Famous Military Battles/Campaigns

[TieFighterPilot181st]

Yes, Ive been getting bored again and I was thinking. Since most of us here seem quite interested in the realm of military operations and such I decided that there should be a thread where we could talk about famous battles and campaigns and such. So feel free to post and talk about this kind of stuff.
:crack :crack

[Jarek T'chort]

I have two wars I'm most interested in - WW2 the European theatre, and Vietnam. Out of those two, I'm particularly interested in 43/45 in WW2, arguably the most world changing events took place then and the scale of the battles and campaigns reflect that. So, battles like Caen, Monte Cassino or on the River Oder I like learning some more about.

[TieFighterPilot181st]

I'm not particularly familiar with the River Oder. What happened there?

[Telan Desaria]

Oy.

The Oder is in the East namely with the city Farnkfurt an der Oder upon it. The river served as one in a long succession of defensive lines against the Communist infidels who assault the Reich. It was breached but not before a mighty toll of red dead lay before the German positions. It was said that the Battle in North Africa was the war without hate, where gentleman opposed one another in a sporting fashion. The War in the East was the Battle of Hate between two ideologies - we were fighting for our homes and families - they were fighting to rape pillage and plunder and spread Communism to the world.

---

My personal favorites hail from an era before that one - namely the Battles of Metz and Sedan in the Franco-Prussian War.

Also - my personal favorite battle of all time is the Battle of Tsushima. A force of nearly thirty ships, Russian Ironclads, made the jounrey from Kronstadt to Reval around Europe and then Africa through the Indian ocean and then north towards China when they were stopped by a Japanese flotilla. The Japense shattered the Russian formation and though they fought valiantly, only a smattering of ships - under 5 I believe, survived.

The Japanese were commanded by Admiral Tojo - on the deck of his flagship, the Mikasa, was a young ensign named Yammamoto.

The Russians were commanded by the Mad Dag, Rear Admiral Zinovy Petrovich Rozhestvensky.

The arudous journey the Fleet made with me from Thyferra to Yaga Minor to conquer the Remnant was modeled off of this.

[Telan Desaria]

Monte Cassino is an interesting battle. The Allies were never able to take the town.

The German 12th Fallschrimjaeger Regiment was charged with defending the town - and defend they did. No troops ever set foot in the Monte Cassino abbey. It was forbidden under the direct orders of General Senger von Etterlein. He did not want to see the abbey destroyed - it was too beautiful.

However, the Allies were convinced with we mongrel germans were using it and so bombed it into oblivion. We did occupy the ruins when the abbey was destroyed but that was the first time.

The entire defense was part of the elaborate Gustav Line, designed by Alfred Kesselring, an artillery officer during the 1st World War who was transferred to the Luftwaffe in the 30s. His defense again at the Gothic line considering the meagre resources at his disposal was phenomenal. It will be noted that not until the war ended did an American soldier set foot in Northern Italy.

[Jarek T'chort]

^^The whole Italian front is another interesting area of the war. It follows the same principal as the other front in the war however, overwhelming Allied air superiority was able to carry the day. Not to mention the sheer tenacity and courage of the Allied troops fighting there.

[Telan Desaria]

Courage yes. However chivalry and gallantry did not reign. I can site one example.

After a failed attack on the heights of Cassino German stretcher bearers were sent forward to see to the wounded. American snipers killed or wounded over a dozen before the German officers were forced to pull their man back, leaving the wounded of both sides in the night for animals and insect to devour.

The British for their part, remained the sporting opponents of legend. On many occassions German doctors would give terse orders to British orderlies so that the wounded of both nations would not fall prey to the creatures of the night or die of blood loss. There is only occasion of this happening with the Americans - the Huertgen Forest.

[TieFighterPilot181st]

Unfortunately in Italy as in all theatres of war both sides committed acts that we find reprehensible today. For example, the strategic bombing by the Allies on Axis cities which contributed greatly towards the winning of the war is highly questioned. without a doubt America could never conduct another such air campaign without scathing criticism.

Tsushima was one of the key battles of the Russo-Japanese War. In fact it was the second to last naval engagement in which one side would cross the T.

THe Germans fought a brilliant action along the Gustav Line and Winter Line however it was the Allied superiority in the air and numbers which turned the tide.

[Lion El' Jonson]

Although this isn't a favorite of mine, for some reason I'm remembering how two squadrons of Swordfish Biplanes decimated Italy's fleet at Taranto.

[TieFighterPilot181st]

Just went through the Franco-Prussian War today in AP Euro. Good times yet sad. I was the only one who knew about the Prussian General Staff, Prussia's logistical and martial advantages and so forth.

[Teleran Balades]

Another victim of AP Euro?(Kidding)

I actually am more interested in more of the older wars/battlefields such as Alexander the Great's armies and the Roman legions.

[TieFighterPilot181st]

Lol, the word victim is not far from the truth.


Alexander the Great was one of the greatest generals of all time. He was the first general who really understood the principle of mobility in warfare, and was the father of actual strategy in battles.

[Teleran Balades]

I really enjoy studying ancient strategies and styles of battle.

Alexander was the master of mobility, he knew how to appease to the people, and most important of all; knew how to be ruthless and do what needs to be done and not dwell on moral obstacles. One of my personal beleifs is the honor has no place in war (no offense Telan, just a personal view based on my studies; think Machiavelli)

I don't know if there is one person I consider the greatest generals. I have a list of favorites though:

Alexander, Julius Ceasar, Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, Genghis Khan(sp?), Frederick the Great, Napolean Bonaparte, Charles XII of Sweden. To name a few

[Telan Desaria]

As far as more classical officers go, Machiavelli is definitely an excellent choice - even further back Hannibal comes to mind as the greatest Carthaginian(sp). Ghengis Khan was also a ruthless but excellent soldier as were many Roman commanders. They have to be my favorite if we are going back in those days. Give me a legion to the death over a barbarian hoarde anyday.

BTW - - -I am currently conquering the world in question as the Byzantine Empire in Medieval - Total War.

[TieFighterPilot181st]

What do people think about Otto von Bismarck. Personally I admire his cunning and strategy. He always knew who to push and how far to push them while all the while keeping his country's best interests in mind, which many leaders have failed to do.

[Lion El' Jonson]

I'm currently conquering the Mediterranean as Roman House Scipii in Rome Total War. Great fun, those mercenary elephants are. :lol

[TieFighterPilot181st]

Lol, i finished reconquering Japan a week ago, great fun. SPeaking of that I love those old mass samurai battles in history.

[Telan Desaria]

Otto von Bismarck is a hero to all of Germany. No matter the perspective of the Fatherland, it was he to whom we owe any greatness no matter how fleeting. Without the rise of a united Germany all of the states would have crumbled. Prussia may have risen and become a power in its own right but nowhere near to the level of power ever enjoyed by the Greater German Reich.

He is a hero and some might say martyr as it was his brow beating of Kaiser Wilhelm I that almost stopped WWI from starting.

Almost.

[TieFighterPilot181st]

He was one of the best thinkers ever lived. Bismarck excelled at chosing when to fight and where, and who his allies and enemies would be. Of course without the efficient structure of the General Staff and the experience and talent of the Prussian NCO corps, his task would have been much harder.

[Khendon Sevon]

One of my favorite generals is Robert E. Lee. Another is Rommel, the Desert Fox.

Additionally there are a few great Greek heroes from the civil war and Byzantium period but they’re not as well known ;)

[Loklorien s'Ilancy]

Originally posted by Khendon Sevon
Another is Rommel, the Dessert Fox.



German chocolate cakes and panzer tanks - Gilbert and Sullivan would love you.


I don't remember much from my history classes, but I've always been partial to Attila the Hun and the battles he and his men faught.

[Jarek T'chort]

Originally posted by Khendon Sevon
One of my favorite generals is Robert E. Lee. Another is Rommel, the Desert Fox.

Additionally there are a few great Greek heroes from the civil war and Byzantium period but they’re not as well known ;)
Rommel was a good commander, but he had a lot of flaws and I don't think he had a good appreciation of logistics, plus he was a little too ready to ignore orders. :)

I prefer Hasso Von Manteuffel myself, of the German generals.

[Lion El' Jonson]

Play Hearts of Iron II. It will drive you to the edge of your sanity and your appreciation for WWII stategy games.

Each turn is like digesting a history textbook and an encyclopedia at the same time. ^_^;

[Khendon Sevon]

Originally posted by Jarek T'chort
Rommel was a good commander, but he had a lot of flaws and I don't think he had a good appreciation of logistics, plus he was a little too ready to ignore orders. :)

I prefer Hasso Von Manteuffel myself, of the German generals.

Oh? You mean like participating in an assassination attempt on Hitler? I've always liked rogues.

It's not all about following orders, especially in general preference. I'd rather choose a general for his ability to command troops than for his willingness to follow a politician’s orders.

And in terms of logistics:
Are you referring to the Africa campaign? The one where the English took out the ships carrying supplies to him? Wouldn’t that be the navy’s fault, not his? Of course, he could've raped and pillaged like the Germans did in Greece... but that's another story.

[Tiberius Anar]

Originally posted by Khendon Sevon
I'd rather choose a general for his ability to command troops than for his willingness to follow a politician’s orders.


Danger Will Robinson! Danger!

The politicians are supposed to be in charge. Letting Generals run amuck is dangerous. Look what happens when one picks generals of ability and disobedience- Franco, Pinochet, six Presidents of Argentina...

[Kieran Devaneaux]

Noriega, as well. Though whether he was a general of ability is up for debate...

I'm an American Civil War nut myself - I found Jackson to be quite fascinating. I am forced to wonder how Gettysburg would have ended up if Jackson had NOT died at Chancellorsville. I think it may have been quite different!

And Grant was cool too, before he became President. :D

[Jarek T'chort]

Originally posted by Khendon Sevon
Oh? You mean like participating in an assassination attempt on Hitler? I've always liked rogues.
Wrong. He did not take an active part in the July Plot, though he knew of it.


It's not all about following orders, especially in general preference. I'd rather choose a general for his ability to command troops than for his willingness to follow a politician’s orders.

This is true, it depends on the situation. It is true, Rommel's deployment of the panzers in Normandy was restrained by Hitler - which proved detrimental to the German defense. He would have done better with a free hand.


And in terms of logistics:
Are you referring to the Africa campaign? The one where the English took out the ships carrying supplies to him? Wouldn’t that be the navy’s fault, not his? Of course, he could've raped and pillaged like the Germans did in Greece... but that's another story.
He neglected to inform his superiors of his intentions at times, which is fine when things work out, not when victory is not assured. As for logistics - it was his impulsive character that meant he sometimes disregarded the poor state of his supply lines.

Speaking of Greece, I have always admired their resolute defense in the face of the Italian invasion, for an army with next to no mobile or armored forces they did exceptionally well.

[TieFighterPilot181st]

The Greeks did do quite respectably against the Italians. For the Italians it seemed as if nothing went right during WWII, they got their asses handed to them by everyone.

[Khendon Sevon]

The Greeks have always been willing to fight when their land and freedom were threatened. They fought the Turks while being enslaved for 200 years. When the Italians invaded they weren’t about to sit around and let it happen.

From my Grandfather’s stories any and every able-bodied man quickly joined the military. The ones who knew what they were doing looked out for the ones that didn’t.

Additionally, the Italians would’ve been pushed into the sea if it weren’t for the Germans. They really saved the day for their fascist friends. My Grandfather never fought any Germans because the official military was told to go home and were stripped of their weapons.

In fact, no one (not even hunters or farmers) was allowed to have a gun, a good thing for the Germans. Greek resistance fighters continued to rebel with their meager weapons until the end of the war.

As we all probably know, horrible atrocities that can’t be called honorable (war isn’t honorable) were inflicted upon the Greek people. The slaughter of entire villages in attempts to remove the freedom fighters, the starving of the entire nation, the official mandate to kill 20 Greek men for every German killed… horrible. There’s a tree on the road to my father’s village that has a carving recalling the boys hung there.

Anyway, I digress from the purpose of the thread. Just had to share my opinion.

Edit:
I have some amazing pictures of my grandfather and his brother with German weapons taken from Italian soldiers :) Up until maybe 15 years ago my Grandfather was using a straight razor he took off a dead Italian. Crazy stuff.

[Lion El' Jonson]

Originally posted by TieFighterPilot181st
The Greeks did do quite respectably against the Italians. For the Italians it seemed as if nothing went right during WWII, they got their asses handed to them by everyone.

"BOOM!"

*Italians look around wildly*

"AHHHHH! WHERE'S OUR BATTLESHIP?!?! AND WHY ARE THERE BIPLANES?!?!" ^_^;

[Jak]

I personally like the Storming of Normandy. Its one of my favorite battles.

[Spada Elhow]

(Jak I'm pretty sure youre referring to D-Day)

Wow its really amazing to see how differently people in different countries learn about World War II, especially in Germany compared to the United States. In all of my classes, all we ever hear is "the SS were ruthless killing machines" which they were, but in Germany, i guess people are taught that the Americans are ruthless.

Yea Lion I heard another funny story in World War II about biplanes. I saw on the history channel that the great battleship Bismarck was crippled by a torpedo bomb from an old British Swordfish biplane (kinda like the X-Wing destroying the Death Star, eh?)

Id also have to say that Alexander probably was one of the greatest generals. I read that he was the person who created the phalanx and noone knew how to beat it and got slaughtered by it.

Napoleon was also a very good general, but if you think about it, Wellington is a very underappreciated General, considering he pretty much ended Napoleon's rule.

[TieFighterPilot181st]

One correction Spada. Alexander did not create the phalanx, it was the Greeks before him who did. He only improved on the phalanx.

Well if we're going into funny stories now, there's another WWII story. An American P-47 Thunderbolt was forced to suffender by two Fw-190s. The two German fighters led the American to an airfield but once in sight of the airfield the American made a break for it. The base anti-aircraft guns opened up and knocked out the German fighters and the American made it back to base without a scratch.

[Khendon Sevon]

The Spartans were the first to use the Phalanx as a mainstay military tactic, I believe. However, Alexander improved upon it greatly by adding layers of progressively longer spears.

[Spada Elhow]

Ahh, didn't know that. I was just wondering, who stopped Alexander in his conquest? Did he stop on his own, or did he stretch himself too thinly?

[Khendon Sevon]

He died from disease. Though, his campaign in India didn’t do as spectacularly as his others. If he had survived history would probably be very different—after all, he died at a relatively young age.

[Telan Desaria]

Alexander fought in his time only three picthed battles with armies arrayed on the field against one another. There he showed little tactical initiative. However, his conquests and other actions were spectacular thus not tarnishing his reputation.

[Khendon Sevon]

I disagree. However, it's history. Were you there? I wasn't.

[Telan Desaria]

I was not - -it was in an essay I viewed in my monthy edition of Military Heritage. Of all you who know me know that the ancient world is not a focus of my primary study.

[Khendon Sevon]

Ah. Interestingly enough the History Channel called Alexander the Great the greatest tactician ever and greatest leader of men. Of course, their view was supported by a several hour documentary with interviews of modern military strategists, historians, etc. I love the History Channel.

[Telan Desaria]

I enjoy it. I have not studied his battles enough to consider him a master tactician such as say, General von Francios, the real hero of the Battle of Tannenburg.

[TieFighterPilot181st]

Another person who likes the History Channel i see, good, i was beginning to think i was the only one who did.

On another note, Germany could have carried out the Schleiffen Plan had von Moltke not been stupid by shifting two corps to the eastern front and strengthening the right wing which Scheiffen vehemently opposed.
And Germany could have won WWII had they not wasted resources on the Bismarck, Tirpitz, Scharnhorst, and Gneisenau. THeir impact on the war at sea was minimal and the material used to construct them could have been better used on more U-boats or tanks.

[Darth Viscera]

Regarding the Greeks, the Persians learned long ago that if you attack Greece, you will pay dearly for it one day.

With that in mind, I don't know exactly what function Khendon's catering business serves, but I suspect it has something to do with secret Greek plans for the recapture of Thrace and Anatolia and Cyprus from the bloodthirsty Turks. I suspect he's using money from the sale of gyros to dig a really long tunnel, one wide enough to accomodate some sort of fake horse.

>_>
<_<

[Telan Desaria]

TIE - - a few words from a descendant of a Trues Feldherr

The two battleships and two cruisers you speak of were far from wastes of rescources - - their employment was a waste. The Graf von Tirpitz was deployed on one occassion as a surface raider operating out of Norway and in that time it resulted in the greatest loss of tanks during any one engagement of the war - five thousand American Shermans from England to Russia were sent to the bottom. It handily dealt with the escorting ships and wreaked more havoc on that single convoy than did any Wolfpack. The Mismarck was deployed alone with - -only at first - the lonely light cruiser Prinz Eugen as an escort. This was folly.

The useage of the German military of the war, the interference of politicians (ie Hitler/Bush/Schroder) in military affairs is what causes military defeats.

During the First World War had two corp not been sent East the Masaurian Lakes victories would not have been exploited and a rather brilliant Russian officer, Grand Prince Sergieovich, might have carried the entire Ukraine. Their presence served to push Russia from its war footing and did indeed secure our eventual victory in the East with the Treaty of Brest Litovosk.

As far as the West goes, you are considerably correct - oddly enough. Snigger/chuckle/bemused laughter. However, it was not the direct failure of the Schlieffen Plan but rather the independant actions of the commander, von Kluck, of the Second Army who caused the entire campaign to collapse. But insofar as the General Staff is concerned, you are correct again. Von Moltke the Younger, the man who orchestrated things in the Wesy, was a hoax, a fraud, and an idiot. His father crushed France with fewer resources and a harsher politicla climate. Von Moltke the Elder would have handed France its hat - -again.

[Khendon Sevon]

*blink*

Wow, Visc is really close to the truth. Ever heard of the Pan Gregorian? It's a collection of 200 Greek diners that bargain for "price" cuts. Interestingly enough… we’ve all had recent renovations… hardened silos, mmm… They’re for storing the feta cheese, really :)

[Morgan Evanar]

Originally posted by Darth Viscera
Regarding the Greeks, the Persians learned long ago that if you attack Greece, you will pay dearly for it one day. There are a limited number of "givens" in military conquest:

One: don't engage the Greeks in Greece in a long term engagement.
Two: don't engage the Persians in Persia in a long term engagement.

Three: it doesn't matter with the Chinese, they're going to assimilate you culturually in 3 generations.

[Darth Viscera]

Originally posted by Morgan Evanar
Two: don't engage the Persians in Persia in a long term engagement.


Alexander the Great would like to have a word with you

[Taataani Raurrssatta]

The key is long term. Alexander's empire died with him, in his very short lifespan.

[Darth Viscera]

Yet the Seleucid Greeks still managed to maintain control of Persia for nearly 200 more years until Mithridates I of Parthia conquered it in 139 B.C. So I suppose I should have said:


Originally posted by Darth Viscera
the Greeks would like to have a word with you

[Taataani Raurrssatta]

Yeah but that's a bit of coattail riding, now isn't it?

[Darth Viscera]

yeah, but how does that negate the fact that they defied the 2nd given? Alexander waged a war with the Persian Empire, won after 6 years, and after his death one of his successor states held onto Persia for 184 more years. It's not as if the very instant Alexander died Persia fell off the Hellenic map. 10 generations of Persians bowed to Greek Shahs.

[TieFighterPilot181st]

While the Maurasian Lakes would not have been possible without the two corps, they were not necessary. The entire predication of the Schlieffen Plan was to knock France out from the war first. This plan was sound because France was by far the stronger adversary. Russia did not have enough weapons with which to equip its men, it lacked the rail transport system which Germany enjoyed and thus the farther the Russians advanced the further on the proverbial limb they would have strung themselves on. Already, Russian armament industries could not keep up with the demand and the Western allies were the sole source of armaments, without them the Russians would have fallen. Had the two corps been kept in teh west, even given von Kluge's actions, the Pland would have carried. However we do agree that the younger von Moltke was perhaps the greatest cause of failure in the opening phase of World War I.

[Telan Desaria]

Here here - - the man was unofrtunately an idiot. I can only take solance that in the Great Beyond, he was demoted to Feldwebel by von Moltke the Elder and placed in charge of the Sanitatsabteilung for a Saxon Division.**

***sanitary battalion - -ie- -that unit charged with the digging of field-toilets.

[TieFighterPilot181st]

i actually think he's a prefect candidate for a frontal lobotomy but thats just me. I just bought a book of military anecdotes and some of them are quite funny.

During the napoleonic wars, a french soldier was quaretered along with his battalion in a village. One night he wanted to go out to a ball to meet his girlfriend but he wasn;t to leave the camp. He went to the ball where his girlfriend gave him dress and makeup as a disguise. Unfortunatley, the battalion major was there and was quite taken with the young man in women's clothes and spent the entire night getting her drinks and flirting. The next morning the soldier was brought before the major his absence from camp having been discovered. The major sentenced the soldier to 25 lashes and asked where he had been. The soldier replied that he had been at the ball to which the major said that he didnt believe. The soldier spoke last saying, "You should believe it sir. I was the young lady you danced with so often, plied with refreshments, tried too..." In response the major dismissed the case.