U.S spreading Democracy?? And declaring war on Iran?

[Jedi Master Carr]

Now I think Bush is being really unrealistic


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2027&ncid=2027&e=2&u=/chitribts/20050121/ts_chicagotrib/bushseesglobalmissionin2ndterm

We can't get rid of tyranny never. There will always be dictarorships history has shown that. Besides that two of the largest dictatorships now are Russia and China. They won't listen to us. China especially, I am sure they just laughed at that speech over there. The Chinese are getting stronger as ever year passes what do they care about us. So the only way to stop tyranny there is to go to war with them, which isn't very likely (unless you want to live with millions of deaths). So, why bother to even say something like this if we can't do anything about it.

Second is the situation with Iran which could be leading to war according to the New Yorker

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?050124fa_fact

I think going to war with them is wrong right now. Iraq isn't even straight and second where are we going to get the troops? We have none in the reserves left to invade with, which means a draft which would mean Bush going back on his word from before the election. Of course this could all be empty threats but then to me an empty threat is just stupid because if you aren't going to live up to and just back down why bother to threaten Iran and others?

[Phantom]

I highly doubt Bush would reinstate a draft, though he reallyhas nothing to lose politically from it, he already made his second term. Though I do tend to agree with you Carr, going to war with Iran right now would be an extremelybad idea. If we were to invade Iran the military would need to regroup and form a better strategy then the one they used in Iraq. They'd also need not to pull their punches.

We have to much money tied up and invested into China to go to war with them, though I believe we will in time.

Just because dictarorships and tyrants will always exist doesn't mean we should stop fighting them.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Yeah but to say we are going to end them under his administration is a little silly. Sure he can say we will fight them but an end to Tyranny just won't happen, anytime soon, IMO. I don't think we will ever go to war with China. If we did it could end in Nuclear war which is why we won't go to war. The possibilities of us nuking each other will keep us from doing that kind of warfare. Iran is a different animal. I think something should have been done about Iran but invading isn't a good idea with the Iraq mess. Maybe several years down the road if Iraq is fixed (not sure if that is likely) then sure but not know. The only options I see are military strikes that may or may not work but that would be better than committing are troops to a war at the moment.

[Figrin D'an]

China is slowly being forced to change their policies, both political and economic, because of the developing global economy and international trade. It won't happen overnight, nor should it. China is evolving away from it's pseudo-communist totalitarian ways. It'll just take time.

Russia is going through the growing pains of having cast off communism is such a rapid manner in the early 90's. Again, it's not going to get better overnight, nor even in a decade. Check back in 50-60 years, and I'm willing to bet both Russia and China will be quite different from what they are today politically.

War with Iran = bad idea. Even ignoring for a moment all of the political and ethical issues involved in such a venture, it would be a mess logistically with American troops currently spread too thin as it is. I don't think it will happen, unless Iran gets so beligerent regarding their nuclear weapons program that the UN agrees to military action (in which case, China has the worlds largest standing army not all that far away).

[Telan Desaria]

What people do not know is that many chemical weapons and many biological weapons were used between Iraq and Iran in their decade long war in the 80s. If anyone here thinks that US troops would be immune to such horrors think again. They were fighting fellow arabs. They would not flinch about unleashing devastation onto foregin devils who are trying to invade their homes and change the way they have lived for thousands of years.

Who is America (Bush) to say that democracy is the only true form of government and the only one that ensures freedom????? Democracy in my opinion as we know is the harbinger of chaos - -and ask the Middle East or the Orient and my opinion is echoed. Why does a nation that abhors Imperialism want to espouse it and practise it?>>>

If the United States wants to conquer at least take notes from those who have come before. The British ruled one quarter of the world at one point but the US does not heed the lessons of history. We all wait with baited breath.

[Morgan Evanar]

^k enough of your anti-democracy claptrap thanks.

Most of the posters here are aware of the warfare that happened between Iran and Iraq and that it invovled chemical weapons back in the 80s.

I really think that we should finish what we started, but that's never stopped Bush before! See: actions after Afgahnistan.

[Telan Desaria]

I wasnt trying to preech. Just warn.

[Sanis Prent]

Originally posted by Telan Desaria
What people do not know is that many chemical weapons and many biological weapons were used between Iraq and Iran in their decade long war in the 80s. If anyone here thinks that US troops would be immune to such horrors think again. They were fighting fellow arabs. They would not flinch about unleashing devastation onto foregin devils who are trying to invade their homes and change the way they have lived for thousands of years.

Who is America (Bush) to say that democracy is the only true form of government and the only one that ensures freedom????? Democracy in my opinion as we know is the harbinger of chaos - -and ask the Middle East or the Orient and my opinion is echoed. Why does a nation that abhors Imperialism want to espouse it and practise it?>>>


And if we didn't have MOPP suits you might have a point :o

[Telan Desaria]

Those can be quickly circumvented. I know first hand. No protection is guaranteed to work nor are all combat troops deployed with such protection. If a chemical weapon were deployed right now, besides NBC masks, the men would wither and die. Precautions are not taken and I simply say that the perils faced are not known to all.

War is an ugly business. Compared to a holy war or their defending their own homes, it is a brutal, ruthless doing where none are safe and all is fair in the name of Allah.

[Sanis Prent]

How does one circumvent a MOPP suit, aside from running through a cloud of VX with a pair of fabric scissors? Enough with being silly.

[Telan Desaria]

Tell me Sanis - - how many standard infantrymen are issued such devices????? How many Abrams are outfitted with the DD12 Chemical Seal? How many unit headquarters, how many armored personnel carriers, have filtration devices?>????


I admit the precautions exist but how many are in the sands of Arabia?

[Sanis Prent]

At the tip of the spear on a conventional movement? Quite a good bit, as I seem to recall from the invasion of '03.

[Telan Desaria]

Your army is not as prepared as you would like to think, Sanis.

[Sanis Prent]

Then you can of course provide links to the contrary?

[Telan Desaria]

so as not to pollute the thread further - -contact me privately and yes

[Jedi Master Carr]

Okay about China, personally I don't know what will happen to them. They have removed a lot of their communists restraits that is for sure but still the power is held by a few. I am not sure if this is ever going to change. I guess it could but democracy is completely foreign to them. They lived for centuries under rule of kings and dictators they never revolved until realtively recently (I am not counting the Boxer Rebellion which had more to do with the west) and Tienemen (sp) Square was put down so harshly nobody has disagreed with the government since. They have a strangehold on power the only way for it to change is really a revolution like in France and I don't see that happen any time in the near future.

It is possible that there might not be a democracy there and the people might be find with that. Democracy is honestly a western ideology people in other cultures might not agree with it and feel it is not the best form of government. It is impossible to tell. Unforuntely I don't think any of us will live to see the answers about that.

Now Russia, well who knows what is going on there. Putin basically said democracy is dead and declared himself dictator, IMO. He has said nothing about when this is going to end and he keeps the country in his hands. Now maybe we can pressure him to change I have no idea. We sure haven't done a good job of that so far. Of course with Russia there might be another revolution and who knows what kind of government we will end up with hopefully it is better than Putin.

[Telan Desaria]

I can only imagine the tomatoes tossed when I say this - -but Vladmir Putin is not that bad of a guy. He is, after all, ex KGB. It could be worse - - he could be a Gorbachev or some such thing. Russia needs a strong leader in its present fragmented and fragile condition.

[Callomas Savoc]

Originally posted by Telan Desaria
so as not to pollute the thread further - -contact me privately and yes

You can post it here, it's relevant and I'm sure others are interested to boot.

[Jedi Master Carr]

Yeah Russia needs ex KGB as much as German needs a former SS running their country. Gorbachev was a great man he saw the truth the Soviet union was falling part he did the right thing in letting it go. If he hadn't it would have been a lot worse.

[Telan Desaria]

Ex SS compared to the Schroeder.......


do you really have to ask>>> The man is a twit - -incompetent and insulting to Germans everywhere

[Morgan Evanar]

I'm curious too, how well prepared is the US frontline force when it comes to chemical warfare?

[Jedi Master Carr]

So you think an ex Nazi would be a good leader for Germany?? Put one in we will have another holocaust.

[Darth Viscera]

Originally posted by Telan Desaria
What people do not know is that many chemical weapons and many biological weapons were used between Iraq and Iran in their decade long war in the 80s. If anyone here thinks that US troops would be immune to such horrors think again. They were fighting fellow arabs. They would not flinch about unleashing devastation onto foregin devils who are trying to invade their homes and change the way they have lived for thousands of years.

Saying that Persians are Arabs is like saying the English are Spaniards.

[Telan Desaria]

Carr -that is not what I meant. What I meant was that anyone -- including someone that wretched - would be better than that idiot.