in the 80's and 90's I had lots of SW fanfic printed in a few different fanzines), and there are some scenes in TPM which, had I read them in fan stories, I would have laughed them off and called them weak. The best example of this is the opening parts of the TPM climax. Okay, so Qui-Gon believes Anakin is The Chosen One, and it's absolutely vital that he stay alive and be safe so that he can bring balance to the Force. So what does he do next? He takes him directly into a battle. One stray crossfire, and Anakin is toast. Did that make sense? Wouldn't Anakin have been safer if he had stayed out in the forest with Boss Nass, where there was no fighting going on? And then to top it all off with, "Stay in that cockpit!" was just the silly icing on the equally silly cake. GL wrote some pretty flimsy and goofy scenes in order to get Anakin into the position of being able to destroy the droid control ship, and it just doesn't work, because it doesn't make sense.

And I've always wondered about one other thing...Qui-Gon didn't want to take Padme into Mos Espa because he said it was too dangerous. But then why the heck was he taking Jar Jar with him? That's never made sense either. All it did was make Jar Jar unnecessary comic relief in scenes where no comic relief was needed.

Son of a gun, you took the words right out of my mouth. I agree with each and every word you typed. You'd think with 16 years between RotJ and TPM that Lucas could have come up with a tighter plot and not leave everything to the 'will of the force'. Anakin not getting turned to dust on Naboo in the hangar or in the space battle above is not 'the will of the force'. It's luck at best, and it's more likely careless conception. And just because Qui Gon said 'stay with me and you'll be safe' doesn't mean that nothing will happen to him. Boy, the more we talk about TPM the more and more we flesh out its problems.

[CMJ]

Originally posted by Master Yoghurt
Totally disagree with you. The throne room scenes have been mentioned. But lets not forget the absolutely SPECTACULAR space battle. I even liked the opening part at Jabbas Palace, the scene with the rancor, the battle over the sanddunes etc. Or how about the speederbike chase on Endor, the battle over the shield generator and so on. Most important though, they are all established characters who you can root for, and there is some decent story development throughout. The whole movie is basically the culmination and grand finale of 3 movies, heck its the grand finale of all 6 movies.

The space battle is frankly not that interesting to me. Honestly I think it's a amped up rehash of the one from ANH. I've never been that satisfied by with it since...I don't know..I was 13.

Not a big fan of much of the stuff at Jabba's Palace either. Yeah, it does have some good stuff, like the Rancor - but for some reason it just feels...off or flat somehow. I have thought so for years. I could never understand why my brother liked it so much when we were in high school.

The speeder chase on Endor is very cool I agree. My thing was not that individual segments(because I could cut and paste individual segments from AOTC or TPM and do the same thing) per se. They just didn't flow together very well to me. They still don't. Really the only reason ROTJ gets the nod over TPM for me is the throne room stuff which is the reason for the whole frikkin series.

I understand it's not the popular opinion here. Who knows how future generations will look back on these movies? They'll look at the series in totally different ways than we will.

[JMK]

I think the space battle in RotJ easily trumps that of TPM and edges out the one from ANH because the action is more free flowing. The battle in ANH is a little claustraphobic for me but still holds tremedous appeal because of nostalgia and the tension involved. RotJ's was great because we finally got to see the Falcon out there whipping some serious butt, and the full might of the Imperial fleet was brought out.

Jabba's palace used to be great, but the SE ruined it with that embarassingly atrocious muppet like musical number.

[Jedieb]

Lord help us, but even with all the good vibes ROTS has produced, we're still going to have to deal with the following;

“You’re beautiful,”

“Only because I’m so in love,”

“Only because I’m so in love with you,”
Honestly, I think my 6-year old boy could come up with better lines. Then again, he's a playa like his Daddy.
:cool

What movie is better than the other is all a matter of opinion. Hell, we all know someone who thinks TPM was not only good, but the 'greatest' motion picture ever made. :rolleyes I'm just guessing how the prequels will age. We already know how the OT has aged; ANH & ESB have done quite well (ANH a classic for many, ESB the darkest and best for others). We've got evidence, both critical and financial of how the OT has aged. (SE reviews and B.O. figures) ROTJ has gotten some Ewok wrinkles and some of its dialogue produces giggles in the WRONG places. ("You want this....... " snicker & "I have FELT him!" more snickering) But it still gets a more favorable reception than the first 2 prequels. I'm talking about GENERAL opinions. You'll always find some people who rank the films in a completely different order than you do, that's inevitable. Yes, someone out there thinks Jar Jar is a comic masterpiece. He's probably French and a big Jerry Lewis fan, but he's out there. Just be grateful you've never had to sit and breathe next to him a theater. (Ah, cheap Frenchie jokes, my love for you will NEVER die!)

But we do have some evidence that the prequels have already started aging poorly. How many, "but it's better than the first two" lines have we seen in reviews? How often do we come across the same sentiments here and on other boards? I don't agree with much of the AOTC bashing, but I recognize it's out there. I don't see it improving all that much.

Anyway, over 63 major reviews in and we're still over 80%. Good stuff.

[Jedieb]

I think the space battle in RotJ easily trumps that of TPM and edges out the one from ANH because the action is more free flowing. The battle in ANH is a little claustraphobic for me but still holds tremedous appeal because of nostalgia and the tension involved. RotJ's was great because we finally got to see the Falcon out there whipping some serious butt, and the full might of the Imperial fleet was brought out.

I love the tension of the ANH's space battles, even the Falcon and 4 ties. It's not a question of more and more ships and lasers. The space battle in TPM left me flat. I was expecting something 16 years better than ROTJ's and it just wasn't there. There wasn't a flow to it. It didn't have to be bigger and better, it just had to have a flow to it. And visually, I just didn't like the look of the Naboo or Droid fighters. All that changed with AOTC. I loved the look of the new Jedi Starfighters and I'm still hoping someone at Hasbro will offer us a Hyperspace ring for our Jedi fighters. Seeing Slave I back was a treat as well, even though I'm no Fett fan, I still love the look of that ship.

[JMK]

I didn't much like the Falcon & 4 tie fighter chase. I used to love it, but now I find so static.

Despite the fact that I think technology really hurts ANH looking back on it, there's still SO much to love about it which is why it will always be an enduring movie no matter the era. With TPM...sadly there isn't much to love about it except for the eventual story arc of all the characters. And as much as I respect people's opinions, anyone who thinks TPM is the best movie ever made needs therapy.

[CMJ]

Read this and compare it to reviews for TPM and AOTC. That's all I'm saying guys.

http://www.nytimes.com/library/film/061580empire.html

[JMK]

I have to say that was a thouroughly idiotic review. :\

[CMJ]

EXACTLY. And whose to say ppl 25 years from now aren't gonna be saying the same thing?

[JMK]

About Empire or the prequels?

[CMJ]

The prequels...I thought I'd made my point.

[JMK]

I think your point is valid...but I think the prequels (TPM and AotC anyway) are going to be stuck as the bastard children of the Star Wars saga for the rest of time. I really don't think time will be nice to them.

I think that when ANH came out, the world was completely taken by storm...ESB was probably expected to be totally new, but it was simply a continuation of a longer story. It didn't have to reinvent the wheel again, as ANH seemingly did. Time turned the tide in ESB's favor, but opinion changed because the pieces were in place for that change to occur. The prequels are sorely lacking what ANH and ESB have. I don't think that will ever change, but I could be wrong.

[CMJ]

And with the prequels people expected the OT. They were letdown by an absence of a Han Solo type rogue, etc. (as an aside the romance got ripped almost as heavily as Anakin/Padme's did)

I think together ALL the films will be seen as worthy entrants. But I have no way of knowing either. I was more trying to show that it's really hard to know. You can't throw critic reviews up because ESB had decidedly mixed notices and it is widely considered the best of the bunch now. Amazingly ROTJ got overall better reviews if I recall correctly(and its were pretty mixed as well)

[JMK]

Yeah people got way out of control with their expectations. My problem now with TPM and AotC isn't with the characters, or the direction the story takes, as seems to be the beef with that particular review, it's with the plot, the execution, the writing and the acting (I guess you could say directing).

[Rutabaga]

Oh, btw, having watched TPM again over the weekend, it suddenly struck me...the whole midichlorian issue appears to have been dropped. Unless it's going to come up again in ROTS, and if it is, don't say anything in detail yet...I'm trying my best to avoid spoilage of any kind (although thanks to TV Guide, I know a one whopper >_< ).

So, if the midichlorian issue has been dropped, maybe that's one tacit admission on GL's part that something didn't work right. Maybe. o_O

[Shawn]

Even Lucas can't deny what an enormous Faux Pas that was.

[Jedi Master Carr]

85% now at RT, hopefully it will go higher :) Biggest reviews yet to be posted are from Entertainment weekly, the Washington Post and the Boston Globe.

[CMJ]

I always thought the midichlorian angle was going to unique to TPM. It was supposed to be some sort of parallel between the Naboo and Gungans. The whole symbiant circle stuff.

[Yog]

Soon, we will able to post our own reviews of ROTS. Are you getting excited yet? I am :)

[Jedieb]

16:55:15
:crack
Sorry, can't help myself!

[Jedi Master Carr]

Yeah it is getting very close :) Two more gushing reviews from the Boston Globe and the Washington Post today. The Boston Globe reviewer argues that it might be the best of the six films now that is something.

[JediBoricua]

WP and Boston Globe, just icing on the cake!

I just returned from line at my local theater. I arrived at 6AM and there were 4 ppl in line already.

I left for work at 9am and there were 20 ppl.

I can't imagine the crowd when I return at 6pm and cut in line....

Luke: "I am not afraid"

Yoda: "You will be, you will be..."

[Jedi Master Carr]

Although EW just gave it a B- which really doesn't surprise me coming from them, they have bashed the prequels from the beginning. At least it won't hurt the RT score.

[Jedi Master Carr]

82% with 118 reviews up. I think it will be north of 80% so somewhere between 81-84 seems likely. I am satisfied with that. Heck cream of the crop is 76% that is higher than any of the prequels (AOTC did like 40%) That alone is a huge improvement.

[JMK]

What awesome news so far. :crack

[Jedi Master Carr]

Yeah I agree if you look at the original reviews for the movies, this is getting the second best reviews (after ANH) If you count the SE the third best but still.

[Rutabaga]

Originally posted by Jedi Master Carr
Although EW just gave it a B- which really doesn't surprise me coming from them, they have bashed the prequels from the beginning. At least it won't hurt the RT score.

I used to subscribe to EW but cancelled my subscription in a huff 2 or 3 years ago over their SW-bashing...they never hesitated to rag on the prequels over and over again, but they also never hesitated to put anything from the movies on the covers knowing they would sell issues. To me, that was nothing but hypocrisy, and I was so sick of it, I took myself off their subscriber list.

I now bid SWFans adieu for a few days...for a variety of reasons, I won't be seeing ROTS for the first time until Sunday afternoon, so outside of email, I'll pretty much be offline between now and after I've seen the movie so that I can avoid spoilers.

Everyone have fun, post post post, and I'll see you all on Sunday afternoon! :crack

[Figrin D'an]

Having finally seen the film, I've been now able to read some of the reviews on RT and other sources. The negative ones are... confusing. Most of them seem to be either knocking the film down for tiny, tiny things that are little more than idiosyncracies, or are just rants about the prequels in general. Some of them, it's difficult for me to believe that they are reviews of the same film I saw.

Ultimately, the excellent word-of-mouth that Episode III will get is going to push the naysayers into a less vocal corner. There will still be those who are never satisfied, but they will be fewer this time around.